'Many' muslims moving back to ME

[jumpy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6585411.stm

not sure what to make of this one...

initial reaction: 'don't let the door hit you on the way out'.

However, I suspect it's a little more complicated than that. I guess it shows more loyalty to their religion than the country of their birth, which housed them, educated them etc. The cynic in me says 'tell me something I didn't know'.

Again I'm drawn to the idea that 'they' need to combat the negative view of Islam in the UK with the help of those who are willing to support them. Standing up for their rights (lol when has that ever been a non issue for Islam here?) ought to be something to fight for in a country like the UK. Sure there's a bad view of the religion right now, all the more reason for those who don't subscribe to extremism and just want to get along with their lives here to stand up and be counted, vociferously and unflinchingly. Moving out and giving up seems like a cop-out to me.

on the other hand http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6569579.stm this guy seems to have a handle on the whole business-

If there is any chance of challenging the violent "jihadi" ideology of the world's Osama bin Ladens, then it may lie in this critical reasoning and renaissance of ideas, says Ahmad.
"Take the Islamic beard issue," he says. "The Prophet Mohammed had a beard. So people say you must have a beard to be a good Muslim. But he didn't have a mobile phone, did he? He didn't drive either. So should we use one or not? These people who are trying to tell us what is or what is not Islamic are putting their intellect on hold. There is more than one way to be a Muslim."
Differences, he argues, are not always as they appear when we are living with exaggeration and fear.

Perhaps with those who deem the best choice to leave this country are doing so not out of a sense of persecution -

"Living here is not how it was. The politics and the environment has changed and people's perception of Muslims has changed dramatically. A number of incidents in UK over past 3-4 years have marred life for decent Muslims living here."

"You feel you are having to constantly prove that you're not what other people think you are. You always have to be on your guard."

- but due to an unwillingness to confront the real causes of the discontent with what many British people perceive to be the core of Islamic fundamentalism. It's easier to point fingers and say 'we're not the problem, the way you see us is' and leave than to take action to avoid this apparent tacit approval of extremism.
If I'm entirely honest in my opinion of this then I have to say it is somewhat ungrateful of them to desert their country when it needs bright, educated and moral individuals to help smooth out the creases in our towns and cities' communities.

In a sense I can understand the feelings of these people, but their attitude in this case is definitely wrong footed. I'm sure that there are some here in the UK who will see this as a sort of admission of guilt.
Either way, it does nothing to help resolve the issues regarding Muslims and extremism in the UK and the way these things are viewed, if anything it is detrimental to the very people who are effected most; a sort of vicious circle, if you see what I mean. These 'middle-class' Muslims are surely in one of the best positions to champion the success of their homeland (the UK) and the ability to communicate their Britishness to those who still need convincing should not be underestimated.

For Mrs al-Sibassi it's a difficult choice.
"That has come to my mind - discussing with like-minded friends of mine who are female and wear the hijab. Again and again, the same issue comes up, that you need to stay and fight."
But she knows her children must come first, and for her, that means a plane to the Emirates.

Everyone has their own prerogative, but running away will not serve to help anyone but themselves...
But isn't that the way with most people now? So in a sense maybe they are truly integrated now already

As usual, after some considered thought during a quieter moment in the office, I am left with more questions than answers.

[The Avon Lady]

Last one out, please turn off the lights. Thank you.

[Hitman]

There are also probably more reasons involved. You can't ignore the spectacular economic growth of the ME and oil-producing regions since the oil price skyrocketed, so those countries begin to look attractive for muslims, as the islam is official religion there. I bet if they were still poor, undeveloped countries, no muslims of britain would be interested in going there. Of course, probably that's the best policy to prevent any inmigration, i.e. ensuring the development of their origin countries:hmm:

[JSLTIGER]

Originally Posted by Hitman

There are also probably more reasons involved. You can't ignore the spectacular economic growth of the ME and oil-producing regions since the oil price skyrocketed, so those countries begin to look attractive for muslims, as the islam is official religion there. I bet if they were still poor, undeveloped countries, no muslims of britain would be interested in going there. Of course, probably that's the best policy to prevent any inmigration, i.e. ensuring the development of their origin countries:hmm:

Perhaps...but remember, once the oil runs out or stops powering the West, its back to the stone age for most of the ME (at least the Arab nations that rely solely on oil)...not an attractive thought for many, especially as its only about 50 years down the line.

[Skybird]

"Let's find a quite little place and listen for a while", just to be sure they are really going (which I doubt is representative for Europe).

If they really would get back home voluntarily without any laws, treaties, bribaries, not to mention violance needed - the better for them, for us, for all.

But I doubt this news snippet is representative for a wide-ranged and long-termed trend.

Anyway, I certainly don't hold anyone back if he wants to go back to his Islamic home in the ME. A peaceful re-separation of both the West and the Islamic sphere was always what I considered to be most unlikely solution, but to be the most desirable solution nevertheless.

[bradclark1]

What they can't seem to understand is that if the good spoke out about the bad peoples perceptions could change. However the good might be targeted by the bad for speaking out and thats a very real possibility. So what do you do? You help them out the door.

[TteFAboB]

A while ago there was a debate at the CBC sparked by Dinesh D’Souza which among other things proposed that we ally with the "good Muslims" against the Jihadi, Islamist and radical Islamists and start backing them up and helping them take the helm of Islam.

I shared the same conviction for a long time and the only drawback of such alliance is working out the problem of reciprocity. Anyway, I decided to start looking for our allies to be.

To my dissapointment, I found out that there was no one to ally with at all because they had already submitted to their Jihadi brethren. I found a defeated, passive (pacified), coward bunch of people that would not stand up for anything. They're lucky the wind isn't that strong in Britain or the snow too heavy.

[Skybird]

There are no different Islams. There is only one Islam: Muhammad's Islam. This is the basis on which all "different traditions" of Islam are founding upon. Be Islamic in the way Muhammad wanted it to be, and you are true Islamic. Reject some of his demands and regulations, and you are not Islmaic, but free to be killed if not obeying. Being sunni or shia is no issue here.

That'S what many Islamic people living in the West do not want to realise when embracing some of the Western rights and liberties, at the cost of some of the old Muhammedan practices. Muhammad did not know "some yes, some no." He only knew "all or nothing at all".

Tolerance was not really a shining characteristic of this man.

[U-533]

Originally Posted by Skybird

There are no different Islams. There is only one Islam: Muhammad's Islam. This is the basis on which all "different traditions" of Islam are founding upon. Be Islamic in the way Muhammad wanted it to be, and you are true Islamic. Reject some of his demands and regulations, and you are not Islmaic, but free to be killed if not obeying. Being sunni or shia is no issue here.

That'S what many Islamic people living in the West do not want to realise when embracing some of the Western rights and liberties, at the cost of some of the old Muhammedan practices. Muhammad did not know "some yes, some no." He only knew "all or nothing at all".

Tolerance was not really a shining characteristic of this man.

So you agree they will never be ""Politically Correct"".

And if they are then they are not true Islamics but are liars...
I think they promote lying to Infidels in oder to kill Infidels.

[wireman]

Good for them...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by U-533

I think they promote lying to Infidels in oder to kill Infidels.

Eh... let's not forget that not everybody living in the West labeling himself as "Muslim" is a man-eating monster. As a whole community, movement, cultural influence, however you name it, they are lying to us infidels, yes. But there are also many individuals (not collectives) who are serious when confessing they want to adopt to Western laws and constitutions and values. but they keep on lying to themselves about what it means to be muslim, they talk it sweet in their own imgination, and censor input of facts from science and history that could shaken their self-perception. They want - for whatever the reason is - still being regarded as something that by their deeds and decisions they alraedy partially have abandoned. These are Muslims that I call non-true Muslims. not with all, but with many of these you can come along. I did.

But a person that is truly Muslim in Muhammad's understanding - such a person is a problem for everybody - nobody's friend, all world's enemy. Such a person cannot be integrated, cannot be tamed, cannot be changed or civilised or educated. Hate, intolerance, arrogance and aggressiveness is following in his wake. Fight for survival in many obvious and not-so-obvious forms flames up wherever such people appear. - You keep them away, or you kill them, else you loose your house, your home, your identity, your culture - everything.

Concerning the first group, those that I call untrue Muslims, it nevertheless is to be demanded from them that they stop their self-ordered blindness, critically check and examione their "belief" from an outside perspective, and stand up against those who in the name of Islam claim special rights and growing influence of Islam in the West. If they do not do this, their integration fails as well, but for different reasons, and they help to propagate and support evil although having good intentions - that nevertheless do not reach far enough to stand up and make a difference. the passive silence you face when demanding etsern Muslims to raise and "make the difference" is tell-taling. And then it is the time when I say they should leave as well, sorry. You either play in our team, and our kind of game, and according to our rules, or you don't. You fit in, or you don't.

Never mistake immigration with colonization.

This European immigration problem does not compare to the immigration problems america has. Because america may be stormed by immigrants from the south as well, nevertheless these are of no different cultural origin and faith. Middle and South Americans are - Christians, and they are not about replacing laws and constitutions with the rules of some exotic and hyper-aggressive cult that aims for world domination and is totalitarian by nature.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Skybird

There are no different Islams. There is only one Islam: Muhammad's Islam. This is the basis on which all "different traditions" of Islam are founding upon. Be Islamic in the way Muhammad wanted it to be, and you are true Islamic. Reject some of his demands and regulations, and you are not Islmaic, but free to be killed if not obeying. Being sunni or shia is no issue here.

That'S what many Islamic people living in the West do not want to realise when embracing some of the Western rights and liberties, at the cost of some of the old Muhammedan practices. Muhammad did not know "some yes, some no." He only knew "all or nothing at all".

Tolerance was not really a shining characteristic of this man.

OK, so if Muslims in the West are ignoring this, surely that's a good thing?
Given that the topic is about muslims and not Islam, I think you're conflating the two.
In the same way that a lot of Catholics don't mind about abortion or stem cell research.

[U-533]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

OK, so if Muslims in the West are ignoring this, surely that's a good thing?
Given that the topic is about muslims and not Islam, I think you're conflating the two.
In the same way that a lot of Catholics don't mind about abortion or stem cell research.

Wait wait wait.......

Wait a minute....

I'am under the belief that Islam or Islam-ism is the religion and Muslims are but one flavor of believers

and when Islamists is used it's throwing them (all flavors) all in to the pile or pot...

:hmm:


.....................?..........................

umm



What?

[Skybird]

the term "islamism" is a Western invention. Like is "fundamentalism", that derives from a perception of european imperialist powers and america when the resistance to the foreigners in Marocco suddenly turned from verbal debate to violant deed, longer while ago. If you believe in Islam, than you are Muslim. Or in my terminology: you are Muhammedan, and Islam is more precisely described as Muhammedanism (without necessarily any motivation of mine to offend anybody: I just reserve the right to use the most precise terminology that has been in use for long time until before WW2). All other word construction are European's attempts to imagine a kind of Islam that is non-existant but exists in their imagination only and as a form of xyz-ism that the european approach can deal with. But true Islam is something you can't deal with. You get dealt. amnd this is what europeans try to appease by refusing the realize the harsh and aggressive truth about Islam. Allahu Akbar - what armies and conquests have not accieved for Muhammad's followers, now voluntarily is conducted by the prey. Wonder and miracle! Allah is great!

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Skybird

There are no different Islams. There is only one Islam: Muhammad's Islam. This is the basis on which all "different traditions" of Islam are founding upon. Be Islamic in the way Muhammad wanted it to be, and you are true Islamic. Reject some of his demands and regulations, and you are not Islmaic, but free to be killed if not obeying. Being sunni or shia is no issue here.

That'S what many Islamic people living in the West do not want to realise when embracing some of the Western rights and liberties, at the cost of some of the old Muhammedan practices. Muhammad did not know "some yes, some no." He only knew "all or nothing at all".

Tolerance was not really a shining characteristic of this man

Don't blame him . Religions are not cooking recipes. Accept it in block or reject it in block. No pincing and slicing. Take the package or drop the package. Otherwise it's a heresy, declare your new religion already.

Have no illusions, all the facts and arguments were thrown at D'Souza. The conclusion was completely unfavourable to his proposition both rhetorically and dialectically. That's why he managed to trigger a debate in the first place anyway.

But that's the idea. Get these "untrue Muslims" as you call them on our side against the conqueror-wannabes. Set the hostages free and turn them on their captors.