I've missed you, Skybird! :) (re: DW and SA)

[Jamie]

Since Skybird seems to be closing all sorts of topics in here, it makes it hard to respond to his nuggets of sage wisdom... I'm sure he'll close this topic as well eventually.

Originally Posted by Skybird

I must agree with 3star on what he said about DW and SBP. DW is a game with very strong sim-elements, and it was deliberately designed to be a game package, although for a niche-market. It is, imo, more bugged then SBP (although not that much like SC was). SBP is a professional training tool, and has no feature that was designed with a possebility of a game-release in mind. It also is in a technically better shape and condition, only one medium-to-heavy category bug, and a small handful of very minor ones, some of which evcen are not confirmed to be bugs appearing on all systems.

What also is a big difference is the customer service that Sonalysts and eSim are doing, and which made me turning away from Sonalysts, finally. SA is a defense contractor, and is the far bigger company of the two. eSim also is a defense contractor, although not on the scale like SA and in a different understanding, and it is much smaller. Nevertheless, although not having released a game, it's technical support, judged by the fast patching of SB1, and their published plans for supporting SBP, is far superior to SA - who is not able to have it's baby gotten into shape even after over one year. It also failed to do a thorough job with patching SC, which also was not substantially patched before over one year had gone by, despite the presence of some real showstoppers. Although smaller, eSim has the willingness to take better care of it's community, not only in terms of forum presence (which rivales that of SA easily, at any time, since years), but in deeds. They even halted all military offers of more lucrative contracts just to get the job with SBP PE done. That is what I call dedication to customers.

There is not a single PM that I don't answer, a single e-mail that is not replied to... our Support Forums are active (even a year after the initial release) and we support our games a full 8 years after they've been released. The patches are not released in the desired frequency that Skybird would wish them to be... we're doing the best that we possibly can, Skybird! We are a business and we have to try and move forward with other projects that help fund our game developments.... we're not getting rich off of you, I can promise you that (well, you sold your copy of DW, so that's a moot point anyway).

I understand that you do not like the way the patching of SC/DW was handled, Skybird. Trust me, you made that ABUNDANTLY clear... But to say that I don't support our customers is just totally untrue and disrespectful to me personally. It's 11:00pm EST and I'm on Subsim reading posts and trying to support our customers... I don't know many developers that do that.

No slight whatsoever to eSim, I'm sure they are a wonderful developer and care very much about their customers as well. But for some time now (since his SC petition in 2002) Skybird has "had it out for us" and I think Tanksim.com forumers should hear both sides of the story.

Originally Posted by 3Star

With all due respect to DW, which I have, the two are not comparable. One is a mass-market game which relies heavily on real-world techniques, (and, frankly, is flawed/buggy), the other is a sim which approximates about as close as possible the individual mechanics of the different types of vehicles to a level of fidelity and reliability that is suitable for the primary customer's military use. Basically, when the US or any other navy in the world starts to use DW as an officially sanctioned training tool, get back to me. SBP is being used to keep soldiers alive. That's how good it is.

Well, I'm getting back to you.... It's been happening for about the last 8 years actually (for all of our games).

DW specifically is being used in a $11 million trainer for the USN and is slated to be utilized as the foundation for a contract of equal size shortly thereafter. The Navy is very pleased with it (from what we hear) and the modifications made to it produce a very beneficial visulaization & analysis tool as well as a team-based trainer (using multi-station in MP) that has yet to be matched in the Naval non-commerical space.

Originally Posted by 3Star

My experience to DW is exactly the opposite of what a lot of people will find for SB: I bought DW expecting a high-fidelity simulator, instead, I found a relatively shallow game. Esim are worried that people will be looking for a game, and instead get a high-fi sim.

Well, that's definitely the first time I've heard that.

Of course, I totally respect your opinion and look forward to the opportunity of giving SB the time and study that it deserves. From hearing your enthusiasm for it and reading Skybird's preview of it, I'm very excited to dive in... (well, when Sonalysts agrees to let me "expense it" that is... For research, of course )

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Well, that's definitely the first time I've heard that.

I'd like to add something else.

Some time ago I've said that SBP was like DW, but better.

I WAS MASSACRATED FOR THAT (exaggerating), and had to go philosophical, ending with a bizzare phrase, something like: SBP is like DW's whatever but better on whatever to appease the lions, I also had to praise the qualities of DW. You know, if I can see the qualities of SBP, I don't know why anyone thought I would be blind towards DW, I'm a gamer, I look at entertaining games to play, I'm not, wasn't and never would be on some sort of Anti-DW Jihad. I don't need that, I don't need others praising the game I play to feel good about it and forgive its flaws or short-comings. I'm gratefull for that anyway, because my initial phrase was generic and relative, and I don't like generic, relative junk, I leave that for the politically correct, globalitarian/internationalist crowd, that's something very good in the German language, there are so many words structured to mean exactly what you want to say, that you can't go wrong, or you can just pile two words together and might get away with it. However, my initial phrase was a joke, it should've been taken lightly. It seems the European football games contaminated the minds of our fellow Europeans, any chant must be an insult, like in the Stadiums.

Well, this isn't a soccer stadium, and I wasn't chanting anything criminal. But if I don't have the right to prefer SBP over DW, that's fine, I'll play whatever you guys want, I'll play ONLY what you guys want, if I can't follow my taste, follow what I'm looking for at a moment (for my taste in games vary, I don't play the same game for months on end, only to come back to it later on), I won't, I'll play only what you guys recommend. I'll give up my critical sense, I'll give up my false sense of free will and submit to your guidance. Allah Ackbar! I'm ready to be converted, I no longer have an opinion, or a will, or think for myself, I leave it all in the hands of subsimmers.

Neal Ackbar! After all, he's the creator.

Now I'll just sit here and watch the silence that follows Jamie's message, proving all that disliked my preference for SBP over DW were a hypocritical bunch.

Come out, DW-fanatics, wherever you are, and attack 3star and Skybird, unleash your shadowy tentacles against them, make no prisioners, I'm feeling lonely at my SBP-preference limbo. Make me feel guilty of even buying this sim, and I promise I'll play DW 24/7 for the rest of my life.

[Skybird]

Hi Jamie,

The locked threads you refer to were the result of a confrontation going off the rails with one guy who currently is banned by Neal, but meanwhile has excused and will be allowed to come back. The real rule-hurting postings by him had not been locked, but meanwhile deleted. And no, I do not lock threads being critical on something that I do or say, neither yours, nor those of that guy, as you seem to imply in your opening remark. It is (and was) about behavior, and forum rules only.

I did not say that Sonalyst does not support it's products. What I expressed in several topics during the SC era, and with regard to DW as well, and in the quote you gave, is that patching obvious bugs that imo really hit gameplay in anything but minor ways, cannot be compensated by beeing present in the forums. You are right, you guys do spend a lot of time in the forums, and I am certainly aware of that. However, like it was with SC back then, the patches come at an incredibly low pace - and the way a publisher adresses and repairs broken things is the deciding criterion for me in assessing his suppoort policy, not his forum presence alone. 1.08 for SC was the first patch that gave me a stable SC - but after over one year helping myself with workarounds, and cursing over unwanted details that were affecting gameplay, at that time SC already was close to dead for me, one year simply was too long to get it right. Since then I only played it occasionally, rarely. With DW it is the same long time now, my personal interest is the subs, and very much exclusively so. You remember my short visit in the DW forum some weeks ago, after the new patch came out - and I descriobed the ridiculous, completely idiotic steering behavior of the subs that is present with 1.03. Again, it is over one year, and still such showstoppers present. Of course I can help myself by going to 25 knots when wanting to dive, with an enemy close by that just is waiting for me too get noisy - but makes it sense to do so? Of course I can stick to a private rule: never climb when making a turn, else you turn faster than a Ferrari - but is this "simulation-like"? I mean it is so pretty obvious that these things are broken. The flaws that others reported , i even have not adressed. I know that Luftwolf and Amizaur have come up with workarounds and adjustements, and I have red all their readmes, but there are some severely broken things they cannot heal by themselves - and Sonalysts don't do it since over a year now. Forum presence is nice and well but it does not help to change that fact.

When I say I consider eSim's support to be better, it is because they are smaller than you and have far smaller ressources, have contracts with military customers as well - and put them on ice to concentrate on SBP. Like you they do not make a living by making this release to the public (didn't you say last summer that for some time you havd stopped working on a patch because military customers were your prioroity for some weeks or months? I remember vaguely there was something like this), so one would expect eSm needs to take even more time to patch it'S baby. This is not the case, even when considering that their situation has changed since the release of SB1.

Anyway, Jamie, I did not mean any personal aggression when doing that comparison between eSim and Sonalysts. I know about your forum presence, and compared to most others it is very high. Same is true for esim. But your patching policy is not en par with the potential of your sim and your forum policy. Almost one year ago, after the release, when i still had not bought, I was locked in a longer debate in the DW forum, where I said that by feedback from gamers I know that Sonalyst is being remembered by quite some people outside the subsim-community, for taking too long time for it's patchings, and that a change of this would maybe decide the question of how successful DW will be among players outside this strict community (like I myself also waited until late summer before I bought it, and then second-hand only, from a freind'S brother: who also was pissed off by the needed repairs not being done). I received angry replies, and plenty of them, although I meant it constructive. since then, my impression that the DW forum only welcomes not really critical postings - these will receive a laughter at ebst, a bashing at worst - has not grown any weaker: I have given up scanning the SH3 forum, but I am still scanning the Dw forum regularly. It'S just that I have lost the interest to post (and I am out of touch with many things being discussed anyway). There are also several people on this board who were playing SC, but refused to join DW - due to the technical shape it is in. They rarely, if ever, post in the DW-section now.

Today when I ask around amongst people that I sometimes met, most often see via Internet, DW seem to be known to many people outside this community, due to the press coverage and mouth-propaganda, but almost noone has bought it or has voiced an interest to do so. Not always but often I am told: "You know, it takes them too long." I can understand that members of this community here are having a greater willingness to forgive this or that, and to workaround, or accept broken details, and wait endlessly. That is because they are die-hard fans of the genre of naval simulations and subsims. But when I get asked by someone how the subs are in DW, and I tell them of the potential, but also of that steering behavior, and the many things that had been tweaked and worked around by the community, then I cannot be surprised if they wave me off.

I was angry after SC, that is what made me letting it down. After 1.03 DW I was not angry, but laughed, somewhat. For it exactlyfollows the way that I have feared, and nthat I have warned of. Maybe you see it differently, but your slow patching costs and have already costed you potential customers, and not just a few of them, and it will cost you more once the boxed version hits the European market. It would have been better policy, imo, to patch it thoroughly, have it all included in the boxed version and then come up with a "Gold edition" like it was with SB Gold. that one made their sale rates raising very high, and no more patch was needed (the definite argument for quite some people, and for me as well). But if 1.03 represents what is included in the box, I remain sceptical and not really interested. I could live with non-realistic sensor-values, since I do not know the real thing anyway, and with mods that take a long while, and with minor things, but not with subs behaving like I have seen with 1.03, sorry. That is a core issue, not just a minor one.

This was and still is criticism of mine that is meant constructively, althoiugh a lot of people will disagree with me and will be angry becasue I said something abd about theirbaby of choice. That'S why I will not engage in an ongoing discussion about this stuff. I have said what I have to say oin it, and repeatedly so, no need for me to repeat it over and over again. People in the DW forum have their thing and say they are happy, and Sonalysts maybe tells us that it is satisfied with the way sales are going, well my congratulations to both, it is no problem for me. i think both situations could be far better, but it must not be my concern. I am neither a pro-DW-lobbyist, nor am I on an anti-DW-crusade. when I got asked privately what DW is and what I think, I gave both my positive and negative thoughts and refreed to this forum board and left it to the other to form his decision pro or contra buying.

BTW, I just met Boomer yesterday in the SB-forum at eSim. He's alive and well and joined up there after having stumbled over the interview and review.

I will look at the subs again if there comes out a new patch anytime - which probably will not be too soon again, am I right? I am busy with SB anyway.

Snorkels in both sims!

Sky

[OneShot]

Well, I think I put my 2 cents in, even if I might be considered one of the Die-hard DW fans ...

First of all, I have no clue whatsoever about SBP except seing the videos and reading part of the review, while this game looks certainly interesting I probably won't play a minute of it, because paying 125 bucks to try it, is not my thing. But hey, maybe a Demo sees the light of day somewhen and gets me interested for real. So based on this I won't even start on comparing DW to SBP, neither can I compare the doings of the two responsible Developers. With that being said ...

The patching of Dangerous Waters may seem a bit ... prolonged. But then you might consider the scope and inner complexitiy of the game. I'm now part of the BETA crowd (c'mon Jamie, I finally made the credits so I can tell) since before the release of the SF version, ie 1.02 and could watch from close by how the fixing of one problem introduces another, sometimes bigger problem. Tracking down the reason for that and fixing it is time consuming which in turn costs money. And as Jamie pointed out often enough, money for DW as a game is sparse.

On the issue of subs having real problems in DW even with 1.03 ... well maybe I'm to blind to notice but yesterday I played a MP game in a Seawolf for bit over 2 hours, with a lot of depth and speed changing and aside from the fact that the sub goes up at nearly 10kts when I ordered 5kts (with the sound signature of 5kts) I could not notice any big problems. Turns were Ok, no spirals of death, hell even my TA lived through it. So I didn't find any showstoppers last night ... I had some fun sinking two Akulas before getting hit by -27s from the last Kilo Imp due to my being stupid.

Yep, there are some things in DW which would make it more "real" if they would actually be realised, like one of my pet peeves, the radar detection of masts, but well ... life goes on. It's not perfect so the players have to adjust by using certain rules or other tactics or whatnot to make it work ... and work it does. I for one have a lot of fun playing - unless I get shot down or end up in the drink because of my own stupidity.

Without wanting to kick a discussion loose about the goods and the bads of DW (or SBP for that matter) I want to point out, if you just played it for a short time you should not be so quick with ultimative statements. Thats why I refrained from making any statements about SBP (or some other game I have never played much) because those would not be really "educated".

Cheers
OS

P.S. : As far as Customer Support goes, I think SCS is second to none (at least the companies I played games from). But that's my personal opinion and as the saying goes "opinions are like a**holes ... everybody got one"

[Skybird]

Well, the problems of Sonalysts regarding ressources for patching efforts are not reserved to them - others face the same problems, even at higher degrees, sometimes.

With regard to the complexity, I would not agree on stating that SBP is the less complex software code. You have to calculate viewing distances of up to 5 km in a truly 3dimensional environment modulated with a complex terrain surface and complex obstacle structures affecting line of sights, you have a VERY complex ballistics and armour model, and the combination of a script-based and a micromanaging AI. It is something different than the sonar model and sensor models in DW, but as long as the two lead programmers do not compare their stuff I would be careful in saying this or that sim is the more complex one.

I have dealt with DW quite a bit during last year, after I got it, and tested the subs very much (and tried the other platforms as well), which was not so difficult to get into, since the basic handling layout I already knew from SC. I do not claim to have become an expert for DW. The sparkles, however, did not lit a fire. Agreed, I did not spend the same ammount of time with 103 like with default DW, or with SC (that realy consumed a good ammount of my time), but when I get greeted with some issues as I described in a thread some weeks ago, even on game start, and repeated play shows the same symptoms that I described in that thread, then this certainly is something that turns me off very early after that long wait.

-----

In the thread Jamie was quoting from, something else was stated as well, and I quote to limit the danger that we get a hostile rivalry between the submarine- and tank-forum on this board:

Okay, I expected that a comparison between SC/DW and SBP would come up on this board sooner or later, and I said what I have to say, and others did that, too. But we do not want a forum war here about people's preferences for this or that sim of their choice. So I would like to see this comparison beeing left behind now.

From the debates in DW-forum we know that things easily could get hot, so please everybody: do not let this happen here. Since tanksim.com and subsim.com are partner sites, both DW and SBP forums will live under the same roof in this place. Let it be a peaceful coexistence, please.

For that reason I would like to no longer participate in this dicussion myself anymore, and do not post my criticism in the DW-section anymore, since months. So, everyone: feel free to keep on discussing this topic as long as it does not turn too hot, but please understand that I stay away from it, for the most.

[Jamie]

From the debates in DW-forum we know that things easily could get hot, so please everybody: do not let this happen here. Since tanksim.com and subsim.com are partner sites, both DW and SBP forums will live under the same roof in this place. Let it be a peaceful coexistence, please.

For that reason I would like to no longer participate in this dicussion myself anymore, and do not post my criticism in the DW-section anymore, since months. So, everyone: feel free to keep on discussing this topic as long as it does not turn too hot, but please understand that I stay away from it, for the most.

Skybird,

My only reason for posting this thread was entirely based upon my "perception" of what you considered to be a lackluster support of our products. Any of your posts in re: to the various bugs/defects in DW have never been questioned by me. You have always been very specific and detailed about your displeasures with the product and that is your right to do so - you (and others) paid very good money for your copy of DW.

However, when you question (what I consider to be) my work ethic and my desire to support our customer base (and my desire for the very best for Dangerous Waters and the DW community) I take it a little personally.

I've sacrificed a tremendous amount of my own "personal time" (as have the devs at eSim, I am sure) for the sake of a project that I take great pride in, and sometimes I feel as though you lose sight of that. Many game PC simulation developers are under tremendous pressure to keep costs down and to maintain a sensible budget for what has been a rapidly diminishing rate of return on their investment (SH3 is the exception, not the rule).

So if it takes many months between patches, maybe you should consider the fact that it is because the developers are doing it on their own time and for the benefit of their existing customers (which includes those who constantly critique them). And these same customers are the often those who take for granted the developer's efforts and lose sight of the financial situation that PC simulations currently reside.

With that, I wish eSim the very best of luck with their latest venture and I hope that they succeed well beyond their goals. If anyone understands the challenges that lie before them it is me, and I hope that they are able to overcome them with their sanity intact. :P

Very best,

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by TteFAboB

Now I'll just sit here and watch the silence that follows Jamie's message, proving all that disliked my preference for SBP over DW were a hypocritical bunch.

No, actually it just entices me to try out SBP more than ever.

If you feel so strongly about its merits than it must be a very compelling simulation, indeed. I look forward to trying it out!

[JamesT73J]

Skybird,

Enjoy your break from Subsim?

I know I did.

Oh, And:
"If the cost is worth the prodcut you cannot judge, quality-wise. Why the cost is what it is i told you in the other thread oin page one, and it is crystalclear logic for every business man. You only can say that the sim's content and focus is not worth it for YOU. Okay, stay away, the SB community can happily live without you. About it's strengths and weaknesses you know nothing by experience, at best you could have red about it - some note here, some article there... But you do not know it. And that is the reason why what you claim to be "clear to see" is not clear at all. you claim to have an argument, but you have none. "

Please practice what you preach. I gave up a long time ago believing you were remotely objective in your criticism of Sub Command and Dangerous Waters.

Cheers


James

[OneShot]

Just a quick after thought, once I read the response from Skybird ...

In no way I said that SBP is less complex then DW, and I don't think so. If my statements were seen this way, then lets clarify a bit. Hats off to every developer who can fix "bugs" ASAP, great thing. But while both programs (SBP and DW) are simulations and complex ones at that, their code, algorithms and what not are certainly different. Unless one knows both (that is not the game, but the workings behind the nice graphics on the pc) indepth, it is certainly not very wise (I actually would say .. uneducated) to compare the effort needed to fix the problems with one or the other.

Aside from that, I think Jamie offered a good explanation on his second post ...

Cheers
OS

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by OneShot

Just a quick after thought, once I read the response from Skybird ...

In no way I said that SBP is less complex then DW, and I don't think so. If my statements were seen this way, then lets clarify a bit. Hats off to every developer who can fix "bugs" ASAP, great thing. But while both programs (SBP and DW) are simulations and complex ones at that, their code, algorithms and what not are certainly different. Unless one knows both (that is not the game, but the workings behind the nice graphics on the pc) indepth, it is certainly not very wise (I actually would say .. uneducated) to compare the effort needed to fix the problems with one or the other.

Aside from that, I think Jamie offered a good explanation on his second post ...

Cheers
OS

He isn't describing a situation that is much different from several other small labels, or with eSim in special. They too work with limited ressources (personell, time, money), and small, if any, financial perspectives coming from patching alone. I understand what Jamie says, but I do not accept it as a unique excuse in the case of Sonalysts: it is not unique. Others are in the same situation - but nevertheless perform more convincing, imo, and show up with an answer to a limited, but justified public demand: getting major issues fixed within a reasonable timeframe.

[Skybird]

Jamie,

I have not gone into working ethics, nor have I said your company does not support DW. But I, personally, am not satisfied with your customer support when it comes to a suppoort not centred on being engaged with the community, but repairing things. your presence and many postings cannot compensate for the latter. For over a year and two or three patches the current state with regard to the subs is simply not enough. I have commented on that maneuvering issue in a DW-thread some weeks ago, after 1.03 came out. I see no way for you how you can sell me that as a minor thing. And I was able to see that behavior repeatedly.

I also said that it appears to me that many people outside the DW forum, and outside the subsim.community: usual, "normal" gamers that are potentially interested, are kept away by remembering all by themselves that it took you a very long while to come along with SC, and that tjhis probably does not help you to win back these potential customers that the patching of DW takes even longer.

Do not make this something personal, please. I haven'T attacked neither you personally, nor your idealism. Some people think the patching so far is good enough. I compare it to other patches for other sims there have been, and come to a different opinion. So it goes.



JamesT73J,

what are you talking of, "enjoy my brake from subsim?", and that you did? And concerning the quote, I have not talked on the (higher, btw.) price of DW. And the experiences I had with DW 1.03 are heavily bugged from the first maneuver on, go back, find that thread by my, posted after 1.03, and then tell me that it is no obvious thing. yes I can live with it if not wanting to change depth, trying to hide from an enemy, or combine a turn with a climb or dive. Maybe you consider such severe limits to your freedom of action as irrelevant. I don 'T agree - for me they are showstoppers. As if I could turn the turret in a tank only to one side, and to the other only when I turn the hull as well, making it vulnerabel that way. Or a rally sim with only 20% of wheel movement to one side.

You like DW more than I do. Okay, you have made yourself clear in that. No problem for me. But I never understood why guys like you must make it a personal question if another guy does not share their taste and assessement. And that is basically all your reply is about.

Now, you go and play DW, for whatever your reasons are, and I do something different, for I don't share your view. Is that okay for you now.


Interesting: I made it clear time and again, back at SC, and with DW, that I meant no personal fights and wanted my pointing at broken things understood as constructive criticism, so that these issues receive attention and will be fixed. And time and again I receive slappings from this or that guy accusing me for not being honest or objective. That's exactly what I meant when saying that the DW forum seem to dislike anyone not agreeing on that it is a fanstastic sim. I wonder if that is the reason why quite some names of people who initially were interested in DW last year do not show up there anymore. but however - it is not really my interest anymore, and I find this debate here even more discouraging. So - you go your ways, and I'll go mine, and we better keep it seperate.

And after having expressed before my wish to be left out personally, this is now really the final word from me in this discussion.

Maybe I shut have cut that thread where the first comparison between SBT and DW was voiced by someone and I then even added my opinion to that. But by the rules of the forum, it is not justified.

[Jamie]

... but however - it is not really my interest anymore, and I find this debate here even more discouraging. So - you go your ways, and I'll go mine, and we better keep it seperate.

I think that is a wise course of action...

[smithcorp]

This is a strange thread. People arguing about support and quality between two developers whose products are superior to almost all of the other stuff that's out there, in terms of their vision, detail and execution; and whose support of their respective products also stands head and shoulders above almost all other game and sim makers out there!

[mbv]

Indeed, I was just thinking the same after having read this whole sorry travesty of a thread

[kaptkirkU4467]

Looks like we have a tiff going on...and it needs to be done via email and not here.
Were about tanks and stuff..and should keep personal stuff just that..personal.