Question about Type VII ballast tanks

[Onkel Neal]

I'm researching the ballast tank system on Type VIIs to see how we will fit it in the game.

The Type VII had many tanks, including trim tanks, torpedo compensating tanks, MBT 1,2,3,4, & 5, regulatory tanks, and a pair? of negative tanks. I say pair, because they apparently wrap around the bottom of the sub? so you have a port and stbd pair of tanks for MBT 2, 4 and the negative tank that are connected beneath the boat?

The MBT 1, 3, and 5 seem to be a set of single tanks on the centerline of the sub.

The negative tank seems smaller that I would have expected.

In the pictures of the valves 1, 2, 3; they are painted black on U-995, any idea why? Are these possibly fuel lines?

The red bar handle, any idea what this does? What kind of valve it operates? It seems like a quick-opening valve of some kind.

The pair of red/blue chain-drive valves on the bulkhead, those are for the MBT 4, and another set are located on the opposite (stern) end of the control room, they open the vents for the MBT #2. That's what I think.

Any feedback or info is appreciated.

[Dowly]

Hey Neal,

Not sure if this is helpful (didn't go through it, because lazy):
Type VIIC Manual (English) (http://www.uboatarchive.net/Manual/Manual.htm)

[Penguin]

According to the 1940 regulations, wheels and handles used for quick-release vents had to be painted red, in the 1944 regulations they also allowed green.
Source: http://www.u-boot-archiv.de/dieboote/farben.html

The exact location of the handle is hard to see on the pic. As it is located on the top, it could have been used for the fersh air conduits to the diesel engine or the internal fresh/used air pipes. Those start just start aft of the observation scope - close to the air vents for dive bunker 2 and 4.

[Feldpost]

..., and another set are located on the opposite (stern) end of the control room, they open the vents for the MBT #2. That's what I think.


I think you thought is correct, stern of the control room is MBT#2(?)

(maybe someone can help to translate :03:)
"Handrad für die Entlüftung des Tauchbunkers 2"
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1036&pictureid=9130
Source: "Vom Original zum Modell: Uboottyp VIIC"; ISBN 3-7637-6002-4

Also take a look at 00:04: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suY06PVK_bI
(flood the MBT#4 ?)


Maybe this background can help too (it's not WWII but possible it was similar)

Definition for Bundesmarine submarines:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1036&pictureid=9128
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1036&pictureid=9129
Source: "Unterseebootbau"; ISBN 3-7637-5958-1

Lenz-/Seewasser: Seawater ;)
Kraftstoff: Fuel
Frisch-/Waschwasser: (not salty) Drinkwater
Schmieröl: oil
Lüftung: air
Druckluft: compressed air

edit: a shape of valves is given for its purpose in case of darkness

[Catfish]

The main ballast tank (= ballast tank #3) was located within the pressure hull beneath the control room. The two (!) negative buoyancy tanks (not two pairs) were located port and starboard in the "saddle". I do not think they were connected, and i do not know whether they "met" underneath at all.
I have some plans, but none with a section at that point.
Each negative buoyancy tank (=Untertriebszelle) had a capacity of 2,15 tons of seawater.
Will post here if i find something.


Copy from the Subsim meet thread, regarding the procedure for the neg. b. tanks:


From the "Tauchvorschrift für Unterseeboote":

Untertriebszellen

131. Bei Booten mit Untertriebszellen wird wie folgt verfahren: Die Untertriebszellen werden, wenn das Boot alarmtauchklar ist, über Wasser gefüllt gefahren, so daß dem Boot ein der Größe der Zellen entsprechender Untertrieb gegeben ist. Nach der Ausführung des Befehls „Fluten“ und merklicher Falltendenz werden die Untertriebszellen auf den Befehl des L.I. „Ausdrücken“ ausgedrückt.

(131. If the boat has negative buoyancy cells, the procedures are as follows: The U.-cells are being flooded when the boat is running surfaced, and in "ready to submerge" state (edit: alarmtauchklar=all men at diving positions, boat prepared for emergency dive - so .. usual condition in enemy waters), so that there is an appropriate negative buoyancy. After execution of the order "Fluten" (edit: flood the tanks!) and a perceptible tendency of falling, the cells are being blown out by order of the LI (Leitender Ingenieur).

Der beste Zeitpunkt des Ausdrückens für mittlere Boote ist eine Tiefe von etwa 8 bis 10 m, für große Boote eine Tiefe von 10 bis 12 m. Erfahrungsgemäß beruht die Wirkung der Untertriebszellen in erster Linie im schnelleren Durchbrechen durch die Wasseroberfläche beim Tauchen. Da die schnelle Erreichung großer Tiefen fast ausschließlich von der Lastigkeit und der Fahrtstufe abhängig ist (etwa 25 bis 30°, 2 x G.F.), ist es falsch, die Untertriebszellen auf größerer Tiefe auszudrücken, da der äußerst geringe Vorteil in keinem Verhältnis zu der Gefahr steht, in die das Boot in einem solchen Falle geraten kann. Insbesondere steigen der Luftverbrauch und die Ausdrückdauer ganz erheblich.

(The best time for the blowing ballast of boats of middle size is a depth of 8-10 meters, for big boats a depth of 10-12 meters.
From experience the essential effect of the U.-cells is one of breaking through the water surface during a dive. Because the reaching of greater depths is almost entirely dependent of angle and speed (ca. 25 to 30°, 2x all ahead) it is wrong to blow them out at greater depth, because the advantage would not be in due proportion to the danger, the boat will be in. Especially wastage of air and the time of the blowing ballast increase badly.)

132. L.I.: „Ausdrücken“.

Daraufhin wird das Ventil „Ausdrücken Untertriebszellen“ aufgerissen und mit höchstmöglichem Druck (20 bis 30 at) ausgedrückt. [...]


(132. LI: "Blow ballast".
With this order the "Blow U.-cell" valve will be torn open, and be blown out by the utmost pressure (20-30 at). [...]

The general procedure was to have the U.-cells being fully blown at 19 meters of depth.

[Catfish]

Anyone here has those three books from Lothar-Guenther Buchheim?
I mean those picture-books:
"Die U-Boot Fahrer"
"U-Boot Krieg"
"Zu Tode gesiegt"
Lots of pictures with explanations what can be seen on it, however not all.
If i find something about those trimming tanks..

[Feldpost]

...In the pictures of the valves 1, 2, 3; they are painted black on U-995, any idea why? Are these possibly fuel lines?

(Assumption) From the shape and location i don't think these are fuel lines. That close to the conning tower and 'shaped' like air valves these could be valves for fresh air into the different compartments of the sub(?).


...
The red bar handle, any idea what this does? What kind of valve it operates? It seems like a quick-opening valve of some kind.


(Assumption) Quick 'Entlüftung der Tauchzelle #3' (flooding of cell #3); or more likely the 'Untertriebszelle' (for quick alarm diving)?
Where is it located? - Stern / port of command room? - On the far left of the picture the vertical-scale (could be a kind of fill/pressure-indicator for a cell), could be a hint too (but when stern/port than these could be an indicator for MBT#2)...

[Feldpost]

Anyone here has those three books from Lothar-Guenther Buchheim?
I mean those picture-books:
"Die U-Boot Fahrer"
"U-Boot Krieg"
"Zu Tode gesiegt"
Lots of pictures with explanations what can be seen on it, however not all.
If i find something about those trimming tanks..

I just ran mad before my first post here since i got two Guenther Buchheim pictures-books and can't find them... but as i remember there are not that technical detailed :hmmm: but they would be great as source for graphical atmosphere impressions for 'Wolfpack' :up:

[Catfish]

Regarding the last of the 5 pictures, the two handwheels over the fore bulkhead of the control room, Buchheim writes on page 47 of his book "Die U-Boot Fahrer" that these are for the "ventilation of the two saddle tanks in the boat's center". Since there are only two exterior (saddle) tanks at the center those can be either the control wheels for the two (aft) trim tanks, or for the two (fore) negative buoyancy tanks. :hmmm:

What does "ventilation" mean here, Bucheim writes "Entlueftung". Is this for letting pressure air into the tank for "ventilation"? Or is it for flooding, opening the upper valves?

[Feldpost]

...The negative tank seems smaller that I would have expected.


What i red; were the negative-tanks (Untertriebszelle? - about 2x2m²) an aid to get the boat in stronger sea under the water line (assist to flood the main-cells especially in heavy waves from stern). I am sure there were also used for alarm-diving, but they have to been blown-free with compressed air as soon the destination depth was reached... (Source: "Unterseebootbau" page 26)

[Feldpost]

...Bucheim writes "Entlueftung". Is this for letting pressure air into the tank for "ventilation"? Or is it for flooding, opening the upper valves?

"Entlüftung" means to let the air out = flooding = opening the upper valves, nice find :up:

edit:
"ventilation of the two saddle tanks in the boat's center" => MBT #4 (Tauchbunker 4) are actualy two, port and stb. and are close to the center (slightly ahead)... i don't think that Bucheim ment a negative or trimm tank, these are the forward main-ballast tanks (?)...

[THE_MASK]

Just a thought . Playing multiplayer single missions for 1 to 2 hours .
Is this turning into Neals Trimming Tanks simulator ?

[Catfish]

This may also help:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570/U-570DesignBook.htm

Greetings,
CF

[Penguin]

Well, I just uploaded some pics for all you tank and cell geeks. :D
(I hope imgur doesn't screw up the quality, each scan is about 8Mb in size)

Pic 1 (http://i.imgur.com/0Deda3F.jpg) shows where the valves for the diving tank 2 and 4 are located (Entlüftungsventil Tauchbunker 2 + 4, bb = port) - you see a corresponding valve on the starboard side, too.

Pic 2 (http://i.imgur.com/mC7HzwI.jpg) shows the location of all central-located tanks

Pic 3 (http://i.imgur.com/ZLB69BR.jpg) shows shows that my previous assumption about the air pipe to the Diesel engine was wrong - you can see the pipe only branches to the engine room and the kitchen.

All drawings depict a 1944 type VII C
Source: Eberhard Rössler: Geschichte des deutschen U-Bootbaus, Band 1 - isbn: 3-86047-153-8

[Feldpost]

Just a thought . Playing multiplayer single missions for 1 to 2 hours .
Is this turning into Neals Trimming Tanks simulator ?



Maybe the swedes including Neal are creating the first UBoot game which can be labeled as Submarine Simulation :up:
A submarine is nothing else than an underwater plane and good trimming is a fundemental in every flight-sim... from 'Silent Service' (C64) until SH5 we only got 'tactical' simulation of submarines, but 'Wolfpack' can also get the first submarine-simulation... :yeah:

When the team thinks, get that stuff early in development into the core engine b/c it could be needed someday :up:

I am sure there will be realism-settings later for just go and keep periscope depth, but to get a game-engine which also allows you to play the LI and try to keep periscope depth at BFT9 in north atlantic while the boss ordered to keep silent as possible :sunny:

[Catfish]

The levers at the top of the control room, are for a fast opening of the upper tank valves = rapid flooding. No time to turn a wheel, just pull those levers and tear open the upper flooding valves for a crash dive.

The VIIC boats had 5 ballast tanks. They were located inside and outside of the pressure hull. The tanks located in the saddles have two parts: port and starboard! The yare therefore doubly listed in the table below.

According to the plans for type VIIc boats (from the Admiralty Technical Report on U-570), order of description:
Tank number
Between Frames
Capacity (tons sea water)
Fitted with


No. 1 (single) Main Ballast tank (rear end of the boat)
-10 to 0, external, aft of pressure hull above aft torpedo tube
31
Hand-worked vent, direct blow, exhaust blow - no Kingston valve, the bottom is open to the sea

No. 2 (double) Main Ballast and Reserve Fuel Oil tank
17-34, external, in saddle tank
11.4
Two kingston operating positions working four kingstons, one T-wrench operated emergency vent valve leading into a duct to a common quick-opening lever-operated vent for No. 2 port and No. 4 port fuel tanks, one after-end auxiliary vent leading into a duct to a common auxiliary vent for port and starboard tanks, direct blow, exhaust blow, compensating and blow-out connections. Saddle tank fuel tanks are tested to only 15 lbs./sq. in.

No. 2 Main Ballast and Reserve Fuel Oil tank
17-34, external, in saddle tank
11.4
As for No. 2 port, one T-wrench operated emergency vent valve leading into a duct to a common quick-opening lever-operated vent for No. 2 starboard and No. 4 starboard fuel tanks, one after-end auxiliary vent leading into a duct to a common auxiliary vent for port and starboard tanks.

No. 3 (single) Main Ballast. tank, internal
40-49, internal, below control room
47.75*
Four operating positions working six kingstons, direct blows, exhaust blows, two T-wrench operated emergency vent valves to port and starboard at the pressure hull to a duct which leads through the No. 2 Regulating tank at the end of which are two quick-opening lever-operated vents to the sea - tank tested to full diving depth so Kingstons could remain open at depth.

No. 4 (double) Main Ballast and Reserve Fuel Oil tank
45 1/2-62, external, in saddle tank
13.5
Two operating positions working four kingstons, one T-wrench operated emergency vent valve leading into a duct to a common quick-opening lever-operated vent for No. 2 port and No. 4 port fuel tanks, direct blow, exhaust blow, compensating and blow-out connections.

No. 4 Main Ballast and Reserve Fuel Oil tank
45 1/2-62, external, in saddle tank
13.5
As for No. 4 port, one emergency T-wrench operated vent valve leading into a duct to a common quick-opening lever-operated vent for No. 2 starboard and No. 4 starboard fuel tanks.

No. 5 (single) Main Ballast tank (at the bow of the boat)
80-106, external, forward of pressure hull surrounding forward torpedo tubes
25.3
One hand worked vent, direct blow, exhaust blow - there is no Kingston valve in this tank the bottom is open to the sea


Apart from those 5 'variable' flooding tanks, there were 'fixed' tight buoyancy tanks, 'variable' trimming tanks, fuel tanks being open to the sea at the bottom (Diesel swims on water) and fuel tanks being used for trimming - either by flooding them with seawater after being spent, or to be pumped around for trimming purposes.

I guess it is easy if you look at one system at a time :D

Generally the ballast tanks were blown out by compressed air stored in pressure bottles, not pumped out. Or, after surfacing or using a "Schnorchel" they could be fully blown out by the Diesels, having the advantage of the fatty exhaust fumes protecting the inner tanks from seawater.

During diving, tanks could only be blown out by air pressure. The bilge and auxiliary pumps were installed to empty the bilge and for trimming, not for emptying ballast tanks. Air pressure in the bottles were replenished by the Junkers compressor.

Ah whatever ;)

[Onkel Neal]

Well, I just uploaded some pics for all you tank and cell geeks. :D
(I hope imgur doesn't screw up the quality, each scan is about 8Mb in size)



Nice, thanks! Someone told me all I needed to do was ask for help in this forum and there were people who would come forward. :salute:

This may also help:
http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570/U-570DesignBook.htm

Greetings,
CF

Yes, that does help. So,it really does look like there are a series of tanks inside the "saddle tanks" blister. Wow, and that makes sense, you would not want one long tank fore and aft, any air in the tank for cause a surging effect, just like the tanker trucks I used to drive in another life. I'm still a little surprised they are not connected in some way, I guess being separate means its really important that they always fill and empty at the same rate, or the boat would take on a list.

Just a thought . Playing multiplayer single missions for 1 to 2 hours .
Is this turning into Neals Trimming Tanks simulator ?

You know me...here's the Wolfpack Training section :shucks:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/picture.php?albumid=1034&pictureid=9131

The levers at the top of the control room, are for a fast opening of the upper tank valves = rapid flooding. No time to turn a wheel, just pull those levers and tear open the upper flooding valves for a crash dive.

The VIIC boats had 5 ballast tanks. They were located inside and outside of the pressure hull. The tanks located in the saddles have two parts: port and starboard! The yare therefore doubly listed in the table below.

According to the plan...... could only be blown out by air pressure. The bilge and auxiliary pumps were installed to empty the bilge and for trimming, not for emptying ballast tanks. Air pressure in the bottles were replenished by the Junkers compressor.

Ah whatever ;)

Outstanding, put into terms I can understand. :up:

What i red; were the negative-tanks (Untertriebszelle? - about 2x2m²) an aid to get the boat in stronger sea under the water line (assist to flood the main-cells especially in heavy waves from stern). I am sure there were also used for alarm-diving, but they have to been blown-free with compressed air as soon the destination depth was reached... (Source: "Unterseebootbau" page 26)

Yes, the procedure I found on uboatarchive specifically instructs the Chief to blow the negative almost immediately after the boat takes a "noticeable descending tendency" and passes periscope depth. This means that failure to operate efficiently could cause the boat to descend to rapidly and pass the maximum safe depth. I've read many accounts of this happening on boat where the Chief was unskilled, or there was a problem with the boat. It gives our game a tremendous opportunity to add realistic, skill-based gameplay to keep things interesting.

Wolfpack Crash Dive procedure, Step #15: Chief closes vent valves for negative tank and blows tanks to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.

Thanks everyone, good stuff, and always glad to have the community involved. :rock:

[Gotmilk]

Would like to continue this interesting conversation. Going trough uboat manuals and i see three things.

1) Blowing
2) Venting
3) Flooding

I know what blowing and flooding does. What does venting do? In many places it seems to be similar to flooding but then i see stuff like this in manual standing side by side

"Vent valve for main ballast tank 3"
"Flood valve for main ballast tank 3"

What is the difference?

[Feldpost]

Ahoi Gotmilk,

on VIIC is tank #3 the middle 'Tauchzelle' (bad translation 'diving cell' :hmmm:)

There are tanks to compensate torpedos, tanks to accelerate diving... but 'Tauchzellen' are for trimm...

These tanks get a valve to let the air out off the top "Vent"; or to let the Water in from the buttom "flood"; also to "blow" compressed air into them...
eg:
go Dive: both open
go Surface: 'Vent' close, 'flood' open and 'blow' out the water through the opened 'flood' with compressed air

now comes trim:
keep Periscope depth: 'vent' close, 'flood' open and the sub 'swims' under water on the pressured air inside that tank :up:

[Gotmilk]

haha gotcha.

Thanks a lot. :)

[Sailor Steve]

Thanks a lot. :)
Wouldn't that be "tanks a lot"? :O:

[Catfish]

Wouldn't that be "tanks a lot"? :O:

No, there are only five :hmph:
(stand-in for Schroeder :O:)

[Onkel Neal]

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks :o but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

[PL_Andrev]

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.
Sounds like a magic - hope it is "full-real" mode only...
:timeout:

[Onkel Neal]

I have no idea what you mean. :-?

[Catfish]

I think this sounds too good to be true, this would be the first sub simulation ever to give you such control! :huh:

We err you :) cannot model each and every aspect of a rather complicated U-boat unless we had 50 trained online players, which will be unreasonable anyway, so this looks like a reasonable compromise :up:

[Onkel Neal]

Thanks Kai. Yeah, any game requires some compromises to keep it manageable for the player(s), but at the same time include activities that are enjoyable, add to the gameplay, and are tactically necessary. We want to include more ship management activities, since we have 4 real people managing the boat instead of the solo single player; plus we think it will be more interesting that simply pressing the "D" key or other keyboard commands. This was the dev's original concept and one of the things about Marulken that got me so excited to work with them. They don't want Wolfpack to be another subsim in the mold of SH and most of the others before it. It's time to play a different way. :yep:

[PL_Andrev]

I have no idea what you mean. :-?
#1. A lot of orders, included criticals (closing voicetube / tower hatch).
I'm afraid to ask: what with singleplayer / 2-players procedure of crash diving?

#2. Remembering this scene of Duke Nukem 3D (1996)...
http://icrontic.com/uploads/features/gaming/2011/06/DN-tinkle2.jpg

Will we able to close toilet valve after using it to prevent fate like U-1206?
:timeout:

[Catfish]

[...] Will we able to close toilet valve after using it to prevent fate like U-1206?:timeout:

Yes, and there will be an olfactorial smell generator to be plugged into the USB port, for immersion. Dial-a-shtink. :D

[Aktungbby]

http://icrontic.com/uploads/features/gaming/2011/06/DN-tinkle2.jpg

Will we able to close toilet valve after using it to prevent fate like U-1206?
:timeout:

Yes, and there will be an olfactorial smell generator to be plugged into the USB port, for immersion. Dial-a-shtink. :D
I thought this was a 'realischtiK' game development!:D Somewhere is a photo (Hans Goebeler's book?)
http://d2arxad8u2l0g7.cloudfront.net/books/1394265187l/11022760.jpg
of a US Navy chief emptying the communal Engineroom steel can prior to towing (no one else would do it:timeout:)
a very large two-handled affair used aboard the captured U-505. Now that's reality! Any one with access to the photo please help
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/DSC_0058.jpg
(<thnx Firefighter)

[rentacow]

I present the Nosulus Rift:
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/qb5z7cXQlMkgb_mGz1aRrQ6ZAf0=/400x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6963807/IMG_1952.0.JPG
http://nosulusrift.ubisoft.com/?lang=en-US

its real

[Catfish]

^ So you can sniff and smell in stereo? :D

[THE_MASK]

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks :o but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.EPIC

[THE_MASK]

Will there be something to do regarding loading torps ? 4 crew but 5 jobs etc . Which one do you leave out for the moment . I would hate to be stuck down the back the whole gametime with not much to do while in multiplayer . Maybe there could be an aft torpedo that can only be manually loaded from the rear compartment crew member . Maybe have some diesel engine maintenance or something . I would love to see the blue flames come out of the engine like in Das Boot .

[makman94]

....They don't want Wolfpack to be another subsim in the mold of SH and most of the others before it. It's time to play a different way. :yep:


hello Neal,

i think that sh series (i mean sh3 ,sh4 and sh5) are very overestimated in regard to be considered as simulators. From sh1 till sh2 things were developed smoothly in sim parts but ,after that, sh3 (...sh4...sh5) brought nothing new on sim development.
With sh3 they presented additionally on sh2 : a)some nice 3d graphics (thats ok) , b) a crew 'management' system (which is non interesting part for a simulator and the devs themselfs 'admited' that by making it automatic in sh4) and c) -and most interesting feature- the dynamic campaign.Which campaign proved not so 'dynamic' becuase of the repetation of known sunk ships or the randomness of ships following allways the same route from the same startpoints. This feature was really interesting but needed development,something that left unfinished to the next versions too.End result is that campaign left half 'dynamic' and were no any development to the only (imo) new interesting feature that sh3 presented.
On the other hand in sh3 ,sim elements that were allready built in sh2 vanished ,things like the target's dial heading,the torpedo's run time dial , the impact angle dial (which reappeard in sh4) or the elevation degrees scale in scopes and they added nothing new.
From my point of view,the point that 'saved' these 'simulators' all these years is exactly the fact that they were very easily moddable and people loved that.

For these been said and from what i am reading from subsimers all these years ,their deep desire (and mine) is a pure sub simulator.We never had that (after sh2) and next sh versions failed to deliver. i don't believe that anyone really wants one more reproduce of sh series as you wrote in your message. One more thing that history show is that 3d graphics is not making the trick anymore so the gameplay is what must be the top priority. ( graphics can be up leveled any time later)

I agree with you that it is time to play a different way but by 'different' i mean that it is time to play (at this life) a real sub simulator.That is what is really missing ,we don't have it all these years so it is wrong to say that we had it with sh3,4,5 becuase we didn't.

Don't take me wrong, i am not shooting the project here.On the contrary,i really like the project and some of its features (i have written about it on some other of my posts) , i am just putting my thoughts for a constructive (future?) development that i believe will be a real success.

Closing my message and resuming it , i would suggest to focus on three things (with that order): 1. sim elements , 2. gameplay and 3. as possible it can be...moddable.
3D Graphics can wait and can be done any time later,allready they are at an ''acceptable'' level.

ps: ''Danger from the Deep'' were on a good road and it was really sad that they discard it. Atmospheric and focused

all the best to the efforts for a making a really good game :salute:

[mambo]

First; awesome sim, congratulations and about how to operate ballast tanks, looking at the diagrams, I think: handwheel on the stern bulkhead of the control room was for ballast tank no 1 vent valves and handwheel on the forward bulkhead of the control room was for ballast tank no 5 vent valves. The levers controlling vents of both chambers of the ballast tank no. 3 starboard and port were above in the control room( and maybe no.2 and 4) so in Wolfpack we operate no 1, no 5 and negative.

[mambo]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/attachment.php?attachmentid=2809&stc=1&d=1557964388
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/attachment.php?attachmentid=2810&stc=1&d=1557964531
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/attachment.php?attachmentid=2811&stc=1&d=1557964593

[John Pancoast]

Maybe the swedes including Neal are creating the first UBoot game which can be labeled as Submarine Simulation :up:
A submarine is nothing else than an underwater plane and good trimming is a fundemental in every flight-sim... from 'Silent Service' (C64) until SH5 we only got 'tactical' simulation of submarines, but 'Wolfpack' can also get the first submarine-simulation... :yeah:

When the team thinks, get that stuff early in development into the core engine b/c it could be needed someday :up:

I am sure there will be realism-settings later for just go and keep periscope depth, but to get a game-engine which also allows you to play the LI and try to keep periscope depth at BFT9 in north atlantic while the boss ordered to keep silent as possible :sunny:


Hopefully there will be options as you say, for those who aren't interested in all this.
Fwiw, be wary of the road that things appear to be going down. Ultra-detailing desired by some was a major part in killing off flight-sims.

[Aktungbby]

Mambo!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Jojojung]

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks :o but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.



I think this might be the correct Diving procedure, but i think Point 12 is not correct. The so called "Untertriebszelle" is filled with seawater in an wartime Trip on surface.its is blow out when the bridge gets under the waterline. The "untertriebszelle" should allow a much quicker diving time.

That means that the small „untertriebszelle“ in Wolfpack should filled with seawater on surface at begin of the patrol, when the game get it right.

[Jojojung]

In a german type VIIC there are 5 different forms of ballast tanks with the correct german vocabulary:

1) Tauchzellen = MBT
2) Regelzellen = Regulation Tanks (own translation) for fitting the boat to different watertemperature, salinity, consumption of supplies etc.
3) Trimmzellen = Tanks to keep the horizontal diving position (to compensate the heavy wight of the diesel engines f.e.)
4) Untertriebszelle = crash dive Tank
5) Torpedoregelzelle = are filled immediatly when the torpedo gets out, to compensate the lost of wight and prevent a liftup of the bow

The diesel fuel was also stored in the saddle tanks outside. The fuel was swimming on the seawater in the saddletanks. When the fuel gets empty over the time, more and more seawater gets through the openings on the bottom of the saddletank and the boat gets heavier over the time. So the Regelzellen have to blow out more and more to hold the correct position.

[derstosstrupp]

In a german type VIIC there are 5 different forms of ballast tanks with the correct german vocabulary:

1) Tauchzellen = MBT
2) Regelzellen = Regulation Tanks (own translation) for fitting the boat to different watertemperature, salinity, consumption of supplies etc.
3) Trimmzellen = Tanks to keep the horizontal diving position (to compensate the heavy wight of the diesel engines f.e.)
4) Untertriebszelle = crash dive Tank
5) Torpedoregelzelle = are filled immediatly when the torpedo gets out, to compensate the lost of wight and prevent a liftup of the bow

The diesel fuel was also stored in the saddle tanks outside. The fuel was swimming on the seawater in the saddletanks. When the fuel gets empty over the time, more and more seawater gets through the openings on the bottom of the saddletank and the boat gets heavier over the time. So the Regelzellen have to blow out more and more to hold the correct position.

I’d be a big advocate of fleshing out this part of the game. As it stands now, depthkeeping is a bit too easy IMHO. Maybe build in trim and regulator tanks and introduce a randomization factor to throw the boat out of trim each mission requiring pumping fore/aft between trim tanks and use of the regulator tank (negative is kind of a proxy now for that once at depth). Would be interesting to have to pump forward/aft on firing a torpedo too.

[Jojojung]

In this picture you see the handling of the quick vents for the quick flooding of the MBT (Tauchzellen) for a crash dive.

[mambo]

Vent valve MB tank 2 and 4 (Blue)
Vent valve MB tank 3 (Green)

[KMS Mordekaiser]

Hello! I just registered at Subsim. I am excited to participate in this forum, because I am incredibly fascinated by WWI and WWII submarines. Also, I found this forum stumbling around during some research.
Be warned though: I have MANY questions.

One of these involves the saddle tanks of the Type VIIC and the stability bulges of the Italian Navy's Submarines (WWII).

From plans of a VIIC it seems the tanks were placed at the upper body of the ship. Would it be logical to place them along the whole side instead of just the upper area?

I put in an image of the plans I am referring to.

[Aktungbby]

KMS Mordekaiser!:Kaleun_Salute:

[Fidd]

Just a thought . Playing multiplayer single missions for 1 to 2 hours .
Is this turning into Neals Trimming Tanks simulator ?

Actually I think the Dive Officer has the reverse of this, as once the boat is in trim he has nothing else to do. It'd be great if one could elect to operate the 'planes and tanks to a greater degree of difficulty, and higher workload if desired. To do so it would be best if difficulty-levels were on a per-boat or even per-player basis, rather than per-lobby, allowing both boat crews and individual players to select the difficulty with which they wish to contend.

Personally, I'd like nothing better than working harder to maintain PD, or adjusting longitudinal trim and the regulated tank to deal with loss of weight due torpedoes being fired. (etc)