Panzerführers los los!

[Schweitzer123]

I totaly apologize if this is the wrong section for this. I browse the SubSim forums quite a bit and recently discovered this section!

Anyways, I am a member of the 1.SS Realism Unit for Red Orchestra/Darkest Hour. We have a Panzeraüfklarungabteilung that we portray for that game, as well as JG54 for IL2 and 7th Flt for SH3.

We will be moving to TvT34 when it comes out and are looking for German Tank sim/German military enthousiasts to join our ranks! We have casual and serious players but mostly enjoy a sense of kameradschaft! If anyone is interested Ill post more info here on how it all works!

Please any questions, ask. Also if this is the wrong place, place move/delete/pm or do whatever you need to and Ill make adjustments!

Visit us at ***deleted by management***
Or me at XFire: lordkickass

[Skybird]

I'm sorry, but this moderator you are dealing with in this place is German, and is quite allergic to displays of Nazi symbology, names, tales of heroism of SS-units, and uncritically calling their history back to life as if it ever could be considered a desirable thing to have them back or to serve in them.

I do not impose German laws here, since this is an American-run international forum, nevertheless be advised that in Germany you would need to deal with the police now. Open display of Nazi-symbology and propagation of Nazi content is under legal penalty here. By that I want to say that you could easily hurt people's sentiments who may not be as enthusiastic about the SS and it's meaning than you are, according to what I read at that site.

After having had a small controversy in the GT forum over a similar site just a short time ago, and after having visited that place you linked and having won my impressions of it, for the time being I must delete your link to that place.

One can have a sim about tank warfare at that time - without needing to revive the ugly Nazi past in such colourful and gloryfying display. In fact, we all have good reason to be happy that the SS is gone and hopefully never will be back.

The management

[Boats]

Don't take offense to this post. I'm old enough to have had friends who had a family member or two survive and had the tatoos to prove it. As well as a Dutch gentleman who gave us his copper tea service they had to bury to keep out of the hands of those he didn't have kind words for. And he had some stories.
Nor is this post about the deletion of the site's link. I don't know what the above web site advertises as I didn't visit it. I can imagine, as some take these games far too seriously.

This post is purely an academic one. A question of immersion in the interest of the sim. You could just as easily pose this question to a sim about the USSR under Stalin as he was as brutal as his opponent.

But, in the interest of playing a historic sim about a time period in which some very unsavory characters were major players, how far is acceptable? For a WW2 tank sim, as the Panzer SS were infamous amoungst the allies because they did play such a large role in combat operations at the front, should they be included? Or should the units represented only be of the Werhmach? But then again, there are stories of their behavior in Russia not being too nice. And I know, each side had its events, the difference of major import is that the allied governments didn't condone or call for liquidation. Not publically anyway.

Again, only a question posed as I'm a bit of a WW2 history buff. I even made the decision to join the military based on this interest. So this is only an academic question and not at all related to the first post, but more to the reply to the first post.

I will say this, there must be a balance between forgetting and glorifying what happened, for if we forget we'll allow the same people to return. But that's only in relation to reality, whether or not the SS is remembered in a fantasy game is of no consequence to me. Unless of course the game influences people to act according to their online personna. The jury is still out on that one I guess.

Interesting, I remember when KISS played in Germany they had to change the font of their last two letters. And Gene Simmons is Jewish who is a founding memeber and owns a great deal of the franchise that is KISS. Yet he didn't have a problem using two lightening bolts for the es's. Sometimes wonder what other Jewish people think of his choice of font.

I'm reading a book by a Tiger tank commander at present. He has interspersed a defense for the German soldier and making a rallying acussation against those who chastied and looked down on them after the war. As a former military man I can see his point, not all of them took part in the nastiness of the Nazi party.

[Skybird]

Im am not taking offense to your post, Boat. There is no reason to do so.

I am not condemning Wehrmacht soldiers in general. My grandfather was tank commander at the Russian front, his brother was killed in France. I say that most Wehrmacht soldiers were NOT Nazis, just were victims of circumstances like so many soldiers on allied side as well - they lived at the wrong time in the wrong place.

however, SS units are something different. not all of them participated in those gruesome "special command jobs" behind the front. Nevertheless they tried to recruit their soldiers from dedicated Nazis, and thus had a much, much higher share of Nazis in their ranks. the SS must be seen as a dedicated helping organisation for faschist German government, and the great Führer himself, and SS-divisions as the military branch were specially equipped because of their great ideologic loyalty to the Nazis - the reason why it were SS units that almost exclusively were ordered to participate in special operations behind the front that supported the capture and genocide of Jews as well as conducting atrocities against civil population.

To have a simulation Allies versus Germans is okay, but you do not lose a single bit in historic knowledge or education if you leave out the glorification and respectful rememberance of dedicated Nazi symbology, and do not revive the questionable Kameradschaft in such faschist organisations. I would also say you do not learn anything valuable from playing such simulations. They do not educated you to answer the question of the why'S and How's of that time. They are no academic or otherwise a historic information input. They remain to be nothing more than a game. Games that in form of IL2 and SH3 I have played myself, yes - but without feeling a desire to relive explcit Nazi idealism. If you play a simulation and feel tempted to take part in this part of things, than you have a problem, and you have become a problem for others as well.

however, I eventually could even live with the historically correct painting of vehicles including swastikas. note that in Germany, SH3 and IL-2 versions of both sims run without display of these symbols, it is illegal here to display them, you could end up in prison for that. But the line beyond which my tolerance as a moderator here ends is when not only such textures are being used, but websites get called to life that glorify and artifically recreate Nazi ideology and Nazi organisations, as if it were just like any given ,military unit of WWII. SS units are not like any given military unit, like KZ guards do not compare to any given prison guard. they are a symbol for German faschism and the catatrophe it had brought over europe and Germany alike, they also are a symboli for German fanatism and the murderous basic attitude of german militarism. Again, i do not try to impose german laws here, since this is an international forum founded and owend by an American, Neal. As moderator I must step in when I see something taking place that imo glorifies Faschism and Nazism, and gives it a harmless appearance. I also do it not only as a moderator, but as a private person, for in my real life also do not accept or passively tolerate such display of Nazism or glorification of Nazism, and actively kicked people out at occasions.

I do not know if Schweitzer is a Nazi or not, too little postings by him to form an opinion on that. Maybe he is just easyminded and uncritical, which very well could be. That'S why I did not lock him away. but at least in this part of the forum the site he called up remains to be banned until Neal decides to bring it back online.

Anything else regarding this issue please via PM.

Thanks,
the management.

[Skybird]

Thanks for editing your signature, Schweitzer.