Realistic patrols

jakethescot · 05-01-11, 01:46 PM

Is there any way for someone to make a mod that would make patrols more realistic? I often make back-to-back patrols where I get 30,000+ tons of shipping. This is not accurate.
I've been reading 'Hitler's U-Boat War : The Hunters 1939-1942' by Clay Blair, and it gives detailed statistics for each theater of the war; i.e. the North Atlantic, South Atlantic, American, Arctic, etc, and the results of each patrol are no where near those of the game.
Of the 136 patrols (supply patrols excluded) made in the first year of the North Atlantic War, 8/1939 to 8/1940, the average patrol was;
Duration: 23.6 days
Ships sank: 2.5
Tonnage: 11,987.5
A more realistic patrol would make the game more interesting.

Thanks.

sharkbit · 05-01-11, 02:10 PM

I agree with you as well. I have a Black Sea career that after 4 patrols, I've sunk more tonnage than the real Black Sea flotilla did throughout the war.

Unfortuneately, you probably have to do some "personal realism settings" to bring down your scores.
For example, you have to stay in your assigned area for a week and roll a die(or dice) and see if you have to stay another week or can move to another adjacent grid. If a radio report of a ship or convoy is nearby you can intwercept(or maybe roll a die as well).
One thing I am just starting to do is if I sight a convoy (not intercepted after a radio report), I shadow the convoy, make a radio report, and roll a die every couple hours after my initial radio report is acknowledged. If I roll a 6 or more (with a +1 modification every 2 hours) I get "released" by Bdu to attack. I'm still experimenting with this technique though.

Maybe limit external reloads late in the war. I'm reading Clay Blair's "Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunted" and it sounds like by mid to late 1943, new production VII's didn't have the external torpedo canisters installed and the IX's had reduced external storage. Plus with aircraft getting so prevalent at that time, I usually don't bring externals down at all. It sounds like that got pretty risky late in the war.

I've heard of people not going after single ship radio reports. I believe you can adjust game settings to limit those as well.

There's probably a few other ideas that people have to make scores more realistic.

On the other hand, if the game were called "Silent Hunter 3: Sail Around the Atlantic For Weeks on End Looking for Targets Without Sighting Any", I don't thinmk the game would have much mass appeal.

I'm sure a certain amount of boredom will set in with all of us if we try to make our scores too realistic.
Bottom line-I guess it is all on how you want to play the game. Always remember, it is just a game and entertainment.

Stiebler · 05-01-11, 02:18 PM

Ah, the joys of dabbling in statistics!

The figures that you quote (8/39 - 8/40; presumably the last days of the month) have little meaning of themselves.

Firstly, U-boats were mostly deployed for minelaying around Britain in the first months of the war, and sinkings from mines are probably not counted in Blair's figures.
Secondly, many of the U-boats were of the tiny Type II, with very limited range and torpedo capability (and no deck gun). The figures you quote for average patrol times tell their own story: a duration of just 23.6 days is laughably short.
Thirdly, U-boats had to surface and stop individual merchant ships according to the prize-rules then extant. This was a slow and dangerous business, especially if enemy aircraft were around.
Fourthly, many U-boat torpedoes at this time were hopelessly unreliable, especially if used in shallow waters or high latitudes.
Fifthly, Blair's chosen time span includes the German invasion of Norway, when the entire German navy, including all available U-boats, was directed to Norwegian (ie, northern latitude) waters for the purpose of protecting the German invasion fleet from the British Navy. The U-boats found virtually no targets - and when they did fire, their torpedoes were almost all defective.

You do not state either your time period, for running up regular totals of 30,000 tons plus, or your U-boat type. But if you had a VIIC or, especially, a IXB boat in late 1940, you could expect to attain a very large score, depending on area. Hessler (U 107) sank nearly 100,000 tons on just *one* patrol in mid Atlantic during 1941. Even in 1939, the IX-boats achieved useful scores west of Britain.

Stiebler.

Fish In The Water · 05-01-11, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkbit

On the other hand, if the game were called "Silent Hunter 3: Sail Around the Atlantic For Weeks on End Looking for Targets Without Sighting Any", I don't thinmk the game would have much mass appeal.

Sounds awesome, where can I get a copy?

*******

@Stiebler: Good points all around...

sharkbit · 05-01-11, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharkbit

I'm reading Clay Blair's "Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunted" and it sounds like by mid to late 1943, new production VII's didn't have the external torpedo canisters installed and the IX's had reduced external storage.

My bad...I got this backwards. U-Boat command wanted all existing type VII external torpedo canisters removed and all new production type VII boats to have strengthened steel canisters. They also wanted all type IXB's and IXC's to remove their external canisters as well unless they were patrolling to the Americas or to West Africa. They could mount six canisters instead of the usual eight.

According to Clay Blair, this was because German engineers tentatively determined that the external canisters may have been ruptured and flooded due to close depth chages, causing the boats to be de-stabilized and causing losses.

I found this pretty interesting. It is the first time I've ever heard this before.

jakethescot · 05-01-11, 05:52 PM

Stiebler. Thanks for the reply and fair questions. I was counting ALL tonnage; sinkings by torpedoes, deck guns, mines, and damages/shared. The tables I used were for the type VII and IX u-boats.
The type II (Ducks) table was between September 1939 - November 1941. There wasn't a breakdown of their areas of operation. Their totals were, Ships sunk: 172, and Tonnage: 501,787. I didn't figure their patrol records.
The average duration for a patrol is just that, an average. They range from; U-46 VIIB Herbert Sohler 12/19/39 thru 1/10/40 with 1 ship for 924 tons: again U-46 VIIB Engelbert Endrass 6/1/40 thru 6/30/40 with 5 ship for 35,347 tons: to U-43 IX Wilhelm Ambrocius 5/13/40 thru 7/22/40 (length of patrol) with 4 ships for 29,456 tons: and U-37 IX Viktor Oehrn 5/15/40 thru 6/9/40 with 10 ships for 41,207 tons.
I was just figuring the average patrol.
I did take the Norway invasion into account. Among the U-Boats taking part were; U-47 VIIB Gunther Prien with 1 ship for 1,146 tons, U-37 IX Werner Hartmann with 3 ships for 18,715 tons, U-34 VII Wilhelm Rollmann with 1 ship for 495 tons, and U-26 I Heinz Scheringer with 1 ship for 5,159 tons.
I start my war in 9/1939 and ply the waters between Northern Ireland and Scapa Flow. I use a type VII.
I'm not trying to debate the validity of Mr. Blair's figures. Or those of my own. I was only wanting to know if it were possible to make such a mod. Those who wanted to, could download and use it. Those who didn't want to certainly wouldn't have to. I would like that type of game. If, because of fuel, I had to return to base with only having sunk a Tramp Steamer and Tug, I would be OK with that. If I sailed around for 30 days and didn't sink anything, that would be fine, too. I'd get 'em on the next patrol. But, that's just me.

Sailor Steve · 05-01-11, 06:18 PM

You want a more realistic patrol? Do what I do: Go to your assigned grid and stay there, no matter what. Okay, if you get a report of a convoy in an adjacent grid, go for it. There are a lot of little tricks you can play, like not using the periscope at speeds higher than three knots. Also, don't reload torpedoes while you're under attack, since the boat tilting up and down can cause serious problems for the men dealing with more than a ton of torpedo. Those are just a couple of things that will guarantee fewer contacts and more realistic battles. I've had more than one totally dry patrol that way.

jakethescot · 05-01-11, 06:41 PM

Sailor Steve, I like your tips. How would you make a submerged attack going faster than 3 knots without using your periscope? As for reloading, I mostly sail using silent running while submerged anyway. I have to wait until I'm clear of all hostile ships before reloading.
I will use your tips, just please explain the 3 knot one.

Sailor Steve · 05-01-11, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakethescot

...just please explain the 3 knot one.

I don't remember the exact source, but several players have said that it was next to impossible to see anything at higher submerged speeds due to the periscope vibrating. Apparently there was also some minor risk of bending the thing, or at least upsetting the delicate optics.

Schwieger · 05-01-11, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakethescot

Sailor Steve, I like your tips. How would you make a submerged attack going faster than 3 knots without using your periscope? As for reloading, I mostly sail using silent running while submerged anyway. I have to wait until I'm clear of all hostile ships before reloading.
I will use your tips, just please explain the 3 knot one.

I guess in theory you could use your hyrophone, but never attempted this myself, so can't say

sharkbit · 05-01-11, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

....like not using the periscope at speeds higher than three knots.

Try h.sie and Stieblers realism fixes and you don't have to pretend anymore. They have it set now if you are going over 3 knots, your scope blurs and 5 knots or over, the scope is unusable.
They have other fixes as well which are amazing and continue to make SH3 grow.

I've got it loaded and it is fantastic.

Sailor Steve · 05-01-11, 08:50 PM

Cool!

jakethescot · 05-01-11, 08:59 PM

Sharkbit and Sailor Steve. Thanks for the info. You guys have really helped me. I should have asked this question a long time ago. I'll try your suggestion on the h.sie and the other fix. That along with Sailors Steve's advice should make for a game more realistic than the one I've been playing.

05-01-11, 09:03 PM

Yeah, when your reloading externals, you cant dive unless you hit crash dive, in which case it takes like 5 minutes before you can dive (Simulating scrapping the torpedo to be able to dive) it also fixes repair times without damaging crew efficiency or flood times.

It also makes it so that if your in rough waters you cannot reload unless your level and 30+ m deep, other many great fixes as well, I believe this is a new must have along with any supermod! And he is adding more and more each release!

FIREWALL · 05-01-11, 10:45 PM

Links Please. I couldn't find it in Downloads Section.

05-01-11, 01:46 PM	#1
jakethescot Engineer Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Fulton Missouri Posts: 205 Downloads: 904 Uploads: 0	Realistic patrols Is there any way for someone to make a mod that would make patrols more realistic? I often make back-to-back patrols where I get 30,000+ tons of shipping. This is not accurate. I've been reading 'Hitler's U-Boat War : The Hunters 1939-1942' by Clay Blair, and it gives detailed statistics for each theater of the war; i.e. the North Atlantic, South Atlantic, American, Arctic, etc, and the results of each patrol are no where near those of the game. Of the 136 patrols (supply patrols excluded) made in the first year of the North Atlantic War, 8/1939 to 8/1940, the average patrol was; Duration: 23.6 days Ships sank: 2.5 Tonnage: 11,987.5 A more realistic patrol would make the game more interesting. Thanks. __________________ COYW !!!

05-01-11, 02:10 PM	#2
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	I agree with you as well. I have a Black Sea career that after 4 patrols, I've sunk more tonnage than the real Black Sea flotilla did throughout the war. Unfortuneately, you probably have to do some "personal realism settings" to bring down your scores. For example, you have to stay in your assigned area for a week and roll a die(or dice) and see if you have to stay another week or can move to another adjacent grid. If a radio report of a ship or convoy is nearby you can intwercept(or maybe roll a die as well). One thing I am just starting to do is if I sight a convoy (not intercepted after a radio report), I shadow the convoy, make a radio report, and roll a die every couple hours after my initial radio report is acknowledged. If I roll a 6 or more (with a +1 modification every 2 hours) I get "released" by Bdu to attack. I'm still experimenting with this technique though. Maybe limit external reloads late in the war. I'm reading Clay Blair's "Hitler's U-Boat War: The Hunted" and it sounds like by mid to late 1943, new production VII's didn't have the external torpedo canisters installed and the IX's had reduced external storage. Plus with aircraft getting so prevalent at that time, I usually don't bring externals down at all. It sounds like that got pretty risky late in the war. I've heard of people not going after single ship radio reports. I believe you can adjust game settings to limit those as well. There's probably a few other ideas that people have to make scores more realistic. On the other hand, if the game were called "Silent Hunter 3: Sail Around the Atlantic For Weeks on End Looking for Targets Without Sighting Any", I don't thinmk the game would have much mass appeal. I'm sure a certain amount of boredom will set in with all of us if we try to make our scores too realistic. Bottom line-I guess it is all on how you want to play the game. Always remember, it is just a game and entertainment. __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

05-01-11, 02:18 PM	#3
Stiebler Fuel Supplier Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,237 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 4	Ah, the joys of dabbling in statistics! The figures that you quote (8/39 - 8/40; presumably the last days of the month) have little meaning of themselves. Firstly, U-boats were mostly deployed for minelaying around Britain in the first months of the war, and sinkings from mines are probably not counted in Blair's figures. Secondly, many of the U-boats were of the tiny Type II, with very limited range and torpedo capability (and no deck gun). The figures you quote for average patrol times tell their own story: a duration of just 23.6 days is laughably short. Thirdly, U-boats had to surface and stop individual merchant ships according to the prize-rules then extant. This was a slow and dangerous business, especially if enemy aircraft were around. Fourthly, many U-boat torpedoes at this time were hopelessly unreliable, especially if used in shallow waters or high latitudes. Fifthly, Blair's chosen time span includes the German invasion of Norway, when the entire German navy, including all available U-boats, was directed to Norwegian (ie, northern latitude) waters for the purpose of protecting the German invasion fleet from the British Navy. The U-boats found virtually no targets - and when they did fire, their torpedoes were almost all defective. You do not state either your time period, for running up regular totals of 30,000 tons plus, or your U-boat type. But if you had a VIIC or, especially, a IXB boat in late 1940, you could expect to attain a very large score, depending on area. Hessler (U 107) sank nearly 100,000 tons on just one patrol in mid Atlantic during 1941. Even in 1939, the IX-boats achieved useful scores west of Britain. Stiebler. __________________ NYGM Tonnage War Mod - More than a mod: it's an experience!

05-01-11, 05:52 PM	#6
jakethescot Engineer Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Fulton Missouri Posts: 205 Downloads: 904 Uploads: 0	Stiebler. Thanks for the reply and fair questions. I was counting ALL tonnage; sinkings by torpedoes, deck guns, mines, and damages/shared. The tables I used were for the type VII and IX u-boats. The type II (Ducks) table was between September 1939 - November 1941. There wasn't a breakdown of their areas of operation. Their totals were, Ships sunk: 172, and Tonnage: 501,787. I didn't figure their patrol records. The average duration for a patrol is just that, an average. They range from; U-46 VIIB Herbert Sohler 12/19/39 thru 1/10/40 with 1 ship for 924 tons: again U-46 VIIB Engelbert Endrass 6/1/40 thru 6/30/40 with 5 ship for 35,347 tons: to U-43 IX Wilhelm Ambrocius 5/13/40 thru 7/22/40 (length of patrol) with 4 ships for 29,456 tons: and U-37 IX Viktor Oehrn 5/15/40 thru 6/9/40 with 10 ships for 41,207 tons. I was just figuring the average patrol. I did take the Norway invasion into account. Among the U-Boats taking part were; U-47 VIIB Gunther Prien with 1 ship for 1,146 tons, U-37 IX Werner Hartmann with 3 ships for 18,715 tons, U-34 VII Wilhelm Rollmann with 1 ship for 495 tons, and U-26 I Heinz Scheringer with 1 ship for 5,159 tons. I start my war in 9/1939 and ply the waters between Northern Ireland and Scapa Flow. I use a type VII. I'm not trying to debate the validity of Mr. Blair's figures. Or those of my own. I was only wanting to know if it were possible to make such a mod. Those who wanted to, could download and use it. Those who didn't want to certainly wouldn't have to. I would like that type of game. If, because of fuel, I had to return to base with only having sunk a Tramp Steamer and Tug, I would be OK with that. If I sailed around for 30 days and didn't sink anything, that would be fine, too. I'd get 'em on the next patrol. But, that's just me. __________________ COYW !!!

05-01-11, 06:18 PM	#7
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	You want a more realistic patrol? Do what I do: Go to your assigned grid and stay there, no matter what. Okay, if you get a report of a convoy in an adjacent grid, go for it. There are a lot of little tricks you can play, like not using the periscope at speeds higher than three knots. Also, don't reload torpedoes while you're under attack, since the boat tilting up and down can cause serious problems for the men dealing with more than a ton of torpedo. Those are just a couple of things that will guarantee fewer contacts and more realistic battles. I've had more than one totally dry patrol that way. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

05-01-11, 06:41 PM	#8
jakethescot Engineer Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Fulton Missouri Posts: 205 Downloads: 904 Uploads: 0	Sailor Steve, I like your tips. How would you make a submerged attack going faster than 3 knots without using your periscope? As for reloading, I mostly sail using silent running while submerged anyway. I have to wait until I'm clear of all hostile ships before reloading. I will use your tips, just please explain the 3 knot one. __________________ COYW !!!

05-01-11, 08:50 PM	#12
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Cool! __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

05-01-11, 08:59 PM	#13
jakethescot Engineer Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Fulton Missouri Posts: 205 Downloads: 904 Uploads: 0	Sharkbit and Sailor Steve. Thanks for the info. You guys have really helped me. I should have asked this question a long time ago. I'll try your suggestion on the h.sie and the other fix. That along with Sailors Steve's advice should make for a game more realistic than the one I've been playing. __________________ COYW !!!

05-01-11, 09:03 PM	#14
reignofdeath Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Yeah, when your reloading externals, you cant dive unless you hit crash dive, in which case it takes like 5 minutes before you can dive (Simulating scrapping the torpedo to be able to dive) it also fixes repair times without damaging crew efficiency or flood times. It also makes it so that if your in rough waters you cannot reload unless your level and 30+ m deep, other many great fixes as well, I believe this is a new must have along with any supermod! And he is adding more and more each release!

05-01-11, 10:45 PM	#15
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	Links Please. I couldn't find it in Downloads Section. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???