[REL] Trigger Maru Overhauled Update BH

[Captain Wreckless]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Ahh yea that is a rough spot to be in! Must have had heavy flooding.


Yes, unfortunate side effect have noticed of editing damage model is sometimes when hit 100 hull damage game CTD and no explanation for it. Does not happen every time but does happen. I guess if boat is lost anyways. I've made some changes to damage model in upcoming version and have not had it happen yet in testing.


Not sure about the save file. Did you save close to any other units? sunken ships? land? ports? Always good to be at least 50 nm away or more (I prefer more) and make sure no sensor contacts (check hydrophone make sure cant hear anything distant, i.e. the green light does not light up on any bearing)



Were you surfaced when saved? submerged saves can be a problem. It's a SH 4 thing.

Yeah torpedo room fully flooded.
I've only had the CTD on sinking once before, but thought it was because I didn't have LAA installed correctly.
I was in the middle of nowhere on prior save. I have noticed that if I get a CTD for what ever reason the save will not load. Seems to get corrupted somehow.

[Captain Wreckless]

Sigh, I'm finding that the IJN ASW forces are to accurate for my taste. 95% of the time they will detect me surfaced at 10K+ yards (Radar I know) and submerged running at 2-3kts, 150ft+ at 7-8K yards. Even during a noisy storm. Then they drop those homing DC's. I have yet to complete a patrol, always get sunk.



Depressing as hell. Getting tired of constantly starting over.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

Sigh, I'm finding that the IJN ASW forces are to accurate for my taste. 95% of the time they will detect me surfaced at 10K+ yards (Radar I know) and submerged running at 2-3kts, 150ft+ at 7-8K yards. Even during a noisy storm. Then they drop those homing DC's. I have yet to complete a patrol, always get sunk.



Depressing as hell. Getting tired of constantly starting over.

until you acquire more experience, i suggest lowering your boats' e-propulsion RPM.
that should make you a bit quieter when submerged.

can't help with surface detection issue unless you are willing to modify the mod's AI parameters. (don't tell BH that i even suggested it).

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

Sigh, I'm finding that the IJN ASW forces are to accurate for my taste. 95% of the time they will detect me surfaced at 10K+ yards (Radar I know) and submerged running at 2-3kts, 150ft+ at 7-8K yards. Even during a noisy storm. Then they drop those homing DC's. I have yet to complete a patrol, always get sunk.



Depressing as hell. Getting tired of constantly starting over.

Need a few more details...what is the month/year. What type of boat are you in?

Keep in mind, if you are by chance in a S boat, things will be more difficult.
S boats are noisy in this sim to begin with and believe were made even more so with the original TMO mod. I never tweaked the engines or anything, just the damage model and max depth, they were tanks and could dive far too deep before. For upcoming version I'm including a revamped enemy sound/sonar sensors to be more in line with player running s boats. Sim is built around fleetboats. Still testing but goal is to keep the challenge but permit player to have realistic experience in S boats, not diving far beyond 150 feet, etc

First, don't give up the ship. Not being critical, but you're doing something wrong that is getting you detected. Even if they have radar, unless you're sailing broadside directly to their beam for long period of time, should should not detect you in most cases. They can, but usually will not. I routinely attack convoys with radar equipped escorts on the surface at night and about 3000-3500 yds range from the ESCORT, depending on profile to the beam. Make sure your periscopes and SD antenna was DOWN while submerged. The IJN surface search radar's min height was altered to get more realistic long range performance, i.e. not spotted a sub 12 miles away like its a BB because subs were difficult to detect on radar esp at long ranges. Basically, the beam is set to where it just skims over the periscope shears, i mean by inches probably or 1 ft lol so with masts raised, it will detect them. I found this out in hours of testing when modifying the radar years back.

Visually, 10000 yards is 4.94 nautical miles, if you're that close on the surface in daylight, you should be spotted, need ot keep a minimum of six miles from enemy vessels in daylight and that is pushing it, I keep 8-10. If pulling ahead for attack, need to dive 8-10 miles ahead and provide time to close to attack position. That is realistic as Japanese had excellent optics and well trained lookouts and while a sub is difficult to spot compared to other ships, on a clear sunny day, they are doing to spot you. Of course there are many factors such as your profile to them i.e. angle on bow, fog, light etc.


Submerged...

I am getting the impression you're too close making too much noise.

Try this...

If you are surfaced and ahead of attack, make sure are 8-10 mile ahead.

Soon as you head your boats engines switch from diesel to electric motors when submerged, order 1/3 speed and soon as see the "Rig for Silent Running" button become clickable, rig for silent running. This will cut you boats noises down during the approach. Not most realistic thing but way devs designed sensors to work, its necessary to make a approach and get close for attack. After torpedo impact, I secure silent running until or if escorts locate me and rig again.

Pay attention the RPM's on the tachometer in at the helm station in conning tower or control room. Speed is not concern so much as RPM , when rigged for silent running at 1/3 speed most boats do around 80 RPM. Anything less than 100 youre solid in silent running situation. With silent running enabled, it cuts down other noises your boat projects aside from the engine noises.

Often, you may need to make a high speed submerged run to close the range for a shot. Skippers in real life often found themselves having to do this. This will test your plotting skills for sure. If need to do this, 150 ft is a bit too shallow for making such noise. Go to 250 ft minimum, if moving at full or flank speed, go for 300-350, if seas are really calm, def want to be at 350. Listen for thermal layer, being below a thermal layer is important, most thermal layers are below 150 ft I have found.




SH 4 simulates this as it has three sets of engines for subs....two are visible to us, diesels and electrics used in normal operations. A third are "silent engines" or "creep engines". When silent running is active, these simulate the electric motors but are quieter than normal engines, more difficult for AI to hear. When take damage not as quiet and in TMO they can be destroyed. They are linked to electric motors so if those are damaged or destroyer boat will be extra noisy. Boat also has a noise signature aside from its motors, it simulates pump noises etc. When on silent running, these noises are greatly reduced.


Evasion

"homing DC's" they are not, I promise. Type 95's are easier to evade because their sink rate is slower, Type 2 has a high sink rate so can reach depth faster and pack more of a punch but promise can be evaded.


So you have just completed attack, escorts are closing. Order 20 degrees rudder to appropriate direction to closest escort, so your angle on the bow is narrow as possible, this will give his sonar beam less of a target and make it more difficult for him to accurately track you. Order depth, say 200-250 ft. or if find a thermal layer, level off about 5-10 feet below it, unless really shallow. Once turned into him with near zero AOB as possible, list keep moving. When hes close about to pass above, go to ahead standard. As he passes above, listen carefully for his last ping. Once e has stopped pinging, order ahead flank and if at 250, order 300 feet. Listen for the splashes of depth charges
, once hear splashes make sure your dive angle is minimal, don't want your stern sticking up at the depth you were where most of the charges will be exploding, remember the length of the boat.

Now once pattern of charges have exploded and think thats it, order all stop and ten degrees rudder starboard or left. This will make you quiet for a moment, allow momentum of the boat running at flank speed to carry you along and into the turn, then go back to 1/3 speed after 1-2 minutes.

Escort comes in for another run, repeat the procedure, changing direction and depth. Over time, this will confuse the AI and prevent consistent contact. AI is on a timer once it is attacking a sub (not sure what it is exactly, hardcoded) and gives up after x amount of time without solid contact.

Say you're 100 ft beyond test depth and its not safe to go too much deeper, trying going back to 300 for a couple runs, then back to 350 etc. Again, changing it up. Once in a while, when appropriate, go all back emergency as escort roars above to drop charges. You will be heading in opposite direction you were when he last pinged and most charges will exploded ahead of you. go to back 1/3 for a few minutes until next DC attack, then ahead flake and change directions. Again, over time, this will confuse the enemy.


Damage model was changed in the update so you're boat could take a beating, as subs often really did, but even a really close charge can take you out in a instant or cause mortal damage, which is why have to get out from under the patterns. The ominous "magic" depth charge TMO was notorious with is very rare now. Usually only happens when youre way beyond test depth and the safety factor, where the extra pressure effects of underwater explosions are exacerbated and can cause hull failure. Example...

in testing I found a Balao with test depth of 400 ft can take a close charge and not suffer hull collapse at 500-550 feet. But at 600+ feet, same type of charge, exact same distance, so same hit points, will cause heavier damage, even hull damage and at that depth, even losing a little hull integrity can cause hull collapse. Tolerances vary with the class of boat you have. I consider every fleet boat to have a safety zone of 100 feet below their test depth.


Also, you could try the depth charge disturbance mod ( I will post a link here shortly) I released a few weeks back. This is a revamp of TheDarkWraith's
excellent mod customized for TMO Update. I don't use it because to me it makes AI counter attacks too easy and duration if generally shorter (not always, depends) but its there and was something real life subs use to get away, the moments are depth charge attack when enemy's sound gear was essentially useless due to water disturbances caused by underwater explosions.

Hope this helps, don't give up though, you can do this. TMO drove me nuts when I first started using it as well, it is more difficult than other mods, which was its point, to force player to use proper tactics, decision making, etc for a challenging yet rewarding experience. At times, esp due to the damage model it was too easy to get killed, which is why I've worked to modify things for a improved experience. Let me know if have any questions.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

until you acquire more experience, i suggest lowering your boats' e-propulsion RPM.
that should make you a bit quieter when submerged.

can't help with surface detection issue unless you are willing to modify the mod's AI parameters. (don't tell BH that i even suggested it).

Haha! Well, I mean free to do as wishes with his install and possible that toning things down until navigated learning curve a bit could help, really depends on the individual. However, t to get the intended experience of the mod as it was built and strenuously tested, believe it would serve Captains better to learn to work around things, navigate the learning curve as is, but depends on the individual. Whatever makes it enjoyable for them as individuals

[Captain Wreckless]

I've played this game for years (though I took a break for awhile) and always have been able to survive/evade ASW attacks most of the time. Running TWO/RSRD , no problem. This version is a little more difficult.



Not complaining just my observation of my experiences.



Really like the update. Can't wait for your newest update.

[Captain Wreckless]

USS Nautilus, Speed 0, depth 200ft, water depth 1000ft, west of Okinawa harbor waiting for darkness. Heavy rain, can't see s@#$!

Sonar is tracking a DD just milling around. Suddenly it's speed picks up and turns toward my sub. Next thing I know it is dropping DCs on me.

How the F@*$ did he find me?

Must have a spy onboard.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

I've played this game for years (though I took a break for awhile) and always have been able to survive/evade ASW attacks most of the time. Running TWO/RSRD , no problem. This version is a little more difficult.



Not complaining just my observation of my experiences.



Really like the update. Can't wait for your newest update.

Glad you are enjoying it. I hope did not come across as as if thought was talking to a noob lol, not how I mean my response to be taken. I was just giving advice on operating/surving in this version of the mod, which is, as stated, more difficult than others, it is TMO after all.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

USS Nautilus, Speed 0, depth 200ft, water depth 1000ft, west of Okinawa harbor waiting for darkness. Heavy rain, can't see s@#$!

Sonar is tracking a DD just milling around. Suddenly it's speed picks up and turns toward my sub. Next thing I know it is dropping DCs on me.

How the F@*$ did he find me?

Must have a spy onboard.

nah, it's the cook banging pans around.

you need to enforce some noise-discipline amongst the crew.

the beatings will continue until the morale improves!

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

USS Nautilus, Speed 0, depth 200ft, water depth 1000ft, west of Okinawa harbor waiting for darkness. Heavy rain, can't see s@#$!

Sonar is tracking a DD just milling around. Suddenly it's speed picks up and turns toward my sub. Next thing I know it is dropping DCs on me.

How the F@*$ did he find me?

Must have a spy onboard.

I am confused as to what is happening, as this is not my experience in TMO.



Were you on silent running? What range were you when he detected you ?

Keep in mind Narwhal is a large, noisy boat.

May not be that he heard you, but that his active sonar got you. Basically,
a flaw in SH 4 is the AI is nearly always pinging, even when you can't hear it. Basically you only hear the ping when its focused on your or very close to you. AI has two "moods" , one is normal, other is alert, obviously alert happens when player is detected or reported by others nearby.


A escort sailing along "normal" is pinging, if you get within range, and in his "sonar cone" of his beam and gets a contact will detect you. Your profile to the beam, depth, skill of enemy, type of active sonar he has plays in. 200 ft , his beam will probably get a reflection if youre within the cone.


See the original TMO manual in the TMO Update download, search it for explanation of enemy sonar in TMO)


Also DD patrol vessels etc on patrolsand guarding harbors etc are typically set to ELITE skill level, so best to give them a wide berth.

[Captain Wreckless]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

I am confused as to what is happening, as this is not my experience in TMO.



Were you on silent running? What range were you when he detected you ?

Keep in mind Narwhal is a large, noisy boat.

May not be that he heard you, but that his active sonar got you. Basically,
a flaw in SH 4 is the AI is nearly always pinging, even when you can't hear it. Basically you only hear the ping when its focused on your or very close to you. AI has two "moods" , one is normal, other is alert, obviously alert happens when player is detected or reported by others nearby.


A escort sailing along "normal" is pinging, if you get within range, and in his "sonar cone" of his beam and gets a contact will detect you. Your profile to the beam, depth, skill of enemy, type of active sonar he has plays in. 200 ft , his beam will probably get a reflection if youre within the cone.


See the original TMO manual in the TMO Update download, search it for explanation of enemy sonar in TMO)


Also DD patrol vessels etc on patrolsand guarding harbors etc are typically set to ELITE skill level, so best to give them a wide berth.

I was motionless Zero speed. I was probably about 5 miles off the harbor entrance tracking various merchies and this DD. Must have been 2 hours game time.

It's just weird that all of a sudden it started a DC run on me. It was at long range when it started the run. I have no idea what the game considers long range or medium and short for that matter.

I'm guessing it was at least over 5K or 6K yards away.

I never seen this before. All other times I was deep and not moving, DDs wouldn't find me. I've even had them pass over head without as much as a ping from them,

Sounds like I'm complaining, etc... Don't mean for it to sound that way. I'm actually enjoying the mod. Weird this will happen.

I will have to tell the crew not to break out the drums and brass instruments during down time.

[Captain Wreckless]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

I am confused as to what is happening, as this is not my experience in TMO.



Were you on silent running? What range were you when he detected you ?

Keep in mind Narwhal is a large, noisy boat.

May not be that he heard you, but that his active sonar got you. Basically,
a flaw in SH 4 is the AI is nearly always pinging, even when you can't hear it. Basically you only hear the ping when its focused on your or very close to you. AI has two "moods" , one is normal, other is alert, obviously alert happens when player is detected or reported by others nearby.


A escort sailing along "normal" is pinging, if you get within range, and in his "sonar cone" of his beam and gets a contact will detect you. Your profile to the beam, depth, skill of enemy, type of active sonar he has plays in. 200 ft , his beam will probably get a reflection if youre within the cone.


See the original TMO manual in the TMO Update download, search it for explanation of enemy sonar in TMO)


Also DD patrol vessels etc on patrolsand guarding harbors etc are typically set to ELITE skill level, so best to give them a wide berth.

Well he must have been pinging and found me.


Has anyone noted that when you click the weather report icon, that it sometimes is incorrect? I've surface into what I thought was either clear or stormy skies and find just the opposite.

Most of the time it will report no precip and it is pouring down rain. Not a big deal as I use the F12 external view alot.

[Captain Wreckless]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

nah, it's the cook banging pans around.

you need to enforce some noise-discipline amongst the crew.

the beatings will continue until the morale improves!

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

I was motionless Zero speed. I was probably about 5 miles off the harbor entrance tracking various merchies and this DD. Must have been 2 hours game time.

It's just weird that all of a sudden it started a DC run on me. It was at long range when it started the run. I have no idea what the game considers long range or medium and short for that matter.

I'm guessing it was at least over 5K or 6K yards away.

I never seen this before. All other times I was deep and not moving, DDs wouldn't find me. I've even had them pass over head without as much as a ping from them,

Sounds like I'm complaining, etc... Don't mean for it to sound that way. I'm actually enjoying the mod. Weird this will happen.

I will have to tell the crew not to break out the drums and brass instruments during down time.

It is okay, did not take it as complaining, just trying to figure out why keep getting detected, because that does not happen to me.

Unseen aircraft spotted you? They can spot you under water at certain depths, depending on various factors. They will alert nearby escorts. Periscope spotted at some point during observation? Perhaps detected by merchants when obseeving them, they will "report" your presence to the nearby patrol vessels, which will come out to "greet" you. Depending on time of war, some merchants get hydrophones for self defense purposes, their range is limited but if they pick up a submarine, will report you. In new version, some merchants will carry defensive depth charges, so if detect you, are close enough, and depending on skill level that particular ship is set, may drop a ash can or two on you. They won't hunt you like a escort, but will take the opportunity to drop on you.


Yea, tell your boys to pipe down when enemy are nearby lol.

[Captain Wreckless]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

It is okay, did not take it as complaining, just trying to figure out why keep getting detected, because that does not happen to me.

Unseen aircraft spotted you? They can spot you under water at certain depths, depending on various factors. They will alert nearby escorts. Periscope spotted at some point during observation? Perhaps detected by merchants when obseeving them, they will "report" your presence to the nearby patrol vessels, which will come out to "greet" you. Depending on time of war, some merchants get hydrophones for self defense purposes, their range is limited but if they pick up a submarine, will report you. In new version, some merchants will carry defensive depth charges, so if detect you, are close enough, and depending on skill level that particular ship is set, may drop a ash can or two on you. They won't hunt you like a escort, but will take the opportunity to drop on you.


Yea, tell your boys to pipe down when enemy are nearby lol.

None of the above.

Anyway, do you know if the ASW ships have limited supply of DCs?


I got detected by a DD and then spent the next 11 hrs game time trying to evade him. The first 4-5 hours he would drop on me. Only slight damage 1 time. Went to 260ft and no damage from then on. After awhile the DD would make runs on me but would not drop any DCs.