US Politics Thread 2016-2020

[vienna]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

...


You can't believe the polls, you can't trust the drummed up news media, you can't trust your prejudism for or against the men and women running for POTUS ...

What can you trust? I trust my intuition that their are more people for President Trump than the men and women running against him have for them.

...

Interesting is the fact a recent poll of voters regarding a possible 2020 reelection run by Trump showed 57% of the respondents stated they definitely will not vote for Trump in 2020; not might not, not may not, not probably won't, but definitely will not vote for Trump; that level of animus is hard to overcome...


57% of voters will 'definitely vote against Trump' in 2020 election, poll says --

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...117-story.html

Note also that only 30% of the pol's respondents said they would definitely vote for Trump; its hard to get reelected with only 30% support...

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

...

What can you trust? I trust my intuition that their are more people for President Trump than the men and women running against him have for them.

...

Again I point to the poll cited above, and many, many others, from both sides of the political spectrum, that show Trump does not, and has not since he took office, have the support of the majority of the people; he couldn't even muster enough to earn more votes than a weak candidate like Hillary Clinton. Trump has never been "the people's choice" by any metric and, as time goes on, he only loses support...

As far as trust goes, I don't know about any one else, but I make it a practice of good sense not to put any trust or faith in anyone who is a proven liar and cheat; maybe its just me, but I have found, by life long experience, that persons who don't continually lie or cheat are better persons to trust and support; that way I can have pride in my support and not feel the shame of being taken as a fool by some dishonest huckster...

Let's take those immigration stats you seemed to find 'not true'; the cites of actual study results you still tried to minimize, even though the source is an entity that has been studying immigration statistics, field reports, and conducting actual observations for many, many years; if there are any who may be called subject matter experts on the issue, they are among the top of the list; even Federal and state governments go to them for statistical data and affirmation; all-in-all, a pretty well proven source...

Now, let's look at Trump, who seems to just pull whatever data he wants to lie about from his ample behind (might explain why its so big: takes a lot of room to store lies and dishonesty); you claim the figures cite in the links was wrong, yet you seem to want to convince us thet Trump's data is correct; well, let's have a fact check:


Donald Trump's false claim about the cost of illegal immigration --

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...illegal-immig/

Note that the above link includes data from conservative sources and even they can't back Trump's hand; yet another lie by Trump...


Let's look at the whole tweet by Trump in question:

“We are not even into February and the cost of illegal immigration so far this year is $18,959,495,168. Cost Friday was $603,331,392. There are at least 25,772,342 illegal aliens, not the 11,000,000 that have been reported for years, in our Country. So ridiculous! DHS”

— President Trump, in a tweet, Jan. 27, 2019

Any even merely adequate liar/conman knows you never get very specific about stats and numbers when you're telling a lie. Why? Because the overwhelming odds are that someone is gonna call you on it:

President Trump tweets nonsensical figures on illegal immigration --

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.892ab30ac6d3


The really glaring problem/fault with Trump's claims is there is absolutely no backup for the figures cited ($18,959,495,168, and, 25,772,342 illegals); no one, not the media, not the White House, not the ardent minions and Trumpettes, have been able to find any source at all to back up Trump's claims; the numbers obviously came from the same orifice he gets all of his harebrained "facts" and stinks as high as what usually comes out of said same orifice...

But, hey, go on believing his lies; and be sure to send in you money to that Nigerian prince when he send you that email...


My statements are not born out of DEM hate (I'm not a DEM), it is a review of actual, verifiable date; but then, again, I can see how some persons who have been spoon-fed a steady diet of lies, deception, and dishonesty for so long might not be able to discern between clean vitttles and a steaming pile...

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

...


Trump will win again in 2020 and this border security prolem will play a big role.

You are probably right about immigration policy (Trump actually making it to a reelection bid is looking weaker by the month), but most likely not in the way you intended: border security will be an issue, just, mainly, how badly, and at great wasted cost and effort, Trump screwed it up...














<O>

[Dowly]

January 2017 - GOP Majority
January 2017 - Wall not an emergency
February 2017 - Wall not an emergency
March 2017 - Wall not an emergency
April 2017 - Wall not an emergency
May 2017 - Wall not an emergency
June 2017 - Wall not an emergency
July 2017 - Wall not an emergency
August 2017 - Wall not an emergency
September 2017 - Wall not an emergency
October 2017 - Wall not an emergency
November 2017 - Wall not an emergency
December 2017 - Wall not an emergency
January 2018 - Wall not an emergency
February 2018 - Wall not an emergency
March 2018 - Wall not an emergency
April 2018 - Wall not an emergency
May 2018 - Wall not an emergency
June 2018 - Wall not an emergency
July 2018 - Wall not an emergency
August 2018 - Wall not an emergency
September 2018 - Wall not an emergency
October 2018 - Wall not an emergency
November 2018 - Wall not an emergency
November 2018 - Democratic majority elected in House
February 2019 - EMERGENCY!!!1!!1!

[u crank]

How Congress and President Obama Made Trump’s Wall Possible

https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-cong...-wall-possible

Six weeks after his (Trump) election in November 2016, Congress overwhelmingly passed a statute—codified as 10 U.S.C § 284—that authorized the secretary of defense to support the “construction of roads and fences and installation of lighting to block drug smuggling corridors across international boundaries of the United States.” On Dec. 23, 2016, a month before leaving office, President Obama signed the 973-page bill into law without any objection to this provision.

..the Trump administration has invoked this express statutory delegation of authority to do what the statute says: “construct ... fences ... across international boundaries of the United States.”

This provision does not turn on the declaration of a national emergency pursuant to 10 U.S.C. § 2808, which the president also invoked in a proclamation issued today. Critically, the White House stated that “these funding sources will be used sequentially and as needed.” The “emergency” funds may not be tapped till the other, less controversial funds are depleted.

This episode illustrates how Congress has long ago relinquished its lawmaking powers. The legislature enacts omnibus bills that few members actually read. Often, these super-duper-statutes contain nearly-limitless delegations of authority to the executive branch, with only the flimsiest guidelines of how and when that authority should be executed. Other times, Congress gives the president the exact authority he needs, with few strings attached. Such is the case with §284: Obama signed a bill into law that gave his successor the very precise power to “construct . . . fences . . . across international boundaries of the United States.”

Obama.

[mapuc]

Are the Dems against it because it's Trump and the Republican and thereby against it on automatic.

I know many from his own party are against this wall.

Markus

[Mr Quatro]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Are the Dems against it because it's Trump and the Republican and thereby against it on automatic.

I know many from his own party are against this wall.

Markus

Yes as discerned from the news conferences alone (they) the Democrats hate Trump and plan on taking the WH back over using this hate with the voters

Originally Posted by u crank

How Congress and President Obama Made Trump’s Wall Possible

https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-cong...-wall-possible

Obama.

Good find

[Platapus]

Some of us are against it as it is a waste of money. It will be very expensive to build and especially maintain. The O&M costs are something Trump is not concerned with as he will be long gone out of office, but we will be paying for it.

A fence with appropriate ground and tethered airborne sensors will be cheaper to build, cheaper to maintain, and more importantly easier to upgrade when new technology is developed.

More money needs to be spent in updating out inadequate visa monitoring system. The greatest problem may not be people crossing the border illegally, but people crossing the border legally but illegally overstaying. Fixing that, in my opinion will do more to address the illegal alien problem quicker than some wall that may take a decade to build.

We also need to make coming to the US illegally less attractive. One way is to start throwing some business owners/CEOs in the slam for violating employment laws.

We also need to redefine our refugee/asylum laws.

The issue I have with Trump is that he is not a critical thinker. He has been focused on implementing a solution instead of focusing on solving the problem.

There is a lot that needs to be done and a lot of it will cost a lot of money. We need to spend our time and money wisely.

In my opinion, I do not feel that a wall is the optimum use of our time and money.

[vienna]

Originally Posted by u crank

How Congress and President Obama Made Trump’s Wall Possible

https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-cong...-wall-possible







Obama.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean have to do something; and, if you do choose to do something you can do, it doesn't mean you have to do it stupidly, irresponsibly, recklessly, foolishly, thoughtlessly, carelessly, or any other -ly you might wish to add...

Basically, just because you can walk through a minefield blindfolded, doesn't mean you have to, or that it is even a good, rational idea...


Oh, and by the way, are you, who so relentlessly decry Obama, are you saying he was right?...


...and I'm rather sure if Obama (or Bush, anyone else for that matter) would have initiated a project like a new border barrier, it would have been done with a whole hell of a lot more common sense and maturity and a whole lot less stupidity and childishness than Chump...












<O>

[Hawk66]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.cb2fe6fa0a87

Any questions left if the wall should be a number 1 topic in US politics ? I think I do not need to refer to the fact that a more restrictive gun control would bring much more real security...

But I guess it is clear what the real motives of the wall are...

By the way Mike Pence's show at the Munich Conference was disastrous. That is not my personal view but of the participants. He talked like being a city halter in ancient Rome, giving orders to be fulfilled and threatened the audience (especially my country, which is (still) supposed to be an ally).

This administrations really manages to destroys so many things, domestically and on the international level. This is also an achievement by its own.

[vienna]

What was really amusing about Pence's exhibition of unctuous sycophancy was when he started out his presentation with greetings for Trump, where a US Presidential greeting would normally be met wit at least polite applause, was met instead with a long, awkward, stony silence:


WATCH: Pence Met with Icy Silence in Munich, Praising Trump and Attempting to Bully Leaders on Foreign Policy --

https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...-bully-leaders










<O>

[u crank]

Originally Posted by vienna

Just because you can do something doesn't mean have to do something; and, if you do choose to do something you can do, it doesn't mean you have to do it stupidly, irresponsibly, recklessly, foolishly, thoughtlessly, carelessly, or any other -ly you might wish to add...

...and I'm rather sure if Obama (or Bush, anyone else for that matter) would have initiated a project like a new border barrier, it would have been done with a whole hell of a lot more common sense and maturity and a whole lot less stupidity and childishness than Chump...

You make it sound like securing the border between the USA and Mexico is a complicated thing and only really smart people like Pelosi and Schumer could do. It is something that they were certainly in favor of not that long ago. It's a fence that needs patrolling by the Border patrol. It's not hard. Nations around the world do this all the time. In this case it's a political argument. Your comments bear that out. The people who say they are for securing the border but against a physical barrier are trying to perform a magic trick.

Oh, and by the way, are you, who so relentlessly decry Obama, are you saying he was right?...

Are you saying he was wrong? After all no one was holding a gun to his head. Perhaps he neglected to read all 973 pages before he signed it. One of the points of that article was to show that Trump doesn't need the declaration of a national emergency to start securing the border. Obama.

Was the declaration of an emergency a political ploy. Of course. So is Nancy (I have a wall around my house) Pelosi saying walls are immoral. So are all the other ridiculous political arguments for and against it. The question going forward is fairly obvious. Is this situation sustainable? I'm going to say it isn't. We've seen politicians in the last administration and Congress change their minds. Will they be forced to do it again?

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by u crank

You make it sound like securing the border between the USA and Mexico is a complicated thing and only really smart people like Pelosi and Schumer could do.

Maybe that is the case, or maybe not. What is apparent to me is there is no plan beyond just doing some wall thing because "walls work". Make a plan and then sell it! Trump is all sales blather and just trying to get his foot in the doorway with no product to hock. All hat and no cattle!

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

Maybe that is the case, or maybe not. What is apparent to me is there is no plan beyond just doing some wall thing because "walls work". Make a plan and then sell it! Trump is all sales blather and just trying to get his foot in the doorway with no product to hock. All hat and no cattle!

I would say that the opponents to any wall are equally unable to sell their product. Walls don't work, they're too expensive, they're immoral, and the real dandy 'there is no problem'. Those arguments are based more on emotion than facts.

There is no doubt that both sides of this argument are trying to distract from any meaningful discussion of the real problem, the inflow of people across the southern border. I think the reason is because the solutions are probably unacceptable to the extremists on both sides.

[Mr Quatro]

Congress has never really been a real work horse ... Taking time off for campaigning, investigation commenties, holidays, weekends off, etc

In my estimation they should work like the crews of USN FBM submarines work with two (2) crews blue and gold for (90) days at a time. They would at least be in one place together long enough to get something done.

For the next (20) months or so it's going to be even worse with a hateful, spiteful, get even with Trump and the GOP. Trump won't sign anything that his party does not approve of and if he does he can send it back for revisions.

Slower and slower till the 2020 election of one side or the other wins the bragging rights of the votes the American people give them.

Right now my mail box is full of don't let America gone down the socialists road of ruin the way Venzula has gone down.

See where I'm going ... It's a battle for what we think with fear being used on both sides.

My soap box needs some coffee ... Have a nice Sunday

[Rockstar]

It is the lack of rational thought from either party which makes this the political circus it is today.

As someone once said ' votes' are the coin of the realm. The political bigtop is where those precious coins are minted.

[mapuc]

….and suddenly is ordinary people who are either for or against trump are expert on walls and its purpose.

Markus