Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[ikalugin]

"No one ever verifies quotes found on the Internet" - Lenin.

[Oberon]

[Catfish]

^

[Sbygneus]

Sometimes I have a notion there are only Russians and rusophiles speaking here.
Meanwhile Nemtsov is dead. Another "triumph" of Russian democracy. Sleep well Boris Nemtsov - brave man. One of the last free-thinking in Russia.

[Bilge_Rat]

This is from Jane's. The numbers for Russian troops seem to be on the high side, but the briefers included retired General Wesley Clark:

The Potomac team was led by its director, Dr Phil Karber, a former senior official within the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and General Wesley Clark (rtd), who served as NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) from 1997-2000.

The main points made by the briefers were as follows:

- There are currently 14,400 Russian troops on Ukrainian territory backing up the 29,300 illegally armed formations of separatists in eastern Ukraine. These units are well equipped with the latest main battle tanks, armoured personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, plus hundreds of pieces of tube and rocket artillery. There are also 29,400 Russian troops in Crimea and 55,800 massed along the border with eastern Ukraine.

- Russian units have made heavy use of electronic warfare (EW) and what appear to be high-power microwave (HPM) systems to jam not only the communications and reconnaissance assets of the Ukrainian armed forces but to also disable the surveillance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) operated by ceasefire monitoring teams from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). Russian EW teams have targeted the Schiebel Camcopter UAVs operated by the monitors and "melted the onboard electronics so that drones just fly around uncontrolled in circles before they crash to the ground", said one of the briefers at the conference.

- Russian EW, communications and other units central to their military operations are typically placed adjacent to kindergartens, hospitals or apartment buildings so that Ukrainian units are unable to launch any strikes against them without causing unacceptable and horrific collateral casualties.

- The war against Ukraine is not a "new" strategy for Moscow; the Russian general staff has been preparing for Ukraine-type combat operations since 1999.

- The Russian military's Zapad 2013 exercise (the word 'Zapad' meaning 'West' in Russian to denote that it was an operation designed to practice operations against NATO) was a dress-rehearsal for parts of the Ukraine campaign and future potential operations against the Baltic states. The exercise involved 76,300 total troops, 60% of which were drawn from the same Russian Interior Ministry (MVD) units that were used in the Chechen conflicts of the 1990s.

- Russia's information warfare campaign includes budgeting for the state-run Russia Today network (more than USD300 million per annum) and support for pro-Russian NGOs (USD100 million per annum).

Overall, the Ukrainian military continues to be severely disadvantaged by not being equipped with a list of the items that are becoming well known to those watching the current situation in eastern Ukraine: secure communications systems; anti-tank guided weapons with tandem warheads; counter-battery radars; UAVs for both reconnaissance and strike missions; and the ability to stream multiple intelligence sources into centralised command centres to get inside the 'decision loop' of the Russian-backed forces.

http://www.janes.com/article/49469/u...6cbc6bcc0b8175

[Oberon]

What does Russia gain from the Baltic states?

[CCIP]

To be fair, excercises and existing military plans don't always mean intention to invade. Pretty sure the US still have their plan to invade Canada.

At this point, Russia should know better than try to get involved with the Baltic states. The motivation, of course, would be to protect the Russian speakers there, but since those are NATO members, it probably is more a just-in-case/doomsday scenario than anything.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Sbygneus

Sometimes I have a notion there are only Russians and rusophiles speaking here.
Meanwhile Nemtsov is dead. Another "triumph" of Russian democracy. Sleep well Boris Nemtsov - brave man. One of the last free-thinking in Russia.

Yeah, it seems that way. Probably the people who are not Putin apologists simply don't see any point in debating the issue any more. Nemtsov is the latest in a long line of people who have been murdered in Russia when they cross the dictator. Until the Russian people stop allowing this, it will continue.

[CCIP]

Wait, so by that logic, a requirement for having a reasonable opinion on the topic is to be non-Russian and a russophobe?

Check your bias, sir

As said many times, there's unfortunately propaganda on all sides of the conflict. Buying into one side's over the other's doesn't make a perspective any more valid. As for Nemtsov, I recommend my thread on the topic.

[Oberon]

Just because people aren't willing to give Ukraine a free ride, doesn't mean that they are pro-Putin...

[August]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Probably the people who are not Putin apologists simply don't see any point in debating the issue any more.

This ^

[Oberon]

[CCIP]

^yup

If anything, it's the pro-Ukrainian side where I see an unwillingness to debate, and only a willingness to sloganize. Minds have obviously made up and heels dug in.

And I think bringing Nemtsov into this out of nowhere is yet another example of non-debate tactics - but I bet that most people here haven't even heard of Nemtsov or cared what he had to say until he was suddenly dead. I'm sorry, but that's both unfair and disrespectful. Besides, he's Russian, so who cares what he said?

[Onkel Neal]

Yeah, touched a nerve.

Sorry, the man had a concern about the direction of this discussion, and I felt it was important to let him know not everyone sees the emergence of a fascist government in Russia in muddled shades of grey.

But, hey, thanks for the Bush gif, that makes it better

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by CCIP

^yup

If anything, it's the pro-Ukrainian side where I see an unwillingness to debate, and only a willingness to sloganize. Minds have obviously made up and heels dug in.

Sloganise about what exactly?

about the fact that Russia has invaded them, annexed Crimea and now has as many as 14,000 ground troops in East Ukraine?

just because Russians keep repeating they have no troops there and the West wants to make us look bad, you believe them?