Hagia Sophia about to get turned into a mosque

Skybird · 07-10-20, 08:53 AM

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53366307

In a culture like the islamic (Persian-Arabian-Turk), where symbol-heavy metaphorically enriched, braggy and flowery language and acting is trump, the importance of this cannot be overestimated. The destruction of Christain a nnd Jewish minority cultures int he Islamic woirld goes on since years and decades, the often menmtioned "tolerance" for these is nothiugn but myth and the legal status of such minorities always is discrmi8natoryx nd disadvanatgeougs, not at all equzal to the Islamic majprity aroud n them. But that a high temple of the ideolgocial arch enemy, the Christians, gets used as a mosque, is a symbolic triumph and a "victory" celebration that cements one's own claim to domi8nate anbd to subjigate and to brign defeat to the other. Wetserners tend to not understand this or to underrtate it. In the ME, many people understand this by instinct already.

The Hagia Sophia was buld and founded as a Christain basilica. After the fall of Byzantium, the victorious Osmans Turks turned it into a mosque. In the 1930, Kemal Atatürk, correctly seeing the symbolic relevance, turned it into a museum as a greetign message to greater secularism and laicism as well as a signal to Christian Europe wo which he wanted to move closer. In the past ten years Erdoghan has increasingly threatened to turn the original basilica into a mosque again, first to piss the West, and second as a reaciton to growing tensions with Russia who called for protecting historic orthodox Christian symbols in Turkey and even called for turning the musem back into a orthodox church, as which it has served much longer in history than as a mosque.

For Erdoghan it is not only to piss Russian and Wetserners alike, but to boost his fading fame again and to reiteratwe his claim to be the leader of the Islamic world. He also pleases the Neo-osmanic nationlists, for he is one of them and openly spoke and occasionally still speaks about the Islamic conquest of Europe (under turkish leadership) with non-military means. FMigration, both third country-migrants as well as Turkish nationals, to him is an according weapon.

Platapus · 07-10-20, 09:06 AM

Does this mean that we won't get +5 faith per turn and that our Missionaries and Apostles will no longer be able to Spread Religion 1 extra time?

Skybird · 07-10-20, 09:25 AM

Us not, but them.

Especially in Germany the Turkish state ministry for religion (no joke, Turkey really has that), is allowed influences and powers that usually only German authorities can hold and that massively interfere with our communal, social and especially juristical state order and are beyond what any other foreign minority culture in Germany is being granted. Worse, the Turkish state even claims a natural right right to do so in Germany.

If we would do like that in return in Turkey, the whole Muslim world immediately would go into another uprise, with friendly inflammatory help by the osmanic wannabe-sultan.

We even have German politicians so dumb that they want Turkish becoming the second official language in Germany, including as mandatory foreign language beside English at school. The national anthem also should be sung in Turkish, these wise people say. It woudl help to avoid coinflicts.

I think they underestimate how some of the german natives tick. Especially those who become more and more tolerant for right winged politics. There is a reaosn why nazism and right extrmeism becomes en vogue again. Its an extreme reaction to an as-extreme opposite political trend.

Jimbuna · 07-10-20, 11:24 AM

When you open your borders and invite so many different religious beliefs into your country it is hardly surprising surely.

Catfish · 07-10-20, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

When you open your borders and invite so many different religious beliefs into your country it is hardly surprising surely.

Well we did not let the Turks in to Turkey?
Erdoghan does it because it fuels his patriotic and national interests and appeals to the feeling of his followers, he likes to present himself in front of monumental buildings that symbolise imperialism.
Maybe this sounds familiar

Skybird · 07-10-20, 02:17 PM

The Hagia Sophia hardly can be descriobed as a symbol of Wetsenr imperialism. Its a symbol of (orthodox) Christinaty, sicnbe it was - and is - the most important monument building in this faith. It still includes more original parts from the Byzantinian era, than the Petersdom or any other church is original", I today have read.

In other words, its a political symbol for Christian history and culture. And Erdoghan puts another symbol on top of it: converting it again to Muslim rule, illustrating Islam's superiority that way. Simple minds on the streets buy this kind of narration. Secular Turks probably not, but they are a minority in Turkey, and are in defence. A German newspaper writes that originally the basilica was build for this purpose as well by emperor Justinian: to impress the world of his time with the monumental - and clever - architecture and by that demonstrate superiority and dominance.

xristoskaiti · 07-10-20, 11:41 PM

the problem of germany and turkey that is europe and turkey is that many european industries are in turkey.
that's where it all started

August · 07-11-20, 09:21 AM

Interesting to see the forum religion haters decrying what is essentially a religious matter. Why should they care which group controls it? Or is this really just an attempt to rile up hate against a particular nationality?

Racism comes in many forms. This is one example.

Catfish · 07-11-20, 11:36 AM

This is an entirely political matter and has nothing to do with religion.
Unless you call a cynical abuse of religious matters to bolster up your dictatorship as "religious".
It is all about Erdoghan and his nationalist right-wing followers, and religion is only a token in his game of absolute power.

07-10-20, 08:53 AM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,490 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Hagia Sophia about to get turned into a mosque https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53366307 In a culture like the islamic (Persian-Arabian-Turk), where symbol-heavy metaphorically enriched, braggy and flowery language and acting is trump, the importance of this cannot be overestimated. The destruction of Christain a nnd Jewish minority cultures int he Islamic woirld goes on since years and decades, the often menmtioned "tolerance" for these is nothiugn but myth and the legal status of such minorities always is discrmi8natoryx nd disadvanatgeougs, not at all equzal to the Islamic majprity aroud n them. But that a high temple of the ideolgocial arch enemy, the Christians, gets used as a mosque, is a symbolic triumph and a "victory" celebration that cements one's own claim to domi8nate anbd to subjigate and to brign defeat to the other. Wetserners tend to not understand this or to underrtate it. In the ME, many people understand this by instinct already. The Hagia Sophia was buld and founded as a Christain basilica. After the fall of Byzantium, the victorious Osmans Turks turned it into a mosque. In the 1930, Kemal Atatürk, correctly seeing the symbolic relevance, turned it into a museum as a greetign message to greater secularism and laicism as well as a signal to Christian Europe wo which he wanted to move closer. In the past ten years Erdoghan has increasingly threatened to turn the original basilica into a mosque again, first to piss the West, and second as a reaciton to growing tensions with Russia who called for protecting historic orthodox Christian symbols in Turkey and even called for turning the musem back into a orthodox church, as which it has served much longer in history than as a mosque. For Erdoghan it is not only to piss Russian and Wetserners alike, but to boost his fading fame again and to reiteratwe his claim to be the leader of the Islamic world. He also pleases the Neo-osmanic nationlists, for he is one of them and openly spoke and occasionally still speaks about the Islamic conquest of Europe (under turkish leadership) with non-military means. FMigration, both third country-migrants as well as Turkish nationals, to him is an according weapon. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-10-20, 09:06 AM	#2
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 18,948 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Does this mean that we won't get +5 faith per turn and that our Missionaries and Apostles will no longer be able to Spread Religion 1 extra time? __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

07-10-20, 09:25 AM	#3
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,490 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Us not, but them. Especially in Germany the Turkish state ministry for religion (no joke, Turkey really has that), is allowed influences and powers that usually only German authorities can hold and that massively interfere with our communal, social and especially juristical state order and are beyond what any other foreign minority culture in Germany is being granted. Worse, the Turkish state even claims a natural right right to do so in Germany. If we would do like that in return in Turkey, the whole Muslim world immediately would go into another uprise, with friendly inflammatory help by the osmanic wannabe-sultan. We even have German politicians so dumb that they want Turkish becoming the second official language in Germany, including as mandatory foreign language beside English at school. The national anthem also should be sung in Turkish, these wise people say. It woudl help to avoid coinflicts. I think they underestimate how some of the german natives tick. Especially those who become more and more tolerant for right winged politics. There is a reaosn why nazism and right extrmeism becomes en vogue again. Its an extreme reaction to an as-extreme opposite political trend. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-10-20, 11:24 AM	#4
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,146 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	When you open your borders and invite so many different religious beliefs into your country it is hardly surprising surely. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

07-10-20, 02:17 PM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,490 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	The Hagia Sophia hardly can be descriobed as a symbol of Wetsenr imperialism. Its a symbol of (orthodox) Christinaty, sicnbe it was - and is - the most important monument building in this faith. It still includes more original parts from the Byzantinian era, than the Petersdom or any other church is original", I today have read. In other words, its a political symbol for Christian history and culture. And Erdoghan puts another symbol on top of it: converting it again to Muslim rule, illustrating Islam's superiority that way. Simple minds on the streets buy this kind of narration. Secular Turks probably not, but they are a minority in Turkey, and are in defence. A German newspaper writes that originally the basilica was build for this purpose as well by emperor Justinian: to impress the world of his time with the monumental - and clever - architecture and by that demonstrate superiority and dominance. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

07-10-20, 11:41 PM	#7
xristoskaiti Lieutenant Join Date: May 2007 Location: pireas Posts: 256 Downloads: 456 Uploads: 0	the problem of germany and turkey that is europe and turkey is that many european industries are in turkey. that's where it all started

07-11-20, 09:21 AM	#8
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 22,667 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Interesting to see the forum religion haters decrying what is essentially a religious matter. Why should they care which group controls it? Or is this really just an attempt to rile up hate against a particular nationality? Racism comes in many forms. This is one example.

07-11-20, 11:36 AM	#9
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	This is an entirely political matter and has nothing to do with religion. Unless you call a cynical abuse of religious matters to bolster up your dictatorship as "religious". It is all about Erdoghan and his nationalist right-wing followers, and religion is only a token in his game of absolute power. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.