Clear the Bridge! Dick O'kane method

[45_South]

Greetings all,
I am trying to get my head around manual targeting and am currently reading Dick O'kanes' Clear the Bridge (very good read too by the way).

I started out using "the Dick O'kane' method as tutorialized (don't know if that's a real word but I'm going with it) by Rockin Robbins. I understand this method and have had some success with it - set up at 90 degrees to target track, offset aiming device 10, fire as desired points cross crosshairs etc etc.

However, every attack I read about in Dick O'kanes' book goes something like this (after the initial setup) "Constant bearing - mark!"
"Set!"
"Fire!" and the first torpedo went for her big stack aft. The next fish went for her middle, and the third forward.

What I don't understand is if he is firing as the target moves across his periscope crosshair, how does he shoot aft to fwd? This implies that he in fact does not hold his scope on a pre-determined bearing to fire but rather tracks with the target from aft to fwd?

I must be missing something basic here... calling Rockin Robbins to the bridge!
p.s. I tried to find the original Dick O'kane thread to post this to but failed miserably there also

[cleverusername]

The periscope reticle has markings in degrees that show where the various components are located. So you can see that the bow, middle, and stern compartments are located at 3 degrees left, dead ahead, and 3 degrees right. Then you use the offset feature in the TDC to aim the torpedoes at those locations on the ship.

I don't believe the "Dick O'Kane" method posted on the Subsim forums is historically accurate. Dick O'Kane, trained as a wartime US submarine skipper, would have used all of the features of the TDC and position keeper as originally designed, instead of the shortcut method posted here.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by 45_South

Greetings all,
I am trying to get my head around manual targeting and am currently reading Dick O'kanes' Clear the Bridge (very good read too by the way).

I started out using "the Dick O'kane' method as tutorialized (don't know if that's a real word but I'm going with it) by Rockin Robbins. I understand this method and have had some success with it - set up at 90 degrees to target track, offset aiming device 10, fire as desired points cross crosshairs etc etc.

However, every attack I read about in Dick O'kanes' book goes something like this (after the initial setup) "Constant bearing - mark!"
"Set!"
"Fire!" and the first torpedo went for her big stack aft. The next fish went for her middle, and the third forward.

What I don't understand is if he is firing as the target moves across his periscope crosshair, how does he shoot aft to fwd? This implies that he in fact does not hold his scope on a pre-determined bearing to fire but rather tracks with the target from aft to fwd?

I must be missing something basic here... calling Rockin Robbins to the bridge!
p.s. I tried to find the original Dick O'kane thread to post this to but failed miserably there also

The clue here is in Dick O'Kane's calling "Constant bearing — mark!" Those words have a precise meaning that cleverusername doesn't believe is historically accurate. Let me put on my professor's cap and go to work here.

There are three methods of shooting torpedoes, according to the Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual, which I invite you to read to verify what I say.

The first method, and the one cleverusername refers to as "historically accurate" is the check bearing method. In the check bearing method, the captain makes the announcement "shooting will by the check bearing method" or some shorthand with the words "check bearing method" in them. This is a quick up and down of the scope to get a bearing, range and down scope. This method emphasized minimal, less than 30 second scope exposures to take a snapshot that could be plotted. They developed course, speed and bearing by multiple observations and checked the actual periscope bearing method (thus the name "check bearing method") against that of the TDC with PK on. When they were happy with the solution, they took one last observation to update bearing and range and shot with spreads set with the spread dial.

The second method is the continuous bearing method. In the continuous bearing method, the periscope is left up and constant bearings are continuously fed to the TDC to keep the TDC continuously updated with real bearing and range during the shooting of the torpedoes. As long as your speed and course are accurate, this is a very accurate way to shoot. You do expose your scope for a long time though. In certain situations it is very useful.

The third method and that referred to by Dick O'Kane in his book is the constant bearing method. There are many variations of the constant bearing method, but what they have in common is that the TDC is set for a solution and the periscope is aimed for that bearing. When the aiming point crosses the bearing you shoot, knowing the torpedo is going right where you aim.

Think of it this way. If you're shooting cute birdies out of the sky with your shotgun, there are two basic ways to get the job done. One is to sweep the shotgun across the sky with the bird until you're satisfied with the lead angle and shoot any time you want. This is the analog of the check bearing and continuous bearing methods. The second way is to anticipate a position in the sky the bird must cross, aim your gun there without moving it and squeeze off the murderous shot at the correct moment. This is the analog to the constant bearing method because your gun is aimed at a constant place in the sky. Kapeesh?

Dick O'Kane would start his attack the way we do. He'd work with the PK and tweak the inputs until his TDC was following the target perfectly. But to shoot, he'd sight ahead of the target, send a new bearing and crank the TDC bearing input backwards (more details available from Nisgeis or aaronblood) to stop the updating. We can do the same thing by clicking off the PK. Then he would wait for the target to pass by the crosshair, shooting as the part of the ship he wanted was on the line. He could do this quickly enough, sighting again ahead, waiting and shooting again to shoot his stern, MOT (middle of target), bow spread. He shot in that order to give him the maximum divergence in his spread. That made the attack more difficult to avoid if the torpedoes were spotted. Check out a John P Cromwell attack in broad daylight with a perfect longitudinal spread and you can see how easy it is to avoid a spread with no divergence.

We made it very clear when we published the Dick O'Kane method that we had no proof that Dick O'Kane ever used that exact methodology in his attacks. We did know he liked to use the constant bearing method and shoot as juicy parts of the target "crossed the wire." With the goal in mind of making a deadly attack method that eliminated every possible detail, while remaining awesomely lethal, what we named the Dick O'Kane attack is an adaptation of Wahoo's Fast-90 U-boat method, but using the capability of the American TDC, which automatically calculates the lead angle and allows you to set up the attack before you even see your target.

The real Dick O'Kane and the three of us who developed the Dick O'Kane attack had different things in mind. Dick O'Kane didn't care how difficult it was. He had a highly trained crew to back him up and could do several things at once. His attack would be very difficult for a beginner to execute.

My goal was to encourage the new player who had never tried manual targeting to give it a try, with the assurance that he would be a certified killer right off the bat. Frankly, it worked much better than I planned with many experienced players using the method often. At no time have we ever claimed that Dick O'Kane used this exact procedure. He did use very similar constant bearing methods, though, and they did use the American TDC in imaginative and very unconventional ways. The constant bearing section of the Torpedo Fire Control Manual has Dick O'Kane's virtual fingerprints all over it!

OK, enough defending. How are you going to do the max divergent spread with the Dick O'Kane method. It's really not too difficult. You will have to give up an infinitessimal amount of accuracy, because we're not going to have time to update the AoB during the shooting. We'll be perfectly accurate on the second shot, OK?

Let's say our normal shoot bearing is on the 10º bearing and our ship is about ten degrees long. So we'll set up our speed. Then we'll set up the AoB for that 10º shot--90-10=80º starboard or port, depending on which side he's coming for. Our first shot will be intentionally five or seven degrees before the perfect bearing. Point there and wait for the ship.......when that fat stack on the stern is in the crosshairs, shoot!

Now aim the scope just in front of the ship and hit the send bearing/range button. When the MOT is on the crosshairs, shoot! No time to dawdle here.

Again leapfrog to ahead of the target and press the send range/bearing button. When the bow crosses the line shoot as the mast crosses the line.

You've just shot the stern, MOT, bow spread, Dick O'Kane style! Your AoB settings were slightly off, but not enough to make you miss. You have 3 hits on order, American Express overnight delivery. Splice the mainbrace!

[Orion2012]

One question RR, when you said they "crank the bearing input backwards" do you literally mean they, physically jammed it up, or did I misunderstand?

Nice explanation though, very well said Professor Robbins.

[45_South]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Let's say our normal shoot bearing is on the 10º bearing and our ship is about ten degrees long. So we'll set up our speed. Then we'll set up the AoB for that 10º shot--90-10=80º starboard or port, depending on which side he's coming for. Our first shot will be intentionally five or seven degrees before the perfect bearing. Point there and wait for the ship.......when that fat stack on the stern is in the crosshairs, shoot!

Now aim the scope just in front of the ship and hit the send bearing/range button. When the MOT is on the crosshairs, shoot! No time to dawdle here.

Again leapfrog to ahead of the target and press the send range/bearing button. When the bow crosses the line shoot as the mast crosses the line.

Thanks mate! I will try this method and see how it goes. To be honest I was getting a little frustrated with manual targeting and went back to auto for a single mission to 'start again and build some skills' but it was like shooting ducks in a sideshow alley.

The last sub sim I played was 688 Attack Sub and things have obviously changed a bit since then and I think I got bogged down in all the mods (latest RFB etc) available with this sim and lost the plot on learning the basics.

Also, thanks for the link to the Fire Control Manual and I really appreciate your time and effort in such a lengthy and detailed reply. Hats off to you Sir

[Very Jerry]

While we are talking about the various tutorials and videos that help us landlovers understand the tactcs faster and more clearly, I personally want to thank Rockin Robbins, W Sobe and others for all their efforts. I would still be using auto targeting without them.

[Rockin Robbins]

And that, folks, is why I keep it simple. I credit manual targeting as the reason I still play the game. After awhile auto targeting is like shooting fish in a barrel, but manual targeting is just darn intimidating.

By eliminating every possible step, while rejecting shortcuts that sacrifice accuracy I've frustrated those better shooters who, for instance, know how to execute a perfect constant bearing attack without being on a right angle or a 45º angle to the track. But I've opened the door for people who thought manual targeting was black magic or Einsteinian mathematical wizardry with attacks that:

1. Don't require calculators, charts or any outside materials like plotting paper, protractors, is-was banjos or ouija boards. Those things are all good, but not for the methods I teach. I use only in-game tools and simple rules of thumb that are easy to remember, but still methodologically accurate.
2. Are reduced to a recipe that anyone can accomplish just by following the steps. You have a great chance of sinking your prey on the very first attempt. Just by reading the instructions you know that you can do this. Confidence is crucial when you're learning something new.
3. Are precise and precisely explained. There are no made-up undefined terms. If I say "longitudinal spread" you can be sure that if you look it up in the Torpedo Fire Control Manual, you'll see what it is and its definition.
4. Are for the purpose of producing skippers who are better than I am. Some instructional posts are heavy on the bragging and light on instruction. I want YOU to brag when you're done putting awesome amounts of Japanese shipping on the bottom.

Well, apparently there's no way to double-space the entries in that list. I keep some of the links to my stuff in my siggy. I also extensively use WernerSobe's [REL] Video Tutorals: TDC + PK advanced thread. I just kind of adopted it after WernerSobe was lost at sea. Also, look up tale's Multi-ship targeting videos. They're very good.

You might also search for John P Cromwell Technique, which Nisgeis and I cooked up. It's pretty interesting and has Nisgeis' method of vector analysis so that you can calculate a constant bearing shot from any angle to the track with a perfect zero gyro shot. It's more advanced than I would normally put in an instructional video, but just using it once reveals that the apparent complexity is just a cruel hoax. You can do it in seconds, and in-game too! No outside references unless you need a torpedo speed chart.

In order to run, you must first learn to walk. And it's great if while you're only walking you can do some interesting things, like blow up enemy shipping. Just please make an agreement with me. After you learn to run, don't make fun of the people who are still walking. Don't make fun of simpler methods as "unhistorical" or "shortcuts." There are plenty of runners who still use the Dick O'Kane and John P Cromwell techniques to their profit. And some of those walkers, like I'm goin' down, will be passing you in skills in a month or two!

My goal is to build a submarine fleet so good that I'm not qualified to be a skipper in it.

[I'm goin' down]

Having just got my head and boat around manual targeting with a moderate degree of success, I was on top of the world (or, should I say above the surface) until I read this thread. Hell, I am just an amateur compared to you battle hardened subsim computer nuts. It is back to the books for me, and you have just wrecked my Thanksgiving holiday as I will be unable to sleep for the next month trying to understand and implement what I have read in this thread. And I was just about ready to tackle Warner Sobe's sonar only tutorial, thinking I was ready for the elite ranks ....

Whoever said, "The inmates are loose and running the asylum" probably got their start here. The infantry is looking better every day....

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Whoever said, "The inmates are loose and running the asylum" probably got their start here. The infantry is looking better every day....

:rotfl:The way I look at it, if you're still learning, you're not dead yet. My goal is to be not dead yet for quite a long time to come. You're doing great and your posts show you understand what you've learned. You're not just parroting, you're reasoning. That's the mark of success.

[I'm goin' down]

Now he's calling me a parrot! I have to squawk about that one.

[Fish40]

I actually got my first kill the other day useing the DO method! RR great tutorial by the way I got a radar contact at 10nm. I slowed to 1/3 speed and began my first plot. Three minutes later I took another reading and plotted. After determining his course, I got in position 90 degrees to his track and set up the TDC as per the tutorial.

The one thing I have a problem with is getting an acurate speed, which is essential with this method. Since the Radar screen dosn't have range rings, it's hard to determine exact distance between the two plot points, so therefor measuring the distance between the two points will yeild an inaccurate figure. I actually find it a challange to aquire a visual, get an ID, and measure the time it takes for the target to cross the 0 bearing line to determine speed.

Anyway, after I did all that, (target was a Hog Islander by the way) I sat and waited for the target to cross my 10 degree bearing line. I fired three shots: One at the forward crane, one under the stack, and the last at the aft crane. All three shots impacted, but my speed must have been off a hair because the shots hit further aft of their intended AP. She went down about 20 minutes later after slowly flooding

It seems to me, once you have an accurate speed, the rest is sinfully easy!

[I'm goin' down]

The turkey awaits the hatchet, but I could not resist RR's invitation. A fleet without RR at the tip of the spear is like a kid playing with submarines in the bath tub. Unfortunately for the tike, he is now out of baking soda, so the fleet is doomed to sail around aimlessly until the war's end or until dinner is ready. Solution: give him airhog helicopters and tell him hs days as a submariner are finished.

(My crew has spent the morning painting Betty Grable in her bathing suit on the torpedos with a note on the nose cones saying, "Ain't life a blast!)

[pythos]

Wow, that is a variation of the method I have adopted lately, with great success. Plot a course 90 degrees to the targets path, use the TBT on the bridge to get the targets course data get the solution into the TDC with PK on, while moving at full or flank till aprox 3000 yards from the target's course. Then submerge, and go to silent speed, and wait for the target to be called out at 45 to 30 degrees by the hydrophone operator, with a visual check every 5 minutes. At my speed of 1 knot, and the target's usually being 11, the firing point is normally achieved at around 1200 to 1000 yards. When ready to fire I open all the tubes who's torpedo's have had all the deph, pistol and speed setting set. Pop the scope up for final observations, and then turn off the PK. My scope then continues to send bearing info to the tdc. I line up the part of the ship I want to put a fish at, and fire. For large ship I fire at the stern foraward with three fish. For medium, one fish just behind the stack, and one under the stack. For small targets one fish at the stack. Lower the scope and wait.

Mind you, because I play as a captain with a full crew (meaning I have a torpedo plotting team) I have auto tdc selected in gameplay options. So the TDC getting bearing info with the PK off may not be accurate, not sure. I tried manual and found me as captain doing the stuff the plotters would be doing...and sucking at it I wish that there was an options page for auto TDC that would allow you to choose the features you want enabled, such as being able to determine bearing, and range, and have the plotters figure out the speed, and angle on bow along with other items. I figure the plotters could get the angle on bow by determing the target's course in relation to mine, cause I know I can't figure it out with scope observations. Also I would like to disable the triangle with auto TDC on.

But that being said, the method I use seems to work well, unless the target changes course, or sees the steamers headed for them.

[tater]

I've been testing a new escort out, and so I've been trying to get DCed.

As a result, I am watching in external. I've found that I can eyeball using the sub marker on the surface, and hit ~50% of the time at 2-3000 yards just shooting from the hip with no data at all, lol.

[Rockin Robbins]

Sounds like fun tater! I guess you can tell I am a strange mixture of a person who appreciates realism but is always ready to play with the gaming aspects once in awhile.

I don't have any problems leaving my career, loading up a scenario and my subnuclear cuties (I know, not released yet. I've been lazy). Then I play with how close a 30 knot cutie has to come to the target before it will turn to follow. Really you have to come pretty close or it blasts on by.

But that idea sounds like a lot of fun. Are you just going zero gyro and aiming with the arrow on the marker?