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Old 04-20-2021, 07:52 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by 3catcircus View Post
An interesting question will be whether or not Maxine Waters, Sleepy Joe, or the governor of MN improperly influenced the trial.
I'll be watching that with interest, the trial judge seemed to think it might be grounds for an appeal.
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Old 04-20-2021, 07:52 PM   #617
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Both the defense and the prosecution presented expert testimony that contradicted they other side's.

As the drug use logic? The coroner's report showing him having 11 ng/ml fentanyl in his system at the time of death (when a typical fentanyl patch delivers a peak of 3.8 ng/ml and a transmucosal dose delivers a peak of 2.1 ng/ml) leads to either a significant tolerance due to prolonged drug abuse or the logical conclusion that he swallowed the fentanyl he bought off of his drug dealer to avoid it being seized as evidence.

Did you read the coroner's report? "Signs associated with fentanyl toxicity include severe respiratory depression, seizures, hypotension, coma and death. In fatalities from fentanyl, blood concentrations are variable and have been reported as low as 3 ng/mL."

.

George Floyds drug use or alleged drug use is irrelevant. I repeat, it's irrelevant, for the reasons I listed above. Better still, Chavin was recorded saying he thought Floyd may have been on drugs. Why then did Chauvin act as he did. You want everyone to forget about the video that exists

You need a better understanding of the law. Further, Chauvin never tried to administer aid as he was required to do. A jury of his peers convicted Chauvin.


Btw, I'm sure I have a better legal understanding than your own. I'm certain of it.
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Old 04-20-2021, 08:12 PM   #618
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George Floyds drug use or alleged drug use is irrelevant. I repeat, it's irrelevant, for the reasons I listed above. Better still, Chavin was recorded saying he thought Floyd may have been on drugs. Why then did Chauvin act as he did. You want everyone to forget about the video that exists

You need a better understanding of the law. Further, Chauvin never tried to administer aid as he was required to do. A jury of his peers convicted Chauvin.


Btw, I'm sure I have a better legal understanding than your own. I'm certain of it.
Feel free to believe whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact that a drug-abusing criminal with a heart condition was combative while police were attempting to arrest him and suffered a heart attack while being subdued. And that the prosecution had to quickly change from using the word "neck" to "neck area" when confronted with proof that Chauvin's knee was on his shoulder rather than his neck (noting that it's still possible the his knee slipped to his neck while Floyd was flailing about.)

A guy not high and combative would've been quickly placed in cuffs and instead of wasting time, he could have then been medically evaluated.

While we all feel bad for Floyd and his family, his actions are what led to the encounter with the police in the first place, and his combative nature during that encounter led to the police having to apply subdual holds. His heart condition, exertion while resisting, and fatal levels of fentanyl leading to a heart attack are of more significance as a primary cause rather than a knee laid into a shoulder. Is it negligence or involuntary manslaughter? Possibly. But it isn't murder. No premeditation. No intent to cause death. No depraved mind. No heat of passion. The only statute that seemingly applies in MN is manslaughter 2 due to the culpable negligence creating an unreasonable risk phrasing of the statute. And even then it's dicey - no law enforcement officer can be expected to diagnose a heart condition (or know that the person recently had covid). It also doesn't mean that Chauvin is a good guy. He sounds like a complete tool. It still doesn't equal murder.

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Old 04-20-2021, 08:50 PM   #619
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The first video in the thread shows the knee on the neck which is not just casually slipping now and then.

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Old 04-20-2021, 09:04 PM   #620
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The first video in the thread shows the knee on the neck which is not just casually slipping now and then.

And this view, which the media conveniently chose to ignore until it was presented at trial, refutes that.

https://rumble.com/vfeejx-new-altern...narrative.html

It's entirely possible that it appears to be his neck when, in fact, It was his shoulder, based upon camera angle, elevation, and parallax. Which is what this video shows, and to which was testified to.
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Old 04-20-2021, 09:13 PM   #621
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And this view, which the media conveniently chose to ignore until it was presented at trial, refutes that.

https://rumble.com/vfeejx-new-altern...narrative.html

It's entirely possible that it appears to be his neck when, in fact, It was his shoulder, based upon camera angle, elevation, and parallax. Which is what this video shows, and to which was testified to.
It appears to me that Floyd is already dead in those moments shown before being loaded on the gurney. He is no longer moving, or struggling, and it does nothing to refute the claim.
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Old 04-21-2021, 03:46 AM   #622
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Feel free to believe whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact that a drug-abusing criminal with a heart condition was combative while police were attempting to arrest him and suffered a heart attack while being subdued. And that the prosecution had to quickly change from using the word "neck" to "neck area" when confronted with proof that Chauvin's knee was on his shoulder rather than his neck (noting that it's still possible the his knee slipped to his neck while Floyd was flailing about.)

A guy not high and combative would've been quickly placed in cuffs and instead of wasting time, he could have then been medically evaluated.

While we all feel bad for Floyd and his family, his actions are what led to the encounter with the police in the first place, and his combative nature during that encounter led to the police having to apply subdual holds. His heart condition, exertion while resisting, and fatal levels of fentanyl leading to a heart attack are of more significance as a primary cause rather than a knee laid into a shoulder. Is it negligence or involuntary manslaughter? Possibly. But it isn't murder. No premeditation. No intent to cause death. No depraved mind. No heat of passion. The only statute that seemingly applies in MN is manslaughter 2 due to the culpable negligence creating an unreasonable risk phrasing of the statute. And even then it's dicey - no law enforcement officer can be expected to diagnose a heart condition (or know that the person recently had covid). It also doesn't mean that Chauvin is a good guy. He sounds like a complete tool. It still doesn't equal murder.

You are also free to believe as you choose. I'm fully aware that not everyone will feel the same regarding the outcome of the the Derek Chauvin trial. That being said, the D.A's office filed the charges they felt were appropriate given the circumstances and also the charges they believed they could prove at the time of the trial.

The line up of medical experts, who have a better understanding than you or I testified that Floyd died from having his oxygen supply cut off. I heard further medical testimony in which it was stated that a healthy person would have died under the same circumstances. I have not the faintest Idea why you can't seem to grasp that.

Therefore, it's irrelevant that George Floyd had drugs in his system. It's irrelevant that George Floyd had medical conditions. Did it not ever occur to you that the vast majority of the general public has one health condition or another ? Decent police officers know this and deal with it on a daily basis. How many times did George Floyd say that he couldn't breath ? Any decent human being would have backed off at that point.

Why did it take 4 officers to hold down a suspect with his hands handcuffed behind his back ? Why couldn't George Floyd have been handcuffed and sat on the ground with his legs straight out ? Try putting your hands behind you and getting up from the ground in a seated position. That would have sufficed.

You have said that there is no premeditation. Chauvin and Floyd had both worked together in security for a nightclub. It was never mentioned at trial as it wasn't deemed relevant. How do you or anyone else know that Chauvin didn't have it in for Floyd and that this encounter wasn't an elaborate setup ?

I don't think Chauvin or Floyd are poster boys for the cream of society. That being said, everyone should enjoy the same protection under the law. While Floyd may or may not have been cooperative, This does not give police departments discretionary rights to act as judge, jury and executioner. I fully expect to see Chauvin file an appeal.

An appeal isn't necessarily filed because the defense doesn't like a decision.The defense will have to cite an error in the process to prevail. It appears to me that the judge and prosecution went to great lengths to make this difficult.

Again,your opinion is in the minority.

Consider this bill that may be enacted into law by Congress.


H.R.7120 - George Floyd Justice in Policing Act of 2020

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...ouse-bill/7120

Last edited by Commander Wallace; 04-21-2021 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 04-21-2021, 07:00 AM   #623
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You are also free to believe as you choose. I'm fully aware that not everyone will feel the same regarding the outcome of the the Derek Chauvin trial. That being said, the D.A's office filed the charges they felt were appropriate given the circumstances and also the charges they believed they could prove at the time of the trial.

The line up of medical experts, who have a better understanding than you or I testified that Floyd died from having his oxygen supply cut off. I heard further medical testimony in which it was stated that a healthy person would have died under the same circumstances. I have not the faintest Idea why you can't seem to grasp that.

Therefore, it's irrelevant that George Floyd had drugs in his system. It's irrelevant that George Floyd had medical conditions. Did it not ever occur to you that the vast majority of the general public has one health condition or another ? Decent police officers know this and deal with it on a daily basis. How many times did George Floyd say that he couldn't breath ? Any decent human being would have backed off at that point.

Why did it take 4 officers to hold down a suspect with his hands handcuffed behind his back ? Why couldn't George Floyd have been handcuffed and sat on the ground with his legs straight out ? Try putting your hands behind you and getting up from the ground in a seated position.

You have said that there is no premeditation. Chauvin and Floyd had both worked together in security for a nightclub. It was never mention at trial as it wasn't deemed relevant. How do you or anyone else know that Chauvin didn't have it in for Floyd and that this wasn't an elaborate setup ?

I don't think Chauvin or Floyd are poster boys for the cream of society. That being said, everyone should enjoy the same protection under the law. While Floyd may or may not have been cooperative, This does not give police departments discretionary rights to act as judge, jury and executioner. I fully expect to see Chauvin file an appeal.

An appeal isn't necessarily filed because the defense doesn't like a decision.The defense will have to cite an error in the process to prevail. It appears to me that the judge and prosecution went to great lengths to make this difficult.

Again,your opinion is in the minority.

Consider this bill that may be enacted into law by Congress.


H.R.7120 - George Floyd Justice in Policing Act of 2020

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...ouse-bill/7120
I understand what you are saying. I disagree that the drugs and heart condition are irrelevant. I might have missed it in the reporting, but I don't think that the prosecution experts you are referring to were challenged on their assertions that a healthy person would have also died, in light of the video showing knee on shoulder vice neck. *That's* the important distinction. I tend to believe the video showing knee on shoulder rather than neck, in light of past experience which shows that video evidence is misconstrued *specifically* because of camera angle, light conditions, and parallax.

So - a healthy person would *not* have died as a result of a knee in the shoulder or back, whereas someone with a compromised cardiovascular system who had lethal levels of drugs that further depress the cardiovascular system would. And they, in fact, would be more likely to have difficulty breathing regardless of physical position. Floyd kept complaining that he was having trouble breathing before he was proned out. That he was carrying on claiming he couldn't breath, that he was going to die, etc. etc. from the moment they asked him to step out of his car is something that police officers have seen over and over again from suspects as typical stall tactics to try and avoid an inevitable arrest, leading them to believe that his later complaints were more of the same. I also expect that, had the other 3 officers not had to have performed crowd control to avoid attack from a mob, they could and would have been able to monitor Floyd's condition and identify that he was actually in distress and not continuing stalling his arrest.

Again, an unfortunate situation all around, but nothing in their actions meets the definition of murder on the MN statutes.

The bigger question is how to deal with a portion of the populace that thinks it is acceptable to resist police officers enforcing laws. The police might not even agree with the law, but they are doing the bidding of the citizens whose duly-elected representatives enacted the laws. The thought experiment needs to consider where we would be at if criminals doing criminal things didn't do additional criminal things when caught...
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Old 04-21-2021, 09:22 AM   #624
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est.

Again, an unfortunate situation all around, but nothing in their actions meets the definition of murder on the MN statutes.

I beg to differ, the State of Minnesota is the one which charged the officer with 2nd degree murder. I figure if anyone would know more about MN statutes it would be the State prosecutors office that won the case.
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Old 04-21-2021, 09:33 AM   #625
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What bugs me is nothing in tbe trial indicated this was racially motivated. Race was not even a subject brought up at the trial. Use of force policy was though.



Yet race is the only thing all the Bidenettes are talking about.


Never mind, need for more, training, funding, performance reviews, and the militarization of police, which affects every citizen. That would shine the light on the politcians and they dont want that.
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Old 04-21-2021, 10:46 AM   #626
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Trying to get the head and tail in all this-Did the police officers acting kill Floyd ?
If yes was this the reason he got a 2nd degree murder verdict ?

Why does I have the feeling that this police officer is a victim of a political fox play.

I do not defend him...he made some wrong moves and should be punished for these-but he shouldn't be the center of all police brutality that has occurred the last 1-2 decades.
I feel he is a society scapegoat(can't find a better word)

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Old 04-21-2021, 11:44 AM   #627
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Regardless of what you believe caused the death, the police report is misleading.

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Old 04-21-2021, 11:58 AM   #628
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I beg to differ, the State of Minnesota is the one which charged the officer with 2nd degree murder. I figure if anyone would know more about MN statutes it would be the State prosecutors office that won the case.
Here are the relevant statutes:

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.18 (defines premeditation)
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.185 (murder 1)
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19 (murder 2)
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.195 (murder 3)
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.20 (manslaughter 1)
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.205 (manslaughter 2)

Murder 1 requires premeditation and intent.
Murder 2 requires intent unless it was unintentional while in the process of committing another felony or by a person who has a restraining order
Murder 3 requires depraved mind - which legally means he had to have been judged morally lacking - which means he should never have been hired as a police officer to begin with.
Manslaughter 1 requires intent while in the heat off passion - he wasn't charged with 5th degree assault, in which case MS1 wouldn't need intent.
Manslaughter 2 requires culpable negligence - i.e. "he should've known better."

The murder 3 was initially thrown out before an speaks cost reinstated it.

For unintentional murder 2, he should have been charged with whatever felony he was alleged to be in the process of committing.

The only one that logically applies is MS2. They never established intent, premeditation, etc.

This is a case of an overcharge by a politically-motivated AG, relying upon an uneducated jury to not understand the charges and to react emotionally to prosecution testimony.

Don't get me wrong, Chauvin no saint. But, between prosecutorial overcharge, what appears to potentially be an inadequate defense in light of the reinstatement of the murder 3 charge, and interference by politicians, this will be going to appeal.

Doesn't matter though, since the mob is gonna riot no matter what.
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Old 04-21-2021, 12:01 PM   #629
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This was 2nd degree manslaughter. How can he be charged and convicted with 2nd degree murder? Was it proven beyond reasonable doubt that he intended to kill the victim?
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Old 04-21-2021, 01:13 PM   #630
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This was 2nd degree manslaughter. How can he be charged and convicted with 2nd degree murder? Was it proven beyond reasonable doubt that he intended to kill the victim?
It was unintentional murder 2, which doesnt require intent, but it does require him to have been committing a 1st/2nd degree felony offense with force/violence or a drive-by shooting, or to be a person with a restraining order who is attempting bodily harm on the person who obtained the restraining order.

So, it seems that they levied unintentional murder 2 *because* of the manslaughter 2, claiming the manslaughter was with force/violence, solely as a way to stack charges hoping one of them stuck. A jury member isn't going to be sophisticated enough to understand this for what it is.
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