Starting a Submarine Novel from you guys...

[azreark1]

well in a couple threads on these forums i've seen bitching and moaning about some of these submarine books and how un-realistic they are and this shouldnt happen and that should have happened so i have come up with the idea of trying to get together enough info from all of you to get a novel started (and hopefully finished) and see what we get.

Related Threads:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93311
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93099

So here is where i am at right now...i'v been pondering all day on a good basic story line...now i would really like to get a totally ORIGINAL story line but it seems that just about anything i can come up with has been used somehow or another in another book so what i have come up with so far is The Basic:"Worldwide meeting at the UN in NY to discuss a Cease Fire of the War in Iraq(basically fill the place up with influential world leaders)" now i have not quite figured out the how but i'm thinking something like a Cruise missle takes out the whole place or something along those lines. now thats a pretty basic story line so i'm trying to get a little more in-depth with it and am probably going to add some more situations at different locations around the world. now this as of right now is the story line i'm going to run with so please reply quickly with some info and possible guidance on idea's of how this thing should go.

On a side note...at the moment i need some ordinary ranks of these MOS's. Cook, Sonar Operator, Engineer(like reactor egineer and anything else you guys can come up with), and Weapons Officer.

[jason10mm]

I suppose you have to decide from the get go whether or not you want a realistic modern story (something that could actually happen right now) or go for a pumped up "adventure" style book (like Joe Buffs stuff, nukes everywhere, etc).

For a realistic story I'd stick with espionage missions, Spec Ops insertions and the like. The tendence is to have the "latest and greatest" go into action, a Virginia class for example, but I'd rather see a 688 or something have to do these missions. If the writing was good enough just trying to infiltrate a Chinese harbor (my personal choice for all future large naval engagements) to tap underwater lines or insert SEALs would be plenty exciting. Not much opportunity for actual combat however.

A more fantastic or large scale story would have to be set into the future. Maybe have Europe vs the US vs China over oil. Pretty plausable and I think there will definitely be shooting involved over petroleum transport lanes in the future. 10-15 years in the future would still allow us to realistically extrapolate technology trends, and give the "bad guys" time to build up to be a good challenge. Of course with all the economic interconnectivity these days there is no real reason why superpowers would ever get into a shooting war, but oh well

Of course a REALLY good story would be set in the 70s or 80s, during the Cold War. In the retrospectoscope the actual technology and tactics would be MUCH more accurate and it would allow for the good old red vs Blue engagements we love so much. Of course the Red turned out to be pretty bad and the Blue pretty good (based on the wars we each fought) but that's why it is fiction!

For SURE there can be NO rogue ships, hijacked subs, or frickin women in subs! Amusing as it is, it is just plain annoying and leads to silly personality conflicts.

[Kapitan]

Is it about a russian USA British or what submarine?

[UglyMowgli]

Why not just a common patrol of a SSN, departure, ASW and ASuw excercie, transit, mission : intelligence gathering in a lybian harbor with some excitement, periscope detection by a russian surface ship who chase the sub, trying to catch it with his anchor, the ship sail so fast that the crew did not retreeive the anchors (this really happen in the 80 aboard a french SSN), you can continue with a evading chapter (surface ship, airborne asset and maybe a russian sub) and finish with a return to home port.

Not very complicated, without conspiracy, a fool XO or a terrorsit attack and theft of a sub, just real life.

[azreark1]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Is it about a russian USA British or what submarine?

i'm pretty sure i'm going to make the main sub the USS Dallas.

now i'm thinking the chinese are basically going to be the bad guys since they are being kind of *******s nowadays anyways.

russians are there pretty much just for supply's (subs and the sort)

and thats about as far as i'v gotten...like i said i want some good idea's from you guys on where to take this.

i like the idea of just a simple in and out kind of thing like what MSgalileo said and even incorporate that with the infiltration of a harbor like jason10mm said.

maybe something like the chinese are wanting a fair bit of control of space and think that the space over china is theirs and they have constructed a weapon to shoot down our space station and any sattelites that enter their space without paying some rediculous amount of money. we go in to destroy the device but word leaks out to the media or someone that we are going to do it so they pretty much close the harbor down with almost the entire fleet pinging away looking for our sub so we have to figure out another way in to do it and all the while the clock is ticking away till one of our sattelites cross into their space and gets blown to hell.

anyways that was kinda off the top of my head so lets start rolling with this.

[jason10mm]

How about having China make a play for Taiwan? You could start with Taiwan formally declaring independence, whihc is bound to piss China off. Taiwan thinks they have the US and Japan backing them (maybe they want to be in a position to replace mainland China as a supplier of Wal-mart goods or something) so they get cocky and declare. China, seeing their financial windfall about to dry up, moves on Taiwan. A limited shooting war starts. The US can't officially get involved yet, but fortunately the USS Texas is in the area and can run intel and maybe limited attacks against Chinese forces. Draw Japan into it and you could have some decent surface actions with lots of submarine stuff involving the Texas supporting Taiwan and trying to keep China from being able to sail across with a landing force.

I dunno, it would require a lot of research into both contries and their economics to make it work, but that is just my idea of a start point. I personally think the basic scenario is the most important part of a good technothriller. My wife and I are watching all of the Tom Clancy movies (and she LOVES them, I am sooo lucky and they really show how a good set-up helps the whole story move along.

[azreark1]

hahaha, the texas huh...interesting very interesting. but i'll admit that it makes perfect sense since china has been wanting taiwan since taiwan broke off of mainland china so an attack on it i actually dont think would be too un-realistic.

so lets go with that then.

i actually think it would make a great story pretty much for the fact that they dont call it the "Silent Service" for nothing...if we wanted to stay out of it we could run all the ops we wanted with Texas as long as we were not detected...and from what i hear about the Virginia class boat it makes me wonder if the chinese would even know that what they are hearing is a sub (as long as they dont hear the torpedo launch or us cavitate)...i like it.

EDIT:
any good ideas on something we could use a seal or SF team for?

[blue3golf]

Could have a SEAL team do an intel/extraction of key personnel mission. If wanting to mix it up a little an SF team could catch a ride on an overflight mission by recon aircraft and HALO in for same mission, catch a ride out on some sort of naval vessel. I don't know, thats about my level of creativity.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by jason10mm

Draw Japan into it and you could have some decent surface actions with lots of submarine stuff involving the Texas supporting Taiwan and trying to keep China from being able to sail across with a landing force.

If you want to get another Navy involved, either be very careful or only do it very superficially. The latter is probably safer, though if you can pull off the former it'd be a real hit.

The Japanese JSDF has many similarities to the USN, but there are many subtle differences. One of the many hallmarks is that enlisted can fly planes, something that's not done in most American books I've seen. There are also fast-track paths to NCO level (though not as short as the 6-month training Soviet style system). Oh, and there is no "up or out" system, so you can stay as a Lieutenant till you are over 50. If you want to be cheeky or perky or just sensitive, you can use "Captain/Colonel x Class/Rank" and "Lieutenant x Class/Rank" - these follow the JSDF system more closely. LIttle annoying differences like this makes detailed portrayal a delicate matter.

I am sure the Taiwanese and Chinese got their idiosyncracies as well, but they are not quite in my knowledge bank.

Then there is personality. Most authors, due to lack of knowledge, tend to either just write every nation as kind of the same or more commonly they make the extranationals go the other way, quoting Sun-Tzu, being torturing SOBs, and the like. Of course, the real truth is somewhere in between, but few know that and even if they know that few can reliably implement a thinking pattern that same and different at the same time. The end result tends to be characters that look convincing to their own (usually American) nationals and utterly stereotyped and insulting to other nationals (take Bear and the Dragon).

I suggest you just skim over anyone you don't plan to spend several months researching.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by MSgalileo

Why not just a common patrol of a SSN, departure, ASW and ASuw excercie, transit, mission : intelligence gathering in a lybian harbor with some excitement, periscope detection by a russian surface ship who chase the sub, trying to catch it with his anchor, the ship sail so fast that the crew did not retreeive the anchors (this really happen in the 80 aboard a french SSN), you can continue with a evading chapter (surface ship, airborne asset and maybe a russian sub) and finish with a return to home port.

Not very complicated, without conspiracy, a fool XO or a terrorsit attack and theft of a sub, just real life.

That's absolutely the best idea yet It would require really good writing and developed characters, but making it believeable would be the best approach.

[azreark1]

hmm, well i got some good info from this HUGE ranting on about the ware and china and taiwan and all that in the General section...gives a pretty good basis for the book.

Anti-Satellite Weapons (ASATs)
China is working on, and plans to field, ASAT systems. Beijing has and will continue to enhance its satellite tracking and identification network - the first step in establishing a credible ASAT capability. China can currently destroy or disable satellites only by launching a ballistic missile or space-launch vehicle armed with a nuclear weapon. However, there are many risks associated with this method, and consequences from use of nuclear weapons. China is also conducting research to develop ground-based laser ASAT weapons. Based on the level of Chinese interest in this field, the Defense Intelligence Agency believes Beijing eventually could develop a laser weapon capable of damaging or destroying satellites. At lower power thresholds, Chinese researchers may believe that low-energy lasers can "blind" sensors on low-Earth-orbiting satellites; whether Beijing has tested such a capability is unclear.

Anti-Secession Law

On March 14, 2005, China's legislature, the National People's Congress, passed the "antisecession law." The law's passage followed months of speculation by outside observers over its contents and a simultaneous lobbying effort on the part of Chinese officials to cast the law in benign terms, while closely guarding the draft of the text. The law itself is broken into ten articles that codify, or render as legal instruments, policies and statements applied by the Chinese government to the Taiwan question. Key elements are described below.

Article One establishes that the law was formulated for the purpose of "opposing and checking Taiwan's secession from China."Article Two restates Beijing's "One China" definition - Taiwan is part of China - and that China "shall never allow" Taiwan to secede from China "under any name or by any means."Article Three asserts that the Taiwan matter is part of China's internal affairs and is subject to "no interference by outside forces."Article Four states that China's reunification is the "sacred duty" of "all Chinese people," including "Taiwan compatriots."Article Five reiterates China's position that acceptance of "One China" is a necessary precondition for peaceful resolution. It does not refer to the "one country, two systems" model, but claims Taiwan would "practice systems different from those on the mainland."Article Six enumerates the steps Beijing is willing to take to realize peaceful unification, such as expanding cross-Strait exchanges, including cultural, economic, educational, science and technology, health, and sports exchanges. It also refers to "other activities" conducive to peace and stability, but does not offer details.Article Seven specifies the range of issues that would be subject to negotiation during cross-Strait consultations. The article states such negotiations would be on an "equal footing."Article Eight states the State Council and CMC "shall decide on and execute" non-peaceful means to "protect China's sovereignty and territorial integrity" if "secessionist forces . . .cause the fact of Taiwan's secession from China," if "major incidents entailing Taiwan's secession" occur, or if "possibilities for peaceful reunification" are exhausted.Article Nine provides that during conflict, China will "exert its utmost" to protect lives, property, and rights of Taiwan civilians and foreign nationals on Taiwan, and the rights of Taiwan citizens in other parts of China.Article Ten specifies that the law comes into force on the day of its proclamation.

China continues to declare a policy of peaceful resolution under the "one country, two systems" framework that offers Taiwan limited autonomy in exchange for Taiwan's integration with the mainland. China sees the potential use of force as an integral part of its policy of dissuading Taiwan from pursuing independence and encouraging it to unite ultimately with the mainland. Beijing has not renounced the use of force against Taiwan.

The threat of force against Taiwan is now codified in the "anti-secession law," enacted by the National People's Congress in March 2005.

The circumstances in which Beijing has historically claimed it would use force against the island include: a formal declaration of independence by Taipei, foreign intervention in Taiwan's internal affairs, indefinite delays in the resumption of cross-Strait dialogue, Taiwan's acquisition of nuclear weapons, and internal unrest on Taiwan.

These circumstances are not fixed and have evolved over the last decade in response to Taiwan actions and changes in China's own military capabilities. They are, moreover, deliberately general, allowing Beijing to determine the timing and form of its response.
Beijing's Courses of Action against Taiwan Although the costs of the use of force against Taiwan would be high, Beijing leaders might use force if they believed they had no other way to prevent Taiwan independence or, as implied in its "anti-secession law," to guarantee reunification over the long term.
The Chinese Communist Party came to power on its credentials as a defender of Chinese sovereignty; its leaders appear to see progress - or perhaps, the absence of failure - on the Taiwan issue as affecting the legitimacy of their rule.
Beijing is developing military capabilities that will enable it to pursue several courses of action against Taiwan, allowing Chinese leaders more flexibility to apply pressure against the island and minimize the risks of a military confrontation with the United States. The PLA is simultaneously developing the capability to deter and/or slow a potential U.S., or U.S.-led, response to defend Taiwan.
Persuasion and Coercion.
China's current approach to preventing Taiwan independence combines diplomatic, economic, legal, psychological, and military instruments to convince Taipei that the price of declaring independence is too high. This strategy combines the credible threat to use military force with the economic and cultural tools that China has at its disposal. China uses its growing economic links with Taiwan to influence political behavior on the island. Beijing seeks to attract more Taiwan investment in China, while emphasizing that peace in the Strait will bring prosperity.
Beijing is increasing its pressure on Taiwan businessmen operating in China to refrain from supporting "pro-independence" parties or individuals on Taiwan. Beijing emphasizes historic, ethnic, and cultural links between Taiwan and the mainland, and unofficial diplomacy with "Taiwan compatriots" to generate domestic propaganda in Taiwan in favor of reunification.
Beijing has also intensified its competition with Taiwan in the developing world for
diplomatic recognition. This effort has focused on eroding Taiwan's diplomatic support among the 26 remaining countries that recognize Taipei. Simultaneously, using diplomatic and commercial levers, China has increased pressure on other states to limit their relationships with and to restrain Taiwan.
Portraying a military threat to Taiwan backstops the overall campaign to isolate Taiwan diplomatically and pressure Taiwan leaders. Exercises, deployments, and press operations all contribute to Beijing's policy of pressure.
Limited Force Options. Beijing could use limited strikes, employing information
operations, special operations forces on Taiwan, and SRBM or air strikes at key military or political sites, to try to break the will of Taiwan's leadership and population. Although Beijing might view these as a complement to non-military coercion and as less than a full use of force, others may view such actions differently. Such a Chinese miscalculation could lead to a full-fledged conflict.
Third-Party Intervention
Beijing sees Washington and, increasingly, Tokyo as the principal hurdles to any attempt to use military force to coerce or capture Taiwan. Beijing might coerce or target other critical countries to deny or delay their willingness to provide support, basing, overflight rights, or transit authority to U.S. forces operating in the theater. Deterring, defeating, or delaying foreign intervention ahead of Taiwan's capitulation is integral to Beijing's strategy. To that end, Beijing will pursue political and diplomatic efforts to keep the United States and Japan from taking action to support Taiwan. The U.S. Intelligence Community also believes China will consider a sea-denial strategy to attempt to hold at risk U.S. naval forces, including aircraft carriers and logistic forces, approaching the Taiwan Strait.
Blockade
Beijing could threaten or deploy a naval blockade either as a "non-war"
pressure tactic in the pre-hostility phase or as a transition to active conflict. On one end of the spectrum, Beijing could declare that ships en route to Taiwan ports must stop in mainland ports for inspections prior to transiting on to Taiwan. Alternatively, China could attempt the equivalent of a blockade of Taiwan ports by declaring exercise or missile closure areas in approaches and roadsteads to ports to divert merchant traffic.
Chinese doctrine also includes activities such as an air blockade, missile attacks, and mining or otherwise obstructing harbors and approaches.
More traditional methods of blockade would increase the impact on Taiwan, but also would tax PLA Navy capabilities and raise the potential for direct military confrontation, particularly with U.S. naval assets. Although sea lanes closer to China (i.e., the South and East China Seas) could be interdicted, any attempt at a close-in blockade or operations on the east side of Taiwan would strain the PLA Navy, which lacks significant replenishment and open ocean surveillance capabilities. More restrictive blockades increase the likelihood of international intervention. Although any blockade would have an immediate economic impact, it would take time to realize decisive political results. It would also increase the opportunity for countervailing U.S. and international pressure and could lead to the protracted campaign Beijing seeks to avoid.
Amphibious Invasion
An invasion of Taiwan would be a complex and difficult operation relying upon timing and pre-conditions set by many subordinate campaigns.
Publicly available Chinese writings on amphibious campaigns offer different strategies for an amphibious invasion of Taiwan. The most prominent of these is the Joint Island Landing Campaign. The objective of this campaign is to break through or circumvent the shore defense, establish and build a beachhead, and then launch an attack to split, seize and occupy the entire island or important targets on the island. To achieve the final objective of the Joint Island Landing Campaign, a series of sub-campaigns, such as electronic warfare, naval, and air campaigns, must be executed, including the underlying logistics support.
Amphibious operations are logistics-intensive and rely for success upon the rapid buildup of supplies and sustainment ashore and an uninterrupted flow of support thereafter.
This particular amphibious operation would tax the lift capacities of China's armed forces needed to provide sustainment for this campaign. Add to these strains the combat at
trition of China's forces, and an amphibious invasion of Taiwan would be a significant political and military risk for China's civilian and military leaders.
The PLA's prospects in an invasion of Taiwan would hinge on: availability of

amphibious and air lift, attrition rates, interoperability of PLA forces, the ability of

China's logistic system to support the necessarily high tempo of operations, Taiwan's will to resist, and the speed and scale of third-party intervention.

it basically shows how bad china wants taiwan and how far they are willing to go.

[Pax Melmacia]

Y'know, there's much to be said about a World War 2 (or earlier) setting. Technical gobbledygook is kept to a minimum, and since the participants don't have a nuke or a shoulder-fired death ray, they would rely more on their wits and character, which would make good readin

[azreark1]

...maybe the Texas is out on patrol and goes through a storm like that one Kurt Douglas and his CVBG goes through and gets sent back to 1943 and just rakes shop with the japanese. haha j/k but that would be cool/funny but seriously unrealistic.

[Pax Melmacia]

How 'bout the other way around? I recall a comic story of a WW1 ace who warps to WW2. He shoots down a Luftwaffe fighter (his biplane was more maneuverable), then returns to 1918. The only proof he has is the tail swastika that got snagged in his wires. No one believes him because 'no unit carries such a sign'. (*BUZZ* Wrong! I know of at least one German pilot of the time who painted the swastika on his fuselage.) Next he warps to the Korean War and shoots down the MiG-15 that overshot his crawling biplane. He heads back to his time wounded. Again, no one believes him . . . until they remove the bullet of 'unknown caliber' from his body.

Cheesy, yeah, but one early sub taking on Akulas or guided torps would be a hairy challenge.