Killerfish's next title: Cold Waters is announced!

[Onkel Neal]

Cold Waters (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=770691721)

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/261597225396068772/3D1787D961199820E90B6FB3FE4911E7B35F0D9E/?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-format=jpeg&output-quality=95&fit=inside|637:358&composite-to%3D%2A%2C%2A%7C637%3A358&background-color=black

Spiritual Successor to the Microprose Classic “Red Storm Rising”

After tracking a Soviet landing force bound for Iceland it is time to plan your attack. Do you silently close in to torpedo the landing ships and escape during the resulting chaos? Or strike with long-range missiles but risk counterattack from the enemy escorts? Have you detected them all, could another submarine be out there listening for you? Has the hunter become the hunted? Will you survive the Cold Waters?

Inspired by the 1988 classic “Red Storm Rising”, take command a nuclear submarine in a desperate attempt to prevent “mutually assured destruction” when the Cold War gets hot and WWIII begins.

You will be tasked with intercepting convoys, amphibious landings, insertion missions and battling it out with enemy warships, submarines and aircraft. Thankfully, an arsenal of wire-guided torpedoes, anti-ship and cruise missiles and the occasional SEAL team are on board to keep the Iron Curtain at bay.

Major Features:
- Real-time naval combat
- Over 40 classes of ships and submarines all meticulously researched
- Dynamic Campaign where your performance matters
- Realistic sonar model
- Authentic Soviet combat tactics


Killerfish, you had me at "Real-time". :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

[jaop99]

I'm in! hope will be like Fleet Defender, or their Atlantic/Pacific Fleet series, of course including BVR battles!

[Oberon]

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/29/29db411914f980415f23fad69311c356278a6ab55117f4e7d9 39da2a934d4c4a.jpg

[Wolfar]

Well now you got me following this.

Red Storm was one of my all time old favorites!

:Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

Something got reset as I had well over 1,000 postings here.

Oh well....

[FPSchazly]

Umm.. Holy crap! :D:yeah:

[eddie]

Can't wait to see this!!!:yeah:

[MR. Wood]

It looks like Dangerous Waters on crack but thats just a first look but I hope its better looks great help get it green lighted on steam fellow skippers :Kaleun_Salute:

[Pepper]

+1:up:

[Nippelspanner]

Meh, I'd rather not board the hype train yet and wait for some details to shed light onto actual gameplay, you know, stuff that matters compared to flashy trailers.

[NefariousKoel]

If it's inspired by MicroProse's old Red Storm Rising, TAKE MY MONEY!

:yeah:

I still, to this day, want to play RSR on occasion. We've needed a new one, with similar scope, for quite awhile.


Actually enjoyed their previous turn-based title, although the WW2 Atlantic setting left something to be desired for a light naval strategy game, with such a huge focus on German subs leaving much less surface action (which was more challenging). The Pacific would've had a better balance.

Looks like they're using the same engine. It's not state of the art graphics, but much better than what we're used to here. Running a single sub through a long Dynamic Campaign. Oh Hell YES!

[Killerfish Games]

If it's inspired by MicroProse's old Red Storm Rising, TAKE MY MONEY!

Look familiar? :D

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/261597225396068426/6D6FD4E9360E584D81E3CABB7A3135096803610F/

[tonibamestre]

Some kind of 3D stations ?

Cheers !

[Julhelm]

In addition to the tactical map which is as accurate a depiction of the MK113/MK117 PPI display as I could research, there are displays for SVP, damage control and weapons management, but there are no 'stations' as such and no clickable station panels as the game is primarily keyboard-driven. Instead there's a secondary display overlaid at all times which is contextual and provides information about sonar contacts, weapon guidance and weapon presets.

This approach allows you to play the game much like the old Red Storm Rising or when playing DW from the tactical display, or you can also play it like a vastly improved Tom Clancy's SSN. The interface between 3rd person and 1st person tactical map is seamless and offers you the same amount of control at all times unlike the typical stations-based approach.

[Oberon]

Huh, nice touch, I was unaware there was a SOSUS station in Norway. :up: Now I know. :yep:

[moose1am]

I spend many long hours playing those older Microprose games. I didn't have the red storm rising because at that time I was only into Airplanes and not subs. But I've read a few books about WWII submarine logs and have always had an interest in WWII subs ever since. It was only later that I started buying submarine computer games. That was after my WWII flight Sim Multiplayer Days.

As I got older the slower pace of the Submarine games became more appealing. It was not possible to hit the pause button on the Multiplayer Internet WWII Flight Sim game in the middle of a hot multiplane dogfight at 25,000 ft AMSL.

But with a single player game I was always trying to learn what I was doing right or wrong and used the pause button often. I'd pause the game and go read the manual for tips on what to do.

[moose1am]

[QUOTE=Pacific Fleet;2437764]Look familiar? :D

[IMG]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/261597225396068426/6D6FD4E9360E584D81E3CABB7A3135096803610F/QUOTE]


Deleted the Image picture to save some bandwidth. I hope. But I love the look of that map. Really looks cool. I'm in the mood for a new sub game that's made to work with Microsoft Windows 10 out of the box.

[moose1am]

I'm in! hope will be like Fleet Defender, or their Atlantic/Pacific Fleet series, of course including BVR battles!

I still have the game Fleet Defender on my book shelf gathering dust. The computer that I played that game on is still in my possession. I took it to my parents house and left it out there. 386SX CPU and 3.5" floppy disk drive. I tried playing it on my HP Pentium CPU based computer using Windows 95 and 98 but never could get the Gold Edition CD to work with my sound card and that computer. I tried my best to get the config.sys and autoexec.bat files configured to work with this game. But I could not get them configured to load the game up on the CD drive and still have enough memory to run the game properly. I did manage to get both these old computer to run Pacific Air Wars so some extent. I could play the game in strategy mode but not really fly the planes well due to lag and the sound card and cd player's configuring problems.

I was able to play Silent Hunter 1 and II and the Destroyer Command games on my Dell Computer which had an intel 1 MHz CPU. It had a CD/DVD player and I didn't even try to configure Windows XP to run those old Microprose games that I loved.

I played all those old games on my Packard Bell 398SX computer running windows 3.1 and DOS 5 or 6.

Fleet Defender was one of my favorite even though it was never smooth and was laggy as hell on my 386SX computer. I tried to add more RAM but broke one of the tabs on the Ram slots that holds the SIMM Chip in place tight and could only use have the max amount of ram. I was thinking that adding twice as much ram would have helped the game run smoother. It had to access the hard drive a lot and that slowed the game down. If more of the game data was in the actual RAM I figured the game would play much smoother. To fix the problem I figured I would have to replace the entire mother board before I could get all the ram I needed . Those tiny black pieces of plastic clips were easy to break off the ram slot if one didn't know how to install the SIMM thing in the slot properly. That was my very first IBM type computer. Before that I played games on an Atari 800 and an Atari 130 XE computer and used 5.25" floppy disks. That system never did get a Hard Drive. And quite frankly I was not that aware of how much faster a hard drive would have been at the time. And I still have those two computers and the drives that went with them. :). I have a hard time letting go of my computer stuff. Half my house has old software on the shelves and hold computers sitting all over the place.

[Niume]

This game is going to be released this year probably

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/770691721/343787920118135549/

[FPSchazly]

This game is going to be released this year probably

http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/770691721/343787920118135549/

In another thread on there, the developer said more likely it will be released early to mid next year.

[MekStark]

still few months before release, patience guys

[Aktungbby]

MekStark!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Julhelm]

In another thread on there, the developer said more likely it will be released early to mid next year.
Well as much as we are aiming for christmas, more realistically it'll probably be early next year. Our initial time estimates always end up being too optimistic.

[FPSchazly]

Well as much as we are aiming for christmas, more realistically it'll probably be early next year. Our initial time estimates always end up being too optimistic.

Ahoy!

That's how it seems to go in every field with deadlines haha (mine included)

[Hitman]

If it's inspired by MicroProse's old Red Storm Rising, TAKE MY MONEY!

And mine!!!! Here, here! :Kaleun_Cheers:

[biosthetique]

If it offers as a minimum the same possibilities offered by "Dangerous Waters" and even BEYOND, I am in, as in can be!:03:

[jaop99]

[QUOTE=Pacific Fleet;2437764]Look familiar? :D

[IMG]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/261597225396068426/6D6FD4E9360E584D81E3CABB7A3135096803610F/QUOTE]


Deleted the Image picture to save some bandwidth. I hope. But I love the look of that map. Really looks cool. I'm in the mood for a new sub game that's made to work with Microsoft Windows 10 out of the box.

I had the Microprose fleet defender and played for years, but I was wrong to cite the game, actually I meant that Cold Waters be at the style of Jane's Fleet Command with 3rd person option of course!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_Command

[biosthetique]

I had a brief conversation yesterday with one of the developer, and it appears that there are realistic sensors, realistic weapons pre-sets and realistic sound propagation physics.

A wet dream come true! :Kaleun_Wink:

[Overkill]

:lurk:

[nikimcbee]

If it's inspired by MicroProse's old Red Storm Rising, TAKE MY MONEY!

:yeah:

I still, to this day, want to play RSR on occasion. We've needed a new one, with similar scope, for quite awhile.


Actually enjoyed their previous turn-based title, although the WW2 Atlantic setting left something to be desired for a light naval strategy game, with such a huge focus on German subs leaving much less surface action (which was more challenging). The Pacific would've had a better balance.

Looks like they're using the same engine. It's not state of the art graphics, but much better than what we're used to here. Running a single sub through a long Dynamic Campaign. Oh Hell YES!

Ditto:Kaleun_Salute: Love RSR!

I really enjoy Atlantic Fleet.
:Kaleun_Applaud:

[tonibamestre]

So......we ll be able to be in command of, how many vessel type ?

Some kind of focusing into graphics/effects would be pretty intersting, even at a higher price.

Keep up the good job

[Julhelm]

So......we ll be able to be in command of, how many vessel type ?
Initially Skipjack, Permit, Sturgeon and Los Angeles Flt 1 classes.

Some kind of focusing into graphics/effects would be pretty intersting, even at a higher price.
What does that mean?

[tonibamestre]

Well, excuse my lack of info at this moment but what graphics can we expect?

And..... no Nukes for the moment ?

[Julhelm]

Well the trailer and screenshots are all actual gameplay, so that's what the game looks like.

The playable subs are all nuclear subs.

[tonibamestre]

Just have seen it, stunning ! thanks . Will you include later on the Ohio class and Typhoon ?

[Jimbuna]

It certainly looks promising :cool:

[Julhelm]

Just have seen it, stunning ! thanks . Will you include later on the Ohio class and Typhoon ?
Typhoon is already in the game along with Delta III and Delta IV. You will be hunting them in the bastions.

[tonibamestre]

So.....couldbe interesting to depart from a naval base and prepare the subs for the hunting ? Loading of torpedoes , missiles and food .

[makman94]

hello Pacific Fleet,

Is the gameplay the same arcadish style as in atlantic-pacific fleet ?

what do you mean when you say ''Realistic sonar model'' ?

When you are ready ,show some of its gameplay

[Julhelm]

No, it doesn't play like Pacific Fleet at all. It plays much like a 3D version of Red Storm Rising, that is, it's realtime and focuses heavily on tactics and paying attention to details.

Realistic sonar model means our acoustics model simulates such features as surface duct, convergence, thermoclines, sea state and shadow zones, to name a few.

[Nippelspanner]

No, it doesn't play like Pacific Fleet at all. It plays much like a 3D version of Red Storm Rising, that is, it's realtime and focuses heavily on tactics and paying attention to details.

Realistic sonar model means our acoustics model simulates such features as surface duct, convergence, thermoclines, sea state and shadow zones, to name a few.
Does that include different climate zones as well?
Like, modeling the Barents sea differently than the Pacific for example?

Also, I stumbled over:
- Authentic Soviet combat tactics
Aka: We can only play as NATO?

[Julhelm]

Does that include different climate zones as well?
Like, modeling the Barents sea differently than the Pacific for example?
Yes, we have different climate zones in the game.

We can only play as NATO?
Initially, yes. If the game does well we'll most probably do a Soviet campaign.

[Nippelspanner]

Yes, we have different climate zones in the game.


Initially, yes. If the game does well we'll most probably do a Soviet campaign.
Sounds good!
That leads to another question, you mentioned campaign.
What about single scenarios and a mission editor as we know it from Dangerous Waters? Or more general: Will this game be a sandbox, where players can do what they want, create own scenarios etc (like in DW), or rather a linear experience?

[Julhelm]

It's a dynamic campaign where the Soviets constantly try to conquer NATO territory. So for instance if you fail to stop a landing force bound for Iceland, you lose Iceland and thus SOSUS coverage from the Faeroes to Greenland, as well as regular ASW air patrols in that area. Or you may be tasked with intercepting a submarine tender but just detected a surface taskforce obviously trying to break out into the North Atlantic convoy routes through the Denmark Strait - decisions, decisions.

Linear is not how I would describe it.

There will be single missions and hopefully some kind of custom mission editing function. However unlike DW, our missions don't use any scripting at all.

So I guess the short answer is that it's more of a sandbox.

[Pirate]

Yes, we have different climate zones in the game.


Initially, yes. If the game does well we'll most probably do a Soviet campaign.

I would start off with soviet campaign first and add nato campaign later.
Just like with wwii subsims that playing on the u-boat side is more appealing and are generally more successful, I feel with cold war would also be more appealing on the soviet side.

[PL_Cmd_Jacek]

There will be single missions and hopefully some kind of custom mission editing function. However unlike DW, our missions don't use any scripting at all.

So I guess the short answer is that it's more of a sandbox.

Hi,

is there any plan for multiplayer ?

:Kaleun_Salute:

[stormrider_sp]

One question: Will there be a 3d interior like those of Silent Hunter series? I find that to be very immersive.

[Julhelm]

No. Since there are no crew stations a 3D interior would serve little purpose.

[keltos01]

It's a dynamic campaign where the Soviets constantly try to conquer NATO territory. So for instance if you fail to stop a landing force bound for Iceland, you lose Iceland and thus SOSUS coverage from the Faeroes to Greenland, as well as regular ASW air patrols in that area. Or you may be tasked with intercepting a submarine tender but just detected a surface taskforce obviously trying to break out into the North Atlantic convoy routes through the Denmark Strait - decisions, decisions.

Linear is not how I would describe it.

There will be single missions and hopefully some kind of custom mission editing function. However unlike DW, our missions don't use any scripting at all.

So I guess the short answer is that it's more of a sandbox.

Finally a subsim with a Dynamic Campaign !!! :up:

I got tired of just sinking ships and having no influence on the outcome of the game/war !

Looking forward to it then !

Regards

Keltos

[Mike Abberton]

This just keeps sounding better and better. Very excited and looking forward to more news.

Mike

[Nippelspanner]

No. Since there are no crew stations a 3D interior would serve little purpose.
What do you mean by no crew stations?
What does the interface look like, I mean, won't we have stations like in DW, Sonar etc.?

[Pirate]

Humm... I got the feeling that it won't replace DW cause it won't be a true simulation.
Maybe a strategy game with some elements simulated?!

[Nippelspanner]

Humm... I got the feeling that it won't replace DW
Me neither, but I don't know for sure, so I ask specific questions instead of blindly boarding the hype train already acting as if this will be the next DW (some people here seem to think that).

[Julhelm]

Let me just quote myself from the Steam forums:

The long answer is that it depends on what your definition of realism is. We've elected to focus on realistic weapons, sensors and acoustics. Our acoustics model simulates convergence zones, surface ducts, bottom bounce and shadow zones, to name a few, and our weapons and sensors are modelled according to their real-life performance. Overall we've designed our systems to perform as close to real life as is possible while still providing for a fun gameplay experience without the frustratingly steep learning curve that is common with more procedural sims. What we don't do is micromanagement of individual sonar panels or have you pushing buttons on a faux torpedo launch console.

Firecontrol is consolidated much like it was in Red Storm Rising. Basically there is a TMA process running on any contact, and the targets will show up on the tactical display where your crew thinks they are. Only when solution confidence grows over 85% are the contacts continuously plotted and visible in external views. The speed of the TMA process depends on signal strength, bearing rate, if the target is classified, and whether or not the target is maneuvering. You may select any contact as a target of interest, and it will be prioritized by the TMA process. This simulates the timesharing of trackers aboard real subs.

If there is no time for passive TMA (like in a knife fight scenario) you can use active sonar for a rapid fire solution. Against surface ships you can use passive sensors like ESM or the periscope. There is also active radar, which is useful for BVR attacks on targets who cannot attack you, such as merchants and landing craft. In this scenario ESM is useful for determining whether or not any escorts are around that may counterattack.

Weapons run to a preset waypoint where they will then go active. The FCS will suggest a gyro angle and run-to-enable based on the current solution, but you can override this if you want to. If you launch weapons from 3rd person, they will use the camera bearing along with the suggested run-to-enable distance. If you coordinate your attack from the tactical plot, you get to manually set the waypoint by drag-and-click.

You can change weapon presets before launch or after launch depending on if the wire is intact.

Settings include search patterns, run depth and for missiles whether or not to conduct a pop-up or wavetop attack and the seeker FOV. If you have a wire on your Mk48's you can manually change search patterns or run depth or manually steer the weapon (again from the tactical plot or 3rd person depending on your preference) if the enemy is employing decoys and knuckles as they evade. The torpedoes have a two-way datalink and will send their own sonar data to your FCS when they acquire a target.

This system allows you to concentrate on tactics without having to worry about micromanagement of the various consoles and control panels around the sub.

The tactical plot itself is as reasonable a depiction as research made possible of the MK-117 FCS running on a MK81 console, as would have been fitted to most front-line SSN's during the 80's.

You do manage weapon loadout, weapon presets as well as firecontrol. We use a waypoint system which allows you to manually set run-to-enable and gyro angle with an intuitive drag-and-click interface on the tactical map OR camera bearing + FCS suggested run-to-enable if in external camera mode. As long as you have a wire on the torpedo, you may override it and issue new search modes, run depth or manually steer it in azimuth. If it hasn't activated yet, you can set a new RTE waypoint for it.

The FCS assumes that your crew is timesharing the available trackers except for one, which is reserved for whichever contact you designate as a contact of interest and is prioritized during the TMA process. The Mk48's also feature a datalink which is capable of providing your FCS with target information derived from the torpedo's sensors, in effect allowing you to use it as an offboard sensor.

I think it's important to remember that DW is a commercial version of a USN training simulator while ours is a tactical game about submarine combat if WW3 happened in the mid-80's.

During early development we went through several concepts including the traditional DW-like stations approach and we rejected these as providing to sterile an experience, and elected to start with what amounts to a 'clean sheet' design. If you want a very technically accurate but sterile simulation where time-bearing waterfall displays are modelled exactly true to life, then DW already does that. But you have to contend with canned scenarios where winning strategies can be learned. Whereas our game is about commanding a submarine in a real war, where tactical and strategic choices carry consequences in the bigger picture and you can never be sure what awaits you when you encounter the enemy. It's really two entirely different experiences.

[FPSchazly]

All sounds fantastic! At this point in my DW "career" (lol?) I'm always looking for the experiences I've yet to play, to see how I react in a new scenario, as that is the most fun in my opinion. I look forward to it.

You know what game Cold Waters is most like? Cold Waters!

I think it's important to remember that we're talking about video games and the number one thing is that a video game is supposed to be fun. This game sounds very fun!

[Onkel Neal]

Let me just quote myself from the Steam forums:

The long answer is that it depends on what your definition of realism is. We've elected to focus on realistic weapons, sensors and acoustics. ...

I think it's important to remember that DW is a commercial version of a USN training simulator while ours is a tactical game about submarine combat if WW3 happened in the mid-80's.

During early development we went through several concepts including the traditional DW-like stations approach and we rejected these as providing to sterile an experience, and elected to start with what amounts to a 'clean sheet' design. If you want a very technically accurate but sterile simulation where time-bearing waterfall displays are modelled exactly true to life, then DW already does that. But you have to contend with canned scenarios where winning strategies can be learned. Whereas our game is about commanding a submarine in a real war, where tactical and strategic choices carry consequences in the bigger picture and you can never be sure what awaits you when you encounter the enemy. It's really two entirely different experiences.


Good summary. I think Cold Waters can achieve a great level of interesting gameplay and realism without necessarily adopting the full-on tactical displays approach of DW and Sub Command. There certainly is enough room to have both styles of modern naval gameplay.

[Oberon]

Here's an example of gameplay from the old Red Storm Rising, to give a sort of idea of what Cold Waters is aiming at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfmCvduacqU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naYpXSnr_-g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Gh0liza1Q

[Pirate]

Here's an example of gameplay from the old Red Storm Rising, to give a sort of idea of what Cold Waters is aiming at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfmCvduacqU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naYpXSnr_-g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Gh0liza1Q

Thanks, I never played RSR back in the old days so I never got to know it, back then I used to play extensively "688 Attack Sub" by John Ratcliff.

[jaop99]

Only submarines will be playables? or all kind of maritime platforms?

[Hawk66]

I believe only L.A sub (?) but it will be moddable (as well by the community)...

[Julhelm]

Skipjack, Permit, Sturgeon and LA are all playable.

[jaop99]

No Russian sub playables? In Atlantic Fleet you can be British or German, why not in this game?

[subunit]

No Russian sub playables? In Atlantic Fleet you can be British or German, why not in this game?

The dynamic campaign in AF was the weakest part of the game next to subs. I would rather see them nail one dynamic campaign before they try to have one for each side, personally.

[Hawk66]

@Julhelm: I'm a big fan of Red Storm Rising, so can't wait for your sim :)

Maybe you could consider the following points:

- ASW done by helos is very weak in RSR (only single sonobuoy, no lines of sonobuys, no real life tactics applied here)
- ASW planes completely missing in RSR (tactical battle)
- Frankly, I am not sure by myself but I have the gutfeeling that the 'mirror contact' challenge, dealing with the towed array, should be somehow included, since this is one of the biggest cons of the TA

Any thoughts on this ?

[biosthetique]

That sounds like an awesome tactical game for the fans of DW and SSN.

And I love the need for attention to detail and realistic underwater sound propagation which will be different from the mixed layer, the surface channel, thermocline and to the isothermal.
:Kaleun_Applaud:
Just one question any plans for MP?....Like in the good old days!

[Julhelm]

@Julhelm: I'm a big fan of Red Storm Rising, so can't wait for your sim :)

Maybe you could consider the following points:

- ASW done by helos is very weak in RSR (only single sonobuoy, no lines of sonobuys, no real life tactics applied here)
- ASW planes completely missing in RSR (tactical battle)
- Frankly, I am not sure by myself but I have the gutfeeling that the 'mirror contact' challenge, dealing with the towed array, should be somehow included, since this is one of the biggest cons of the TA

Any thoughts on this ?
There can be multiple helos in combat, and they generally screen the convoy, flying from spot to spot listening with their dipping sonars, until they detect you. When they do, they'll head in your direction dropping sonobouys and listening with their dipping sonars. They operate in pairs so one helo will track you while the other goes for the kill. They can carry either depth charges or torpedoes.

The game also features both the Il-38 and Tu-142, which may also show up in combat. How they operate depends on if you are detected during transit. If you have been, they may already be dropping sonobuy barriers at the beginning of combat. If not, they will be screening the taskforce and when someone detects you, they will be vectored towards your position, dropping sonobouys and attacking you with bombs or torpedoes. The enemies are datalinked, so if a surface ship or helo has a contact on you, they may call down fire from the loitering aircraft.

As for the ambigous contact with the TA, IIRC all you had to do to resolve it in SC/DW was to make a turn and watch which contact didn't move. In most cases you will already know the general direction the enemy is coming from courtesy of intel reports and convergence zone detection so that makes the feature as such kind of moot.

[CCIP]

Oh gosh.

I just learned about this. Very excited and wishing you all the best! RSR is still a game design classic that in many ways was never topped, and I would be very happy indeed to see some of the good things about it revisited :up:

[Oberon]

Wow, sounds like ASW aircraft are going to be a real menace!


Perfect! :yeah:

[strykerpsg]

Now that they've announced a potential for additional playable units beyond the sub, take my money! You already had me at realistic sensors and modern sub play.

[Italian Captain]

I'm looking forward to get this game!!

:Kaleun_Applaud::Kaleun_Applaud:

[Wassner]

Where is the best place to follow the development on this game?

[Kaye T. Bai]

A modern sub game? About time! :up:

Hopefully the game will be moddable so we can add newer units. :)

[tonibamestre]

Yeah, to be in Command of surface vessels could be cool aswell, specially Carriers .

[FPSchazly]

As for the ambigous contact with the TA, IIRC all you had to do to resolve it in SC/DW was to make a turn and watch which contact didn't move. In most cases you will already know the general direction the enemy is coming from courtesy of intel reports and convergence zone detection so that makes the feature as such kind of moot.

It is your guys game, but I would say it should be included. I've created a crude sketch using Dangerous Waters NavMap symbology:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7529/29673122144_3ff8b23029_b.jpg
(please forgive me if some of the colors are incorrect, I am colorblind :D)

You know the general direction the enemy is coming from, but if you're headed straight towards the enemy, you can get a situation like this where you don't know which one is true. If you end up going with the starboard reciprocal, you're going to get a course that is heading more south southeast than the true contact which is headed west southwest.

I'm not sure how you guys are handling sonar right now, but I think this is something that should be included, or at least considered, in some fashion.

[Nippelspanner]

(please forgive me if some of the colors are incorrect, I am colorblind :D)
They are spot on. Or I'm colorblind as well. :o

[Crimguy]

Red Storm Rising was the first simulation I ever played, in 1989 or so. Then got Wolfpack, followed by 688, and every SSI game that came out. Great stuff.

Good luck with it, you'll certainly get my kopeks :Kaleun_Cheers:

[Hawk66]

It is your guys game, but I would say it should be included. I've created a crude sketch using Dangerous Waters NavMap symbology:


You know the general direction the enemy is coming from, but if you're headed straight towards the enemy, you can get a situation like this where you don't know which one is true. If you end up going with the starboard reciprocal, you're going to get a course that is heading more south southeast than the true contact which is headed west southwest.

I'm not sure how you guys are handling sonar right now, but I think this is something that should be included, or at least considered, in some fashion.

I agree fully to FPSchazly. Pls reconsider the TA handling...this is one the weakspots of RSR...

[Julhelm]

But all you have to do to resolve the ambiguity is to make the array non-linear - ie: turn the boat. So it would only ever be much of an issue when you first detect someone. And we handle initial detection on the strategic layer. I just can't see how it is tactically significant other than in the very early stages of an approach, like detecting someone in the 1st or 2nd convergence zone.

[Hawk66]

But you do not always have contact to all subs in the strategic layer, don't you...for instance a very quiet diesel sub...

[FPSchazly]

But all you have to do to resolve the ambiguity is to make the array non-linear - ie: turn the boat. So it would only ever be much of an issue when you first detect someone. And we handle initial detection on the strategic layer. I just can't see how it is tactically significant other than in the very early stages of an approach, like detecting someone in the 1st or 2nd convergence zone.

It's just that it's something that doesn't get resolved until either a) you see the boat in question on a fixed array or b) you change your course. When I'm playing DW, changing course to resolve bearing ambiguities is something that has to factor into my tactical picture. Now, given your convergence zone scenario, I imagine seeing the contact appear in two convergence zones mathematically dictates that it can only be one of those mirror contacts. However, previously undetected enemy subs can enter the tactical picture when you're in close enough that convergence zones don't matter.

I also have a second question that I meant to ask: are you going to have less than 100% confident intel? As in, intel that doesn't pan out, or incorrectly estimates enemy strength? Anything along those lines?

[Julhelm]

Yes you will, it works exactly like RSR did. And I don't really see what the ambiguity adds in terms of fun. If we were to put that in, we'd have to redesign the AI to take the false bearings into account, which means a lot of development time that could be better spent on other things, like more varied enemy tactics or other campaigns at launch. If you play DW with sonar and TMA autocrew, the bearing ambiguity becomes a non-issue, so I don't see an argument for adding it other than 'realism'.

[Julhelm]

The intel is never 100% accurate. Briefings will tell you the type of target, but the intel you get during strategic transit only discriminates between submerged and surface groups. Since there can be more than one you'll have to track them and determine which one is your mission target.

You can say that the strategic map is the 'tracking' stage and the combat is the 'approach' stage. DW, SSN and the other games with canned missions doesn't have this distinction, nor does Silent Hunter with its completely open world.

I'd probably assume that any bearing ambiguity gets resolved at this stage. It makes the combat aspect significantly easier to manage from a design perspective.

If we'd done like Silent Hunter it would probably have been more of a factor to add, but as the game is designed, we can abstract things like this.

[EthanChan]

How about seawolf class? Will not exist in game?:wah:

[MekStark]

You know what game Cold Waters is most like? Cold Waters!

I think it's important to remember that we're talking about video games and the number one thing is that a video game is supposed to be fun. This game sounds very fun!

Dear FPSchazly that is pretty much how we at Killerfish see it. Coming from one obscure airplanes simulations series modding community I can say that the highest fidelity approach of some developers killed a bit of almost three decades flightsimming passion in me. So yeah we want CW to be 1) fun 2) realistic game. Julhelm already explained in depth how our systems works.

[tonibamestre]

So......... I guess we will be able to give some kind of sub scort to US Navy and allied surface Battle Groups . How many CV classes do you plan to implement ? Would be nice,to have wide range of fleet CVs, USS Coral Sea, Forrestal class, Kitty Hawk, Big E, and if possible the first Nimitz .

[Julhelm]

The only carriers in the game are the Moskva and Kiev classes. I would model the US fleet for when we do a Soviet campaign but this is a huge task.

[Italian Captain]

You know the general direction the enemy is coming from, but if you're headed straight towards the enemy, you can get a situation like this where you don't know which one is true. If you end up going with the starboard reciprocal, you're going to get a course that is heading more south southeast than the true contact which is headed west southwest.

I'm not sure how you guys are handling sonar right now, but I think this is something that should be included, or at least considered, in some fashion.

Totally agree...

[Foxendown]

This sim has huge potential and I'm looking forward to it while hoping the developers will get all the time they need to get it right. The video and the screenshots are very impressive showing off the same superb 3d modela as AF and the sea effects are outstanding. Just one worry niggling away at me though.

I have never played Red Storm Rising but reading a bit about it suggests it was one SSN versus a whole Soviet Fleet. Back then that was the style adopted in a number of games because of computer limitations e.g. Falcon AT which I did play a lot which was one F-16 versus dozens of MiGs and SAM systems. You could win because you had a super plane. That seems to be an outdated model for a sim today. Any sim of modern naval warfare needs to represent a concerted effort by both sides. So, while you may be the captain of a single sub (which is fine by me) there needs in the background to be a wider tactical situation which you can influence and which can also have an impact on you.

I fully appreciate that modelling the whole NATO fleet in 3d would be impracticable, but I hope it will still be present and active on the map as well as other NATO subs. Modern subs do of course operate out of contact for periods of time but over a campaign you would expect them to send and receive a great deal of tactical info and to have some idea of what is going on in the big picture.

Now this may be exactly what is intended. The map screenshot shows a huge area, surely this can't be the hunting ground for just one SSN? Pretty desperate odds if the SSN is realistically modelled. I can see that there are also NATO aircraft on the map which raises my hopes that there will be a wider background campaign going on.

[Julhelm]

The other NATO forces exist in the campaign, but they are abstracted in so far you do not directly interface with them. Whether you perform your mission orders or not influences the big picture: NATO CVBGs and convoys rely on you to successfully deal with potential threats against them. You do get position updates from reconaissance aircraft, SOSUS and satellites and if you ignore enemy forces, they will cause friendly casualities and impact the overall war. But other than mission-critical info, as far as command is concerned, you're on a need to know basis :)

[Foxendown]

Many thanks Julhelm. Well that sounds like a judicious compromise and I feel reassured that this sim has every chance of being realistic and immersive.

I suppose that rules out some situations though. It won't be possible to pick up NATO units on your sensors will it? So if you are screening a NATO carrier group or convoy you will always be out of sensor range? Unlike DW you will have limited freedom to navigate I assume and in 3d only when in combat and unable to call on other NATO units for help? All that seems inevitable and reasonable given the limitations you face in creating so many platforms in detail.

However it doesn't rule out consecutive co-ordinated attacks does it e.g. you locate convoy and report its position then other NATO units attack it "on map"? I'm quite interested in the way subs can gather intelligence and effect recon and I think that would be a good element to incorporate, if you are not already doing so.

[Philipp_Thomsen]

Ok so all we have to do is replace all these units with WW2 units and we're golden!

[Nikita]

I remember playing many campaigns in RSR and everyone was different. If this is the focus of CW I agree: the campaign in RSR was superb. This is the main strength of CW: RSR with DW graphics althought without stations. Real sensors in background and real physics with the captain (You) playing tactical decitions.

I wonder if there will be neutral and ally units. In RSR was your sub against enemy units only in tactical map. In strategic map you could see planes and satellites (NATO and USSR)

[Foxendown]

Nikita wrote: I wonder if there will be neutral and ally units. In RSR was your sub against enemy units only in tactical map. In strategic map you could see planes and satellites (NATO and USSR)

I think this encapsulates the issue I raised earlier, is the old RSR model as described in this thread (I've not played it) still valid? Looking at the sensor capabilities of the 688 Flt.1 the towed array has an extreme range of 70 nm, ELINT 500 nm, RWR 120 nm. If you are suicidal and surface to use radar, the range is 90 nm. It would be odd to me if you could never pick up friendly contacts in the 3d tactical view and that you are always the lone wolf and never working with other platforms. That suits a WWII scenario but a modern one....I'm not so sure. I would have thought you needed a back story whereby you are cut off far to the north hemmed in by Soviet forces on all sides-that would be credible.

Sorry not wishing to appear negative, this looks like a very exciting sim and I do understand the need for compromise and the art of the possible.

[Nikita]

I think this encapsulates the issue I raised earlier, is the old RSR model as described in this thread (I've not played it) still valid? Looking at the sensor capabilities of the 688 Flt.1 the towed array has an extreme range of 70 nm, ELINT 500 nm, RWR 120 nm. If you are suicidal and surface to use radar, the range is 90 nm. It would be odd to me if you could never pick up friendly contacts in the 3d tactical view and that you are always the lone wolf and never working with other platforms. That suits a WWII scenario but a modern one....I'm not so sure. I would have thought you needed a back story whereby you are cut off far to the north hemmed in by Soviet forces on all sides-that would be credible.

Sorry not wishing to appear negative, this looks like a very exciting sim and I do understand the need for compromise and the art of the possible.

I think the extreme range of sensors will be useless because the tactical map has a much smaller scope. I think CW will be RSR with actual graphics and new missions that didn't exist in RSR. But RSR was extremely fun (I played recently the original one), so I believe CW is in the correct way to make an atractive sim.

[biosthetique]

I don't know why everyone talk about "Red Storm Rising". "Cold Waters" (as per what have been presented to the public) reminds me of the game "SSN" which was based on a third person perspective, where the player was taking the Skipper tactical decisions during a conflict against China.

SSN was a game created by Tom Clancy gaming company. SSN was also a novel from Tom Clancy as was Red Storm Rising.

SSN got a review of 50 from "Unkle Neil" and was returned for refund as the "Tom Clancy SSN" review states.

I am still playing that game today on a Dos Box Win95 and in many instances (not all), it is great game. Not as great as "Dangerous Waters", but between playing "RSR" in a dos box and "SSN", I pick "SSN" everyday of the week.

To me, the future of "Cold Waters" seems very bright.:salute:

[Julhelm]

Cold Waters really takes the best features of RSR and SSN and blends them together. It plays much like SSN with the dynamic campaign and more in-depth systems simulation of RSR.

Where SSN only had rudimentary surface and airborne forces, Cold Waters features all the major types of surface warships and auxiliaries as used by the Red Banner Fleet in the 80's along with air ops and much better AI.

[biosthetique]

Cold Waters really takes the best features of RSR and SSN and blends them together. It plays much like SSN with the dynamic campaign and more in-depth systems simulation of RSR.

Where SSN only had rudimentary surface and airborne forces, Cold Waters features all the major types of surface warships and auxiliaries as used by the Red Banner Fleet in the 80's along with air ops and much better AI.

I love games fusing the best of both worlds. This is when miracles materialized. :Kaleun_Thumbs_Up:

[Niume]

Are there any news?

[Killerfish Games]

We're making excellent progress.
Just finished the final user interface and are working on upgrading the ship graphics even further for PC.

We'll be posting some new screenshots and updates on development in the next few weeks.

[cowman1009]

:Kaleun_Cheers: Looking forward to the first gameplay review!

[Hawk66]

@Devs: Could you elaborate a little about the planned mod support ?

Does modding mean more or less access to the database or can actually be new content created, like altering of the campaign etc. via scripts/coding ?

Thanks.

[Killerfish Games]

@Devs: Could you elaborate a little about the planned mod support ?

Does modding mean more or less access to the database or can actually be new content created, like altering of the campaign etc. via scripts/coding ?

Thanks.
Database edits and new content can be created.
We're making all the text data files accessible, so you can modify parameters of the ships, weapons, aircraft and sonar/sensor model. You simply put a modified text file into an "override" directory and it will use this file instead of the default. Some texture, audio and movie files can also be overridden this way.

Scripts or coding are not directly supported. However pretty much all the content of the campaign (including parameters defining unit/recon behaviour on the strategic map) is exposed allowing you to edit or even create an entire new campaign. We authored the official campaign using these same tools. New custom single missions can also be easily added.

All language is exposed too for translations and/or editing of all text content including mission briefings, event descriptions, unit descriptions, the entire user interface and message log statements.

Unfortunately new ship models and particle effects are not supported at this time.

[Topo65]

Any new screenshots, please? :Kaleun_Salivating:

[Niume]

Database edits and new content can be created.
We're making all the text data files accessible, so you can modify parameters of the ships, weapons, aircraft and sonar/sensor model. You simply put a modified text file into an "override" directory and it will use this file instead of the default. Some texture, audio and movie files can also be overridden this way.

Scripts or coding are not directly supported. However pretty much all the content of the campaign (including parameters defining unit/recon behaviour on the strategic map) is exposed allowing you to edit or even create an entire new campaign. We authored the official campaign using these same tools. New custom single missions can also be easily added.

All language is exposed too for translations and/or editing of all text content including mission briefings, event descriptions, unit descriptions, the entire user interface and message log statements.

Unfortunately new ship models and particle effects are not supported at this time.

I am happy to hear this.
It's important to make games moddable because talented modders (which we have them in subsim). Modders can extended games lifespan and quality.(Silent hunter III, Silent hunter IV,Hearts of Iron III Black ice mod)

Personally can't wait for the release?.
Are you planning to make this game full of DLC's. Or just make solid game? without expansions only updates?

[biosthetique]

Database edits and new content can be created.
We're making all the text data files accessible, so you can modify parameters of the ships, weapons, aircraft and sonar/sensor model. You simply put a modified text file into an "override" directory and it will use this file instead of the default. Some texture, audio and movie files can also be overridden this way.

Scripts or coding are not directly supported. However pretty much all the content of the campaign (including parameters defining unit/recon behaviour on the strategic map) is exposed allowing you to edit or even create an entire new campaign. We authored the official campaign using these same tools. New custom single missions can also be easily added.

All language is exposed too for translations and/or editing of all text content including mission briefings, event descriptions, unit descriptions, the entire user interface and message log statements.

Unfortunately new ship models and particle effects are not supported at this time.

Ok....That's cool!....

ETA PLEASE!

STANDING BY FOR THE ANSWER.

[Killerfish Games]

I am happy to hear this.
It's important to make games moddable because talented modders (which we have them in subsim). Modders can extended games lifespan and quality.(Silent hunter III, Silent hunter IV,Hearts of Iron III Black ice mod)

Personally can't wait for the release?.
Are you planning to make this game full of DLC's. Or just make solid game? without expansions only updates?

We totally agree. There are many more talented people out in the community than we have in house who can contribute to the game. Likely in ways we'd never imagine! So we're trying to open up the game as much as we can.

DLCs: we're not sure at this time. DLCs provide additional revenue, meaning additional resources to keep working in the game.

Release date: conservatively we'd estimate down to only months away. Perhaps out by mid-year.

[strykerpsg]

We totally agree. There are many more talented people out in the community than we have in house who can contribute to the game. Likely in ways we'd never imagine! So we're trying to open up the game as much as we can.

DLCs: we're not sure at this time. DLCs provide additional revenue, meaning additional resources to keep working in the game.

Release date: conservatively we'd estimate down to only months away. Perhaps out by mid-year.

Fantastic news on all fronts. Looking very much to the release and reliving some old school memories with new school tech and art.

[Castout]

Really looking forward to the release of Cold Waters.

Hoping the Soviet side will also be playable!

[Navigator857]

...........(*COUGH*).....BETA.......(*COUGH*)..... please.........:wah:

:Kaleun_Wink:

Jack

[Kaye T. Bai]

Ooh, the suspense! I haven't been this excited for a game since GTA V on PC back in 2015.

[nesbit]

Can't wait for this game. Will it include the Seawolf class? I realize it might have been late late cold war, but it was included in RSR if I remember correctly.

Perhaps pay for a 'seawolf' DLC?

:arrgh!:

[FPSchazly]

Can't wait for this game. Will it include the Seawolf class? I realize it might have been late late cold war, but it was included in RSR if I remember correctly.

Perhaps pay for a 'seawolf' DLC?

:arrgh!:

I believe it will *just* be the Skipjack, Permit, Sturgeon, LA (pre VLS?), and Narwhal at release.

[Nippelspanner]

Can't wait for this game. Will it include the Seawolf class? I realize it might have been late late cold war, but it was included in RSR if I remember correctly.

Perhaps pay for a 'seawolf' DLC?

:arrgh!:
No Seawolf class submarine has seen the cold war.
The first Seawolf was laid down in October 1989, rather shortly before the Soviet Union's sudden collapse.
So, without a DLC that also plays after the cold war, I see no chance for a Seawolf class submarine to appear, and from what I've gathered, the developers definitely try to stick to history/authenticity.

The Los Angeles class is way more sexy anyways! :O:

[Navigator857]

Any updates?

Jack

[denis_469]

What about US diesel subs like Guppy I,II, II or Tang for example? Nuclear subs is good, but US nave have and diesel subs like.