FOTRS vs TMO?

[Steiger]

I used to play TMO and loved it - what's the deal with FOTRS and how do they compare?

[Rockin Robbins]

First of all you have to be precise because there are three main versions of FOTRS. 1.2, 1.3 and 2.0.

Then there is our new project, FOTRSU, Fall of the Rising Sun Ultimate, presently at version 0.62. These are all distinct and different mods. FOTRS and all its versions were made solely by the Aces of the Deep modding group in Germany

FOTRS in all its versions was always the most beautiful of the SH4 mods. with expanded navies and great graphics tweaks. FOTRS 2.0, made for SH4 v1.4, was most beautiful of all, with the most ships and a beautiful environment. But most on Subsim couldn't play if because they had SH4 v1.5. Also 2.0 was balanced for multiplayer and very few Subsiim players do that. I styled FOTRS as the GWX of SH4.

The worst was that the AOTD mod crew was inactive. Its uploads were vanishing all over the Internet. I announced the FOTRS Ultimate Project, to bring all available versions of FOTRS home to Subsim for hosting so they would be preserved, and to form a team to get all the great graphics and sound features of FOTRS 2.0 to work in SH4 v1.5.

Our first goal was just to get all Mad_Max's 2.0 stuff working in the most recent version of SH4. Once we did so we found an unplayable game in single player mode, and we found many errors, most stemming from defects in the stock game. We've been working on those aspects for the last eight months to get FOTRSU fun to play in single player. In the meantime we've added lots of features.

But the thing we're proudest of, and which makes SH4 enter a new age is that when you center the rudder the helmsman says "Rudder amidships." That's proof of the abounding excellence of FOTRS and why it's preferrable to TMO. Also, FOTRSU can be uninstalled by JSGME, leaving you with a stock game where programming errors in TMO make permanent changes to the stock game after you uninstall.

[Steiger]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

But the thing we're proudest of, and which makes SH4 enter a new age is that when you center the rudder the helmsman says "Rudder amidships." That's proof of the abounding excellence of FOTRS and why it's preferrable to TMO.

LMFAO Robbins. Thanks for the answers - from a gameplay perspective, how does FOTRSU differ from TMO?

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

But the thing we're proudest of, and which makes SH4 enter a new age is that when you center the rudder the helmsman says "Rudder amidships." That's proof of the abounding excellence of FOTRS and why it's preferrable to TMO.

I agree - that was a great one - now, any chance anyone could add "Lookouts Below - Clear the bridge" to the dive sequence voices? Just one more bit of realism...at least according to the movies I've seen.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Steiger

LMFAO Robbins. Thanks for the answers - from a gameplay perspective, how does FOTRSU differ from TMO?

First of all, FOTRSU is very, very bloodthirsty. TMO is easy compared to FOTRSU so far and you will run into escorts that will just kill you. If they have your number, you're dead. We have Japanese escorts with side throwers.....

Also we have Japanese submarines in the game for the first time. Still working on details, but as they are now, they run around surfaced and open up with their deck gun if you get close. You can sink them with torpedoes or deck gun.

We have doubled the number of different ships on the ocean compared to TMO. We have optically perfect periscopes, TDC and binoculars. Their field of vision is correct. You can use the periscope reticle to read off measurements that are accurate. The deck in the control room cants down when you dive, up when you ascend.

You can turn BOTH radars on and off. The keyboard layout is improved over TMO. The sounds are entirely reworked, with primary and secondary batteries of capital ships having separate sounds. The graphics have been majorly improved: compare smoke in TMO with FOTRSU smoke. It's amazing.

There's a lot more but my brain is on strike. Team members, help out here!

[propbeanie]

Those forthcoming subs btw, will start shooting at you at about 8700 yards on a clear, calm day. Maybe sooner...









Mind you, watch your speakers... You have been warned...


turn 'em down, in other words, until the vids really get going...

RR's night time action one does glitch, but some of that can be interpreted as shock waves... recording a video does eat up cpu cycles, so it is to be expected, same thing in my Sole Survivor clips. Even a quad core can't keep up sometimes when recording vids. But watch the big gun smoke... listen to the shells whistle by. cool beans man...

[cdrsubron7]

Nice screenies, PB. Can't see a thing.

[propbeanie]

I'll bet you're using Internet Explorer, and your Windows is fully patched to full-lock-down mode... Read what Dowly did to fix his IE:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...24#post2486324

Can you "see" them if you click on them cdrsubron7?...

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Steiger

I used to play TMO and loved it - what's the deal with FOTRS and how do they compare?

TMO is a mod that is basically complete and has been for sometime. so feel its not fair to compare FOTRS is still being developed. However, FOTRS is on track to become THE mod for SH 4. The team is working hard and am seeing a lot of progress.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

However, FOTRS is on track to become THE mod for SH 4. The team is working hard and am seeing a lot of progress.

And that is our mission statement. We want to be the default mod for SH4. Before we can say that we have to get to v1.0 and then produce plugin mods so the player is in charge of their own game.

Especially important will be AI modes that allow beginners to play FOTRSU and progress the enemy AI as they gain skill. As great a mod as TMO is, a beginner just gets chewed up and spat out. Then they come back and wonder why we all think TMO is so great. That's a tragedy the FOTRSU team seeks to avoid.

Pssst! Don't tell Bubblehead, but we're going to lean on him for plugins later.

[RampantParanoia]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

... We want to be the default mod for SH4...

Especially important will be AI modes that allow beginners to play FOTRSU and progress the enemy AI as they gain skill...

I’ve got to say, as a long time lurker I’ve followed FOTRSU with great interest. It’s really good to see how much work you guys are putting into not only the mod but fixing age old (and newly discovered!) bugs in the base game as well. I also love your approach of the base mod and compatible plugins, an absolute stroke of genius!

FOTRSU looks to be a beautiful mod, but I’m really glad to see that you’re planning on including less hard AI. I’m a bit of a wimp when it comes to that, but I don’t want to miss out on all the great content your team are creating just because I can’t handle the escorts :P

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by RampantParanoia

I’ve got to say, as a long time lurker I’ve followed FOTRSU with great interest. It’s really good to see how much work you guys are putting into not only the mod but fixing age old (and newly discovered!) bugs in the base game as well. I also love your approach of the base mod and compatible plugins, an absolute stroke of genius!

FOTRSU looks to be a beautiful mod, but I’m really glad to see that you’re planning on including less hard AI. I’m a bit of a wimp when it comes to that, but I don’t want to miss out on all the great content your team are creating just because I can’t handle the escorts :P

If you're not enjoying the game then it's the modders' fault! We're going to do some things in FOTRSU that all of us will both love and hate.

We'll have an OTC (probably under a different name) mod where you have a perfect recognition manual with all correct measurements in it and every ship on the ocean represented. If you miss, it will be your fault unless you get a faulty torpedo. I hate this one. Many wouldn't play SH4 without it. We'll have it. I don't have the right to tell you how to play your game.

We'll have probably four different levels of enemy AI, from easy to deadlier than we have now. New players deserve to be able to see all the visual and sound improvements in FOTRSU but right now they can't survive. That's not right and we'll fix it.

Different keyboard layouts, boat skins, plotting grids, even some crazy unrealistic stuff I'm known for, all will be available as Certified FOTRSU Plugin Mods. Roll your own supermod. Coming soon to a computer near you!

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

If you're not enjoying the game then it's the modders' fault! We're going to do some things in FOTRSU that all of us will both love and hate.

We'll have an OTC (probably under a different name) mod where you have a perfect recognition manual with all correct measurements in it and every ship on the ocean represented. If you miss, it will be your fault unless you get a faulty torpedo. I hate this one. Many wouldn't play SH4 without it. We'll have it. I don't have the right to tell you how to play your game.

We'll have probably four different levels of enemy AI, from easy to deadlier than we have now. New players deserve to be able to see all the visual and sound improvements in FOTRSU but right now they can't survive. That's not right and we'll fix it.

Different keyboard layouts, boat skins, plotting grids, even some crazy unrealistic stuff I'm known for, all will be available as Certified FOTRSU Plugin Mods. Roll your own supermod. Coming soon to a computer near you!

Curious. What are you guys doing about depth charges? Changing the damage system? For me, the problem was not so much the AI being set too high in TMO. Ducimus once put it well, attacking escorted ships without getting depth charged is anticlimatic and boring.

The problem as I see it is how the damage model worked with the depth charges.Stock charges were way too powerful (TMO as well) and the damage model with only max hit points for TMO had the hull collapsing rather easily when these subs hulls were tough and could take a real beating even when much of equipment was in shambles. Billfish, Seahorse, Salmon, Halibut, are among boats that come to mind.

I tried to remedy it with my depth charge mod and it helped a lot. Now I've adjusted the sub damage model. Based on travellers model but not tank like. Hull is stronger. Combined with my depth charge mod, sub takes beating, equipment takes damage. When lost its because you took enough damage to key systems you are overhwhelmed and sink below crush depth. Sub will sink from surface if flooding. Since we have no abandon ship option and I hate the gamey special abilities "mr fix it" who repair any damaged item. I made it where things leave player stranded such as rudder as not vulnerable.

During recent testing I let a Type C CD vessel set to Veteran skill depth charge me at 350 feet. I was not evading it was a test. My boat was in shambles. Scopes smashed, radar smashed, all but 2 torpedo tubes smashed, pumps damaged, compressor damaged, aft batteries damaged soem flooding but not instant massive flooding. Dec guns and TBT smashed.I did take Balao class boat was in to 600 feet and slipped away, made it back to port. Now obviously in a non test career wont just sit there and let them get a fix , but it was a nice test.

I'll release my mod for this soon, just making some key adjustments.


I believe tough AI, with proper depth charge settings, and damage model can solve issues. I'm working on it for early war TMO RSRD now. I mean I find early war just boring in the sim since its sinking a lot of singles or when do find convoys and task forces their escorts dont have a clue lol. Perfect example was even in oct 43 in calm seas, i sunk two tankers. The aux sub chaser and momi patrol boat dropped a few charges but never came close. I had a Balao and went to 400 feet, got away with ease. Japanese were not great at ASW early on but they were not that bad lol.

Some reason the aux subchaser did not have active sonar, so I added it. Momi PB had it but it was lackluster. Likely were set to "competent" instead of veteran as many escorts in RSRD are during this time frame.

Once thing I've had to go back and change is the fleet destroyers. Many of them were neutered in RSRD. They didnt have the sensors for ASW even later. Some like Asashio had one DC rack, one empty. prevented from laying down nice patterns.

Part of my upgrade is upping escorts to veteran in 43-45 and a few to elite, making sure their sensor packages are correct for time period and have depth charges when and where they should. 31 and 42 some at left at competent some at vet. With my sim.cfg set for early war, it improves their performance but keeps its accurate for early war. So far I have all the DD's complete and they are once again, an actual threat.

I like your team's approach though Trying to make it to suit a wide audience. Not tell anyone how to play their sim.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

We'll have an OTC (probably under a different name) mod where you have a perfect recognition manual with all correct measurements in it and every ship on the ocean represented. If you miss, it will be your fault unless you get a faulty torpedo. I hate this one. Many wouldn't play SH4 without it. We'll have it. I don't have the right to tell you how to play your game.

My friend RR doesn't understand the issue of having proper working equipment compared to his "fog of war" perspective that all play should be guesswork.

If we left it up to him, his idea of realistic game play would be for us all to follow the "O'Kane" system of firing, where you get as close as you can to a target, fire at a 90 degree AoB, and expect to get hits. Lee Harvey Oswald was killed with a gut shot to the ribs on TV.....anyone can do that!

I have no tolerance for those that persist in believing a Stadimeter found range should be missing accurate range by 50%....half of what it should be. It's as if you're telling us the U.S. Military sent out rifles that fired 2 feet to the right.......just go ahead and use them........its realistic behavior! Even the first grunt firing the weapon would have figured out what to do with his inaccurate weapon, besides turning it onto the dope that handed it to him!

Double R is going to say that having a realistic measurement in the Recognition Manual is hogwash.....should never be there. The "fog of war" should prevail as the way to get a firing solution. Just guess at it, knowing the figures are wrong, and be happy with the outcome.

I can't disagree more! No Captain would have relied on knowing his figures are inaccurate and accepted the inaccurate results. He would have done something about it on his first patrol, due to nothing more than realizing his error in inaccurate measurement was just as bad as a Compass reading South when it should read East.

That's been my stand for years with this game......funny, no one complained about the nuts on, to the exact yard, figures you get when using the Sonar to give found range. But, it's breaking some "ethical rule" when a Stadimeter reading might produce a close estimate range figure?

[RampantParanoia]

But that's why the idea of making a base mod with compatible plugins is so great! You can choose to have it your way rather than how RR prefers it. Instead of it being an argument of which is best, that the mod author wins by default, it's a choice where nobody loses (provided there's a plugin mod to cover it of course lol).

I absolutely can't stand artificially hard AI. Being seen on a moonless night at 8000 yards or other impossible feats totally destroy the immersion for me, but some people like the challenge that presents and that's fine. But there will be different levels of AI so I can enjoy what suits me while others can square off with floating gods at their leisure [emoji14] That said, my personal preference would be realism over artifically easy too, but I'll take stay I can get.