Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine - Page 8

Alex · 02-21-14, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

I'm afraid of what's going to happen next week after the Olympics is over.

I'm afraid, that if a agreement haven't been made, the Ukrainian government with the support from Russia is going to engage the military against the civilians.

I hope I'm wrong.

Markus

The ukrainian government should support and provide defensive and offensive weapons to Ukrainian citizen who wish to take on those who have that destabilizing role in the country actually, so that the power will be able to deploy the Ukrainian military legitimately declaring a state of high alert in order to avoid civil war.

No doubt the ukrainian power will be thinking about the syrian example in order to avoid falling into the Libyan situation.

TarJak · 02-21-14, 05:56 AM

No doubt. The EU ministers on the ground are staying quiet so far and given Putin's backing of Yanukovych, its hard to see him not having asked for his pound of flesh.

Oberon · 02-21-14, 06:52 AM

Myeah, I don't see this agreement holding that long...if it had been proposed last week then perhaps...but the radicalists are out for blood now, and it's been the radicalists that have been leading the charge over the past 48 hours. I don't think they will accept anything other than Yanukovich's immediate resignation and trial.

Dan D · 02-21-14, 06:53 AM

To those who criticise the EU here, I would like to point out that a common EU foreign policy is not existent.

That is because the EU member states can't agree on a common foreign policy. So each country does it own. Take France's intervention in Mali as example, or France and the UK with regard to Syria.

The fact that Catherine Ashton became the first „EU foreign minister“ is very telling. Who the **** is she? Even in the UK many people had never heard of her before.

There is no political will to have a common EU foreign policy, the single member states want to keep the influence of the EU on foreign policy small.

Henry Kissinger once said: „Europe? Give me a name and a phone number“. That is meant when the US side says „**** the EU“. The US foreign minister still has to call all his colleagues in Europe, if he wants to discuss something.

The EU does not take place on the field of international diplomacy. The EU is more about the common market idea.

Skybird · 02-21-14, 07:14 AM

So much for the theory. In reality, there is almost no area where the EU does not try to claim authority for final decision making, maybe with the exception of defence and health - and even here they are trying hard to push themselves in. The EU is not the EEC anymore, and it aims at much more thna just a shared economic market. Under the label of "common market", it tries to sell total unification, and everything.

Paper magic. They are masters of that. All politicians are. In Germany, after reunification we should have had a referendum and a new constztituion replacing the basic law, it was demanded by the Basic Law. We are still waiting. The EU constitution was rjected by the EU's own rules. They shuffled the content, left the content unchanged nevertheless, and decided it against the people behind locked doors. The history of the mEuro is a flawless chain of broken promises, violated laws, betrayed treaties and lies and manipulations. But politicians and their clever word magicans always had clever excuses to defend why they broke the rules all the time, when it was opportune for them.

Lesson from it: laws, treaties and promises mean nothing anymore. The art lies in finding out how to get away with something.

The label "common market" is just a deception that should minimize what they really are after: a European centrally governed superstate with an economy planned and controlled in the EU headquarter: planned economy. A Europe-wide USSR, so to speak. The parallels in power structures and power mechanisms inside the EU now already have intimidating parallels to that in the old USSR. The controlling head body of the ECB can only be compared with then Italian Mafia, however - just that they have the bonus to owe accountability to nobody, and enjoy total immunity from legal prosecution. Even the full list of names on the board is a secret, and what it decides and when it meets is a secret, too. Mafiosi at least could be identified, hunted, and brought to jail.

Oberon · 02-21-14, 05:24 PM

Trouble could still be brewing:

Quote:

Protesters booed opposition leader Vitaly Klitschko at Maidan Square on Friday as he attempted to speak during a memorial service for a protester killed during recent clashes.
Klitschko apologized to protesters for shaking Yanukovich’s hand. “Believe me - I got no pleasure out of it. If I offended anyone, I apologize for that, but I did it so Ukraine could win. I'm doing everything with sincerity, I'm doing everything in my power to prevent bloodshed, I'm doing everything to make this gang leave,” Unian quoted him as saying.

Quote:

Leader of far-right group Right Sector, Dmitri Yarosh, told the protesters at Maidan Square that the deal reached between the president and the opposition is not acceptable, Euromaidan PR tweeted. Yarosh said that his group will not be putting down their arms until President Viktor Yanukovich resigns. “The Right Sector will not lay down its arms. The Right Sector will not remove the blockade of one of the government buildings until our most important requirement is fulfilled – the resignation of Yanukovich,” Unian quoted him as saying.

Quote:

Radicals set ultimatum: will storm if president Yanukovich doesn't step down before 10am on Saturday

Source - http://rt.com/news/kiev-clashes-rioters-police-571/

Skybird · 02-21-14, 05:43 PM

No word on Putin. I just cannot imagine that he would so easily swallow defeat in his most important and dearest strategic project. While scepticism over the "deal" signed is in need, the time tables set up there, with elections by the end of the year, leave a huge door open for "workaround scenarios" for Yanukovich and Putin. Seeing how bitterly Russia sticks to the Syrian regime, optimism sees little basis today - even more so with Klitschko and Co representing only a part of the opposition - and the other parts, not forgetting nor forgiving the bloodshed of recent days, are less "pragmatic" regarding letting Yanukovich stay in office for the time being.

And today I read a long analysis of the Ukrainian finances (or better: the lack of finances). I can only say: Russia, take the Ukraine yourself if you want it so desperately, and save us Germans and Dutch and Fins and Austrians needing to bail out a bigger hungry mouth than Greece and Cyprus and the others together. From the EU's and ECB's perspective, the Ukraine should be seen not just a mess - it is a nightmare. But of course, once again party and idealism will kill any sense of realism, I fear. The Ukraine joining the EU - I already know whose money will dissappear by the many billions in that black hole.

If there would be such a fight in Germany, and people dera to me would have gotten killed by thje government and I see dozens if not hundreds of civilians killed - would I accept agreements that leave the government the chance to manouver out of the corner, and getting away with the massacre? No. And Yanukovich - let's face it, like Assad, he now is a case for an international tribunal. And that is the guy the EU negotiates with now - in - once again - betrayal of its own often claimed superior ideals.

Sometimes opportunistic pragmatism just is not the correct way to go. It sometimes is and must be and should be about more than just that. Sometimes, pragmatism just is not good enough.

Anyway, for us Europeans, it all is a no win-no win situation. Either we leave domination and victory to Russia, or we pick up a giant bill not really helping our own financial and political troubles. Catch-22.

TarJak · 02-22-14, 05:44 AM

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-0...eports/5277588

Reports that Yanukovych has left Kiev as opposition occupies his office.

Jimbuna · 02-22-14, 06:22 AM

He'll be on his way to some safe haven in Russia...the house of cards has almost totally collapsed.

Oberon · 02-22-14, 06:40 AM

He's not gone to Russia (I doubt they'd take him just yet, not until he's at least tried to crack down on the protesters) but he's fled to the relatively safe east of the country.

Now things are going to get tricky, because with Yanukovich out of Kiev, the military forces in the city might well decide that they know which way the wind is blowing (especially since half of the Ukrainian government has jumped ship) and switch sides...and then we start tiptoeing into a civil war.

Dread Knot · 02-22-14, 09:06 AM

Sounds like the jailed opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko has been voted to be freed.

Skybird · 02-22-14, 09:39 AM

Police in Kiev has turned sides. Yanukovich is in Charkow, a stronghold of his and the pro-Russian party in the Ukraine. This could mean he prepares to flee to Russia - or that he prepares to dig himself in. In recent reports it is said he speaks of a "coup" and that there will be a TV speech by him later today. Both could mean anything: that he will announce to leave office, or prepares to set up a fight. In Charkow, pro-Russian political forces have gathered and hold a conference that has been scheduled since loger time.

What do the Americans say? It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings.

I still cannot imagine that Putin lets go so easily, the Ukraine is so much more important for Russia than Syria - and look how deeply they have dug themselves in there! He could put his darling project of re-establishing a follow-up to the former USSR's sphere of influence ad acta, if he gives up the Ukraine.

Also, all the financial support the Russians are giving, would be stopped if they declare the Ukraine a lost case. Guess who pays them bills then - us. And we talk about money in the high billions immediately, and more in the medium and long run (fiscal collapse is imminent in the Ukraine).

Thank God there are money printers and a de facto established European transfer union. Thank God that the devaluation of money and de facto expropriation of private wealth that they bring, is being ignored by the ordinary people.

The young people in our own countries? Cry for them. Any snowball system sooner or later must come to an end - and the young ones are the last players who stood at the end of the line. Guess how it will end for them.

Dread Knot · 02-22-14, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

What do the Americans say? It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings.

Only because we can't pronounce Gotterdammerung.

Skybird · 02-22-14, 09:56 AM

And vice versa, "Börn to be wild" would not be any better.

Nor would "Love is like a ring of börning fire."

Moonlight · 02-22-14, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Sounds like the jailed opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko has been voted to be freed.

She reminds me of princess leia, I hope the force is still with her.

02-21-14, 06:53 AM	#109
Dan D Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: 9th Flotilla Posts: 839 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	To those who criticise the EU here, I would like to point out that a common EU foreign policy is not existent. That is because the EU member states can't agree on a common foreign policy. So each country does it own. Take France's intervention in Mali as example, or France and the UK with regard to Syria. The fact that Catherine Ashton became the first „EU foreign minister“ is very telling. Who the ** is she? Even in the UK many people had never heard of her before. There is no political will to have a common EU foreign policy, the single member states want to keep the influence of the EU on foreign policy small. Henry Kissinger once said: „Europe? Give me a name and a phone number“. That is meant when the US side says „** the EU“. The US foreign minister still has to call all his colleagues in Europe, if he wants to discuss something. The EU does not take place on the field of international diplomacy. The EU is more about the common market idea. __________________

02-21-14, 07:14 AM	#110
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,490 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	So much for the theory. In reality, there is almost no area where the EU does not try to claim authority for final decision making, maybe with the exception of defence and health - and even here they are trying hard to push themselves in. The EU is not the EEC anymore, and it aims at much more thna just a shared economic market. Under the label of "common market", it tries to sell total unification, and everything. Paper magic. They are masters of that. All politicians are. In Germany, after reunification we should have had a referendum and a new constztituion replacing the basic law, it was demanded by the Basic Law. We are still waiting. The EU constitution was rjected by the EU's own rules. They shuffled the content, left the content unchanged nevertheless, and decided it against the people behind locked doors. The history of the mEuro is a flawless chain of broken promises, violated laws, betrayed treaties and lies and manipulations. But politicians and their clever word magicans always had clever excuses to defend why they broke the rules all the time, when it was opportune for them. Lesson from it: laws, treaties and promises mean nothing anymore. The art lies in finding out how to get away with something. The label "common market" is just a deception that should minimize what they really are after: a European centrally governed superstate with an economy planned and controlled in the EU headquarter: planned economy. A Europe-wide USSR, so to speak. The parallels in power structures and power mechanisms inside the EU now already have intimidating parallels to that in the old USSR. The controlling head body of the ECB can only be compared with then Italian Mafia, however - just that they have the bonus to owe accountability to nobody, and enjoy total immunity from legal prosecution. Even the full list of names on the board is a secret, and what it decides and when it meets is a secret, too. Mafiosi at least could be identified, hunted, and brought to jail. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 02-21-14 at 07:24 AM.

02-21-14, 05:43 PM	#112
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,490 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	No word on Putin. I just cannot imagine that he would so easily swallow defeat in his most important and dearest strategic project. While scepticism over the "deal" signed is in need, the time tables set up there, with elections by the end of the year, leave a huge door open for "workaround scenarios" for Yanukovich and Putin. Seeing how bitterly Russia sticks to the Syrian regime, optimism sees little basis today - even more so with Klitschko and Co representing only a part of the opposition - and the other parts, not forgetting nor forgiving the bloodshed of recent days, are less "pragmatic" regarding letting Yanukovich stay in office for the time being. And today I read a long analysis of the Ukrainian finances (or better: the lack of finances). I can only say: Russia, take the Ukraine yourself if you want it so desperately, and save us Germans and Dutch and Fins and Austrians needing to bail out a bigger hungry mouth than Greece and Cyprus and the others together. From the EU's and ECB's perspective, the Ukraine should be seen not just a mess - it is a nightmare. But of course, once again party and idealism will kill any sense of realism, I fear. The Ukraine joining the EU - I already know whose money will dissappear by the many billions in that black hole. If there would be such a fight in Germany, and people dera to me would have gotten killed by thje government and I see dozens if not hundreds of civilians killed - would I accept agreements that leave the government the chance to manouver out of the corner, and getting away with the massacre? No. And Yanukovich - let's face it, like Assad, he now is a case for an international tribunal. And that is the guy the EU negotiates with now - in - once again - betrayal of its own often claimed superior ideals. Sometimes opportunistic pragmatism just is not the correct way to go. It sometimes is and must be and should be about more than just that. Sometimes, pragmatism just is not good enough. Anyway, for us Europeans, it all is a no win-no win situation. Either we leave domination and victory to Russia, or we pick up a giant bill not really helping our own financial and political troubles. Catch-22. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-22-14, 06:22 AM	#114
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,146 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	He'll be on his way to some safe haven in Russia...the house of cards has almost totally collapsed. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

02-22-14, 09:39 AM	#117
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,490 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Police in Kiev has turned sides. Yanukovich is in Charkow, a stronghold of his and the pro-Russian party in the Ukraine. This could mean he prepares to flee to Russia - or that he prepares to dig himself in. In recent reports it is said he speaks of a "coup" and that there will be a TV speech by him later today. Both could mean anything: that he will announce to leave office, or prepares to set up a fight. In Charkow, pro-Russian political forces have gathered and hold a conference that has been scheduled since loger time. What do the Americans say? It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings. I still cannot imagine that Putin lets go so easily, the Ukraine is so much more important for Russia than Syria - and look how deeply they have dug themselves in there! He could put his darling project of re-establishing a follow-up to the former USSR's sphere of influence ad acta, if he gives up the Ukraine. Also, all the financial support the Russians are giving, would be stopped if they declare the Ukraine a lost case. Guess who pays them bills then - us. And we talk about money in the high billions immediately, and more in the medium and long run (fiscal collapse is imminent in the Ukraine). Thank God there are money printers and a de facto established European transfer union. Thank God that the devaluation of money and de facto expropriation of private wealth that they bring, is being ignored by the ordinary people. The young people in our own countries? Cry for them. Any snowball system sooner or later must come to an end - and the young ones are the last players who stood at the end of the line. Guess how it will end for them. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-21-14, 05:56 AM	#107
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	No doubt. The EU ministers on the ground are staying quiet so far and given Putin's backing of Yanukovych, its hard to see him not having asked for his pound of flesh.

02-21-14, 06:52 AM	#108
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Myeah, I don't see this agreement holding that long...if it had been proposed last week then perhaps...but the radicalists are out for blood now, and it's been the radicalists that have been leading the charge over the past 48 hours. I don't think they will accept anything other than Yanukovich's immediate resignation and trial.

02-22-14, 05:44 AM	#113
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-0...eports/5277588 Reports that Yanukovych has left Kiev as opposition occupies his office.

02-22-14, 06:40 AM	#115
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	He's not gone to Russia (I doubt they'd take him just yet, not until he's at least tried to crack down on the protesters) but he's fled to the relatively safe east of the country. Now things are going to get tricky, because with Yanukovich out of Kiev, the military forces in the city might well decide that they know which way the wind is blowing (especially since half of the Ukrainian government has jumped ship) and switch sides...and then we start tiptoeing into a civil war.

02-22-14, 09:06 AM	#116
Dread Knot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hawkeye State Highlands Posts: 1,288 Downloads: 84 Uploads: 0	Sounds like the jailed opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko has been voted to be freed.

02-22-14, 09:56 AM	#119
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,490 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	And vice versa, "Börn to be wild" would not be any better. Nor would "Love is like a ring of börning fire." __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.