Torpedoes and false targets

[Reemul-ita]

Hi all,

before all sorry if this is an abused question but for me, a totally newbie in Cold Waters, is a problem.

I've ever thought that noisemakers works as false targets. Torpedo aim you, you use noisemakers and after some "normal" maneuvers you have life saved.

In Cold Waters every time i'm locked i'm dead. I've to dance for all ocean like an headless chicken, running up and down, avoiding some torpedoes but i don't have a real possibility to return invisible to radar and leave. best weapon for a submarine is silence and invisibility. I think isn't real a submarine that run like a crazy one at 30-35 knots...

So, sorry for my english isn't my native language, i would know if Cold Waters is right, and dance around is a normally strategy, or if Cold Waters is wrong, so i need a realistic mod that add a realistic torpedoes behaviour.

Thanks all for patience!

Have fun

[Aktungbby]

Reemul-ita!on the surface after a decade's silent run! In English, 'noisemakers ' called 'decoys' such as the U-boat BOLD devices of WWII. Both a noun and a verb: When launched, a depth charging escort could thus be 'decoyed' by the deceptive pillenwerfer. Tom Hanks latest movie, Greyhounds features the use of one which causes his escort vessel to waste depthcharges...

[Reemul-ita]

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Reemul-ita!on the surface after a decade's silent run! In English, 'noisemakers ' called 'decoys' such as the U-boat BOLD devices of WWII. Both a noun and a verb: When launched, a depth charging escort could thus be 'decoyed' by the deceptive pillenwerfer. Tom Hanks latest movie, Greyhounds features the use of one which causes his escort vessel to waste depthcharges...

Oh my... how could u remember me? I don't remember when last time i visit this forum. However it was during Silent Hunter 3 but don' remember when..

So i'm in error. Submarine war isn't a silent war? Why noone make a guide how do a submarine assault?
On youtube i see only people that turn left and right or up and down. Noone shut down engines and become invisible...
I'm in error????

[FPSchazly]

Evading torpedoes is part of the fun of Cold Waters. It's a spiritual successor to the old Microprose Red Storm Rising and Tom Clancy SSN if you know those. It sounds like you might interested in a game like Dangerous Waters, which I play a lot of and have videos about if you're interested.

[Reemul-ita]

Thanks all for advices but Dangerous Waters won't start. I tried many times with many tweaks, like Dxwnd, but nothing.
SO i have to play with Cold Waters.

I've to be honest: i really like Cold Waters, only thing that i can't accept is the submarine dance. So, please, can you direct me to a mod that change torpedoes behaviour? Thanks

[ETR3(SS)]

So what we have here is the long history of weapon and counter-weapon. Man invents the club, another man invents armor. In this case man created homing torpedoes and another created the countermeasure to spoof those torpedoes. But then, someone got the idea to counter the countermeasure by creating what's known as countermeasure homing. When the torpedo gets to the countermeasure it will turn away and go around it, then continue looking for the true target. The only way to avoid the torpedo was to remain out of it's sensor cone. But, that too, was also countered by wire guidance allowing the firing ship to steer the weapon back towards the intended target.


So the behavior you're seeing in game is accurate to real life.

[Reemul-ita]

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

So what we have here is the long history of weapon and counter-weapon. Man invents the club, another man invents armor. In this case man created homing torpedoes and another created the countermeasure to spoof those torpedoes. But then, someone got the idea to counter the countermeasure by creating what's known as countermeasure homing. When the torpedo gets to the countermeasure it will turn away and go around it, then continue looking for the true target. The only way to avoid the torpedo was to remain out of it's sensor cone. But, that too, was also countered by wire guidance allowing the firing ship to steer the weapon back towards the intended target.


So the behavior you're seeing in game is accurate to real life.

Well, well. Thanks a lot for your analysis, this sounds really awesome. SO we have a real behaviour of torpedoes but there is a thing that i don't understand and try to explain.

I see enemies, take contact bla bla bla then fire a torpedo, now begin the hunt. I shot enemies, they shot me, i avoid torpedoes and survive for a while. At a certain moment i should have possibility to become invisible, shut off engines, go to 10.000 meters, something. After first shot enemies knows everytime where i am.

SO now: or i'm wrong about submarine war or something is wrong in this game. How could can i become invisible and restart hunt?

[ETR3(SS)]

Originally Posted by Reemul-ita

Well, well. Thanks a lot for your analysis, this sounds really awesome. SO we have a real behaviour of torpedoes but there is a thing that i don't understand and try to explain.

I see enemies, take contact bla bla bla then fire a torpedo, now begin the hunt. I shot enemies, they shot me, i avoid torpedoes and survive for a while. At a certain moment i should have possibility to become invisible, shut off engines, go to 10.000 meters, something. After first shot enemies knows everytime where i am.

SO now: or i'm wrong about submarine war or something is wrong in this game. How could can i become invisible and restart hunt?

You've got the general idea, but something to consider is that torpedo launch makes noise and so does the torpedo. All they have to do is follow the bearing of your torpedo back to find where it came from. So this is the hardest part of the game, breaking contact with the enemy. First you have to know what the enemy units are in order to facilitate a plan to break off. If there are any air assets looking for you this will complicate things greatly, more so if they have your position. You can sink the surface escorts and the subs to break contact with them, but you can't kill the air assets. Best to do is dive below the layer (if there is one), use a MOSS (if you have one), and then sprint and drift. If it's helicopters after you, rig for ultra quiet while their dipping sonar is in the water. When they move that's when you move, ahead flank and a course change. Keep them guessing as to where you will be the next time they dip their sonar. As for the MPA's, they will drop sonobuoys. Same applies though, keep changing course and speed so they can't get an accurate solution on you. They have a limited amount of active sonobuoys so the ones they drop will be passive most of the time. Also try not to let them triangulate your position off of multiple sonobuoys. You can practice in the quick mission editor with a whale and whatever air assets you want.

[Wien1938]

Here's what I've found - the game makes a lot more sense when you pay attention to the sensor numbers. If your opponent gets a passive or active sensor number above 0, he's got an idea of where you are but he won't have you cold until it hits 10 or more.
When you launch a torpedo or a moss, you temporarily give your opponent a +20 advantage on his passive sensor scores (not the active, note!). So, what you want to do is wait until your opponent is at -20 or more on his passive scores and shoot then.
After you shoot, direct the torpedo away from your ship for at least 3KYD to give yourself some "deflection" and start slowly heading away from the target and your own torp.
At 3KYD (ish) your opponent WILL detect an incoming torpedo, so distance is an important balancing act between the ability to run the target down and his ability to detect your launch and/or the torpedo approach. Bear in mind that your opponent will launch counterattacking torpedoes on the approach vector of your weapon, so try not to be on that same vector.
Launch diagram (hopefully):
(You)----->
sea-sea-sea\
sea-sea-sea-\
sea-sea-sea /
(Target)<--

When caught by a torpedo, the best course of action is run away at full speed and use "knuckles" in the water to throw the torpedo off your scent and send it back into a search pattern. This buys you precious seconds to open the range and (works best with short-legged aerial homing torps) either get the little sod to run out of fuel and self-destruct or work yourself out of its sensor cone.
Once you watch its track turn into a circle, check the range to the other side of that circle. If the range is equal to, or, a little more than the known sensor range of the torpedo, you have a chance (pressing your narrow stern aspect) to slip out of the range. If the torpedo turns back into its circle, you've escaped. If it sniffs your trail and comes after you, use high-speed knuckles in the water and start the evasion process again.
Sometimes, you can't shake the torpedo, either because it is too fast, too close or sometimes the sensor is too good to be fooled. In that case, you're in for the fight of your life!
What I found (having read a bit on here and on Steam) to be most effective is to let the torp get to 500 yards distance behind you, then REVERSE course into the torpedo's path AND climb or dive at least 300-400 feet from your current depth. It's alarming but the advice is correct here - you can outmanoeuvre a torpedo in three dimensions.
Once the torpedo passes over or under your boat, turn BACK into its path, then reverse again towards the torpedo. This way, the torpedo cannot find you for another circle and gives you time to launch a noisemaker, break away for knuckling distance or shoot a MOSS on a course away from you but with a long angle to catch the little bugger's attention and give you time to go shallow or deep and stay out of its sensor cone. [EDIT: A tactic that I've used is to get above or below of the torpedo and circle under/over it about 400ft difference and wait for the blasted thing to self-destruct!]
If you have a passive torp that you can't fool, you're going to have to dance for a long time! [EDIT: This appears to be either when someone is wire-guiding a torpedo onto you OR where the game has bugged and a wire-guided torpedo has had its wire cut but the game hasn't correctly disabled the wire-link and the AI hunts you with a zombie sonar!]

Lastly, if in the far north, you can (I've done it!) use the ice to physically block a torpedo - they're not that smart!

[Exocet25fr]

Wien1938, Thanks a lot for your very instructive explanations