The Creation vs Evolution debate thread... - Page 12

August · 12-11-09, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

HEY!! I spent eight pretty good years in Omaha in the military. Not a bad place at all. Pbpbpbpbpb

My old Team Sergeant lived in Cheyenne and he told me that one.

Iceman · 12-12-09, 03:13 PM

Vanity of vanites all is vanity...nothing new under the sun.

Nothing new from creationists because there is no need for us to try to "Sell" God as do the evolutionists try to sell science...science is mans attempt to cast light into the darkness.

Faith is a personal matter for the individual...the theory of Evolution...well good luck with that....to me you are the encapsulation of "Doubting Thomas"...you will not, absolutly not, believe unless you see it, touch it, taste it...yet you are living by faith already....just your faith holds no particuliar hope of any kind of any real future. Your faith tells you, your born,you die, and and that's the finite end.

Most intrepretations of the bible are so clinical and sanitary that most cannot not get to the deeper understanding of what is spoken....it is very clear to one who can hear.

It speaks of other creatures and other domains not bound at all by time or death....Death is the door we will all pass thru soon and that is where in the back of the evolutionists mind he is really scared. Some may think they will be able to just hedge there bets and believe at the final moment and God will welcome you in to the Kingdom at the last moment...it does not work that way is all....all the "Old" examples are there....this one is the example of Noah.....when the rain begins to fall ,and you ain't in the boat, it's already too late.

A true believer does not get excited over these types of conversations at all to the contrary again...most of you are the perfect example of the following passages...a true believer lives by this...we pray for all of you. Passage 7:6 I say to the Christians here to read and understand and do not be disheartned but learn this parable.

Matthew 7
King James Bible

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Peace and Merry CHRISTmas all you heathens... lol jk

12-12-09, 03:28 PM

You have no problem believing all that, but you don't buy the 40 virgins thing?!

"Though shall not kill", unless Uncle Sam says so.
(Someone mentioned the word hypocrit.)

GLÆDELIG JUL OG GODT NYTÅR.
(Enjoy your holidays).

Skybird · 12-12-09, 03:39 PM

Listening to sermons makes hungry.

12-12-09, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Listening to sermons makes hungry.

Don't worry Kitty, the Tooth Fairy is here.

Morts · 12-12-09, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Your faith tells you, your born,you die, and and that's the finite end.

im sorry, but i dont have faith

12-12-09, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morts

im sorry, but i dont have faith

Once I knew a girl named Faith, but I never had her.

August · 12-12-09, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snestorm

Though shall not kill"

Actually it should read "Thou shalt not murder", a distinction some folks don't understand.

12-12-09, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Actually it should read "Thou shalt not murder", a distinction some folks don't understand.

Should it?
Based on which version of the bible?
Since you get lots of cretinists that with their fundamentalist literal interpretations also insist that the KJV is the only real version are you trying to say that the one true version is written wrong?

Quote:

Nothing new from creationists because there is no need for us to try to "Sell" God

So you don't believe in the teachings of the bible then Iceman. Thats really funny from someone who calls themselves a christian and believes in creationism because of a bible story.
Then again its par for the course from those that shout about their faith.
Though what is even funnier is you make that claim about not selling God and mention doubters...can you complete the lines that follow this....."Then the eleuen disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountaine where Iesus had appointed them."?
Have a clue, it mentions doubt and involves selling God around the world.

Stealth Hunter · 12-12-09, 11:06 PM

I never really have understood that concept. I mean, if the Bible is the inherent word of a supreme being, there should only be one version of it and one interpretation of it. Yet each sect of Christianity is different in terms of beliefs and practices (the Baptists from the Lutherans, the Methodists from the Catholics, the Quakers from the Evangelicals, etc.) and there are more than enough different versions of the Bible, mostly in terms of translations, but even so you'd expect them to be the same- if it is indeed the word of god, I mean. I don't believe it is. This fact only strengthens my resolve. Plus the fact that a Christian god who is omnipotent and omniscient as the Bible implies is logically contradictory and therefore cannot exist in the same sense that you can't have a circular square or iron gold or a bed made of sleep doesn't do too much to boost my belief; it kind of kills it actually.

Stealth Hunter · 12-12-09, 11:15 PM

Transcription factors are and always will be an important part of molecular biology. By extension medical research for the foreseeable future. For the non-biologists among you, a transcription factor is basically a switch. It turns on a specific gene or set of genes in response to a specific stimulus. Hypoxia Inducible Factor, or HIF, as its name suggests, responds to a hypoxic environment and goes on to turn on, literally, hundreds of genes which induce changes in angiogeneisis, glycolysis, the Krebs Cycle, and oxidative phosphorylation, as well as reducing the metabolic load of the cell in question.

The transcription factor needs to know what gene to turn on, and where in the genome it's located. That's why in the 5' untranslated region of a gene which is to be activated (5'UTR) there is a specific site known as the transcription factor binding site, or consensus site. These sites are quite specific to the transcription factor in question, and induce transcription (and ultimately the translation) of the gene downstream of the consensus site.

If we know what genes are activated, how they're activated, and how specific transcription factors activate specific genes in a specific order, we can control the system and the potential for treatment of a host of diseases and injuries is enormous. For example, one of HIF's major activities is the growing of new blood vessels and capillary beds. In the heart, it remodels the myocardium and enhances cardiac function. If we can control what HIF does, we can potentially use the body's own mechanisms to repair the damage from a myocardial infarction with no ill-effects whatsoever.

Consensus sites tend to be short. Very short. On top of that, the binding factor doesn't bind to a unique site, but to a set of closely-related sites. HIF, to use my example above, has two known sites that it can bind with, both of which are 5 basepairs long.

Well, the problem with a short sequence is that it's not unique. A specific 25 basepair sequence is one that you'd only expect to show up once anywhere in the human genome. By comparison, if we have two possible sites, each of which has 5 basepairs, it shows up everywhere. Literally. To give you some perspective on what I mean by "everywhere," if you take our four bases, a, c, g and t, and construct a completely random strand of 2500 basepairs, along with its reverse complement, you'd expect one of our consensus sites to show up completely at random, at least once, on either the forward or reverse strands of that double-stranded DNA sequence. In the human genome, that means that you'd expect to see it over a million times just by pure chance.

The human genome only has about 30,000 genes, so obviously, all of those sites can't be real. But how can we look at a site and know that it's a real consensus site, or just one that shares its sequence?

Apparently, a couple of scientists, Loots and Ovcharenko developed a program called rVista in 2004. In the intervening four years, it has become the way in which one differentiates a "real" consensus site from a "fake" one.

You start with the assumption that a number of different animals share a common ancestor. You look at the gene sequence of animals closely related to it on the evolutionary tree. If you're studying a mouse, you compare your sequence to that found in rats and rabbits. If you're studying a human, you compare your sequence to Chimpanzees and Orangoutans. The program uses two criteria to filter the "fake" sequences from the "real" ones. 1) functional sequences will be conserved by evolution. 2) functional sequences will be more accurately conserved between closely related species than between distantly-related ones. From this, it aligns the sequences and determines whether these short, non-coding consensus sites are significant.

It works. It has a lower than 4% false-positive rate. It would only work if evolution were true, because the program is designed to analyze sequences under an evolutionary framework. If evolution is false, then the program would be unable to produce any valid data whatsoever.

The process by which rVista was developed and desiged can be found in:

G. Loots and I. Ovcharenko, rVista 2.0: evolutionary analysis of transcription factor binding sites. Nucleic Acids Research, 32, W217-W221 (2004)

It's somewhat technical, but as you can see, this algorithm is completely useless, unless evolution in general (common descent to be specific) is true.

Now my question: What would be the Creationist approach to the same problem?

onelifecrisis · 12-13-09, 03:10 AM

When I grow up I want to be just like Tribesman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Death is the door we will all pass thru soon and that is where in the back of the evolutionists mind he is really scared.

I think you've got your "creationists" (theists) and your "evolutionists" (atheists) the wrong way around. Without fear of death, who needs fairy stories? But whatever... if it gives you strength you go right on believing that death is really just a magical door to a happy place where everyone is super nice.

SteamWake · 12-13-09, 10:59 AM

Skybird · 12-13-09, 11:13 AM

August · 12-13-09, 02:58 PM

12-12-09, 03:39 PM	#169
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,456 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Listening to sermons makes hungry. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-12-09, 11:15 PM	#176
Stealth Hunter Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Y'ha-Nthlei Posts: 4,262 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I've got a question for the Creationists here... Transcription factors are and always will be an important part of molecular biology. By extension medical research for the foreseeable future. For the non-biologists among you, a transcription factor is basically a switch. It turns on a specific gene or set of genes in response to a specific stimulus. Hypoxia Inducible Factor, or HIF, as its name suggests, responds to a hypoxic environment and goes on to turn on, literally, hundreds of genes which induce changes in angiogeneisis, glycolysis, the Krebs Cycle, and oxidative phosphorylation, as well as reducing the metabolic load of the cell in question. The transcription factor needs to know what gene to turn on, and where in the genome it's located. That's why in the 5' untranslated region of a gene which is to be activated (5'UTR) there is a specific site known as the transcription factor binding site, or consensus site. These sites are quite specific to the transcription factor in question, and induce transcription (and ultimately the translation) of the gene downstream of the consensus site. If we know what genes are activated, how they're activated, and how specific transcription factors activate specific genes in a specific order, we can control the system and the potential for treatment of a host of diseases and injuries is enormous. For example, one of HIF's major activities is the growing of new blood vessels and capillary beds. In the heart, it remodels the myocardium and enhances cardiac function. If we can control what HIF does, we can potentially use the body's own mechanisms to repair the damage from a myocardial infarction with no ill-effects whatsoever. Consensus sites tend to be short. Very short. On top of that, the binding factor doesn't bind to a unique site, but to a set of closely-related sites. HIF, to use my example above, has two known sites that it can bind with, both of which are 5 basepairs long. Well, the problem with a short sequence is that it's not unique. A specific 25 basepair sequence is one that you'd only expect to show up once anywhere in the human genome. By comparison, if we have two possible sites, each of which has 5 basepairs, it shows up everywhere. Literally. To give you some perspective on what I mean by "everywhere," if you take our four bases, a, c, g and t, and construct a completely random strand of 2500 basepairs, along with its reverse complement, you'd expect one of our consensus sites to show up completely at random, at least once, on either the forward or reverse strands of that double-stranded DNA sequence. In the human genome, that means that you'd expect to see it over a million times just by pure chance. The human genome only has about 30,000 genes, so obviously, all of those sites can't be real. But how can we look at a site and know that it's a real consensus site, or just one that shares its sequence? Apparently, a couple of scientists, Loots and Ovcharenko developed a program called rVista in 2004. In the intervening four years, it has become the way in which one differentiates a "real" consensus site from a "fake" one. You start with the assumption that a number of different animals share a common ancestor. You look at the gene sequence of animals closely related to it on the evolutionary tree. If you're studying a mouse, you compare your sequence to that found in rats and rabbits. If you're studying a human, you compare your sequence to Chimpanzees and Orangoutans. The program uses two criteria to filter the "fake" sequences from the "real" ones. 1) functional sequences will be conserved by evolution. 2) functional sequences will be more accurately conserved between closely related species than between distantly-related ones. From this, it aligns the sequences and determines whether these short, non-coding consensus sites are significant. It works. It has a lower than 4% false-positive rate. It would only work if evolution were true, because the program is designed to analyze sequences under an evolutionary framework. If evolution is false, then the program would be unable to produce any valid data whatsoever. The process by which rVista was developed and desiged can be found in: G. Loots and I. Ovcharenko, rVista 2.0: evolutionary analysis of transcription factor binding sites. Nucleic Acids Research, 32, W217-W221 (2004) It's somewhat technical, but as you can see, this algorithm is completely useless, unless evolution in general (common descent to be specific) is true. Now my question: What would be the Creationist approach to the same problem?

12-13-09, 10:59 AM	#178
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	__________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

12-13-09, 11:13 AM	#179
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,456 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	__________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-13-09, 02:58 PM	#180
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 22,666 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	__________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.

12-12-09, 03:13 PM	#167
Iceman Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mesa AZ, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,253 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Vanity of vanites all is vanity...nothing new under the sun. Nothing new from creationists because there is no need for us to try to "Sell" God as do the evolutionists try to sell science...science is mans attempt to cast light into the darkness. Faith is a personal matter for the individual...the theory of Evolution...well good luck with that....to me you are the encapsulation of "Doubting Thomas"...you will not, absolutly not, believe unless you see it, touch it, taste it...yet you are living by faith already....just your faith holds no particuliar hope of any kind of any real future. Your faith tells you, your born,you die, and and that's the finite end. Most intrepretations of the bible are so clinical and sanitary that most cannot not get to the deeper understanding of what is spoken....it is very clear to one who can hear. It speaks of other creatures and other domains not bound at all by time or death....Death is the door we will all pass thru soon and that is where in the back of the evolutionists mind he is really scared. Some may think they will be able to just hedge there bets and believe at the final moment and God will welcome you in to the Kingdom at the last moment...it does not work that way is all....all the "Old" examples are there....this one is the example of Noah.....when the rain begins to fall ,and you ain't in the boat, it's already too late. A true believer does not get excited over these types of conversations at all to the contrary again...most of you are the perfect example of the following passages...a true believer lives by this...we pray for all of you. Passage 7:6 I say to the Christians here to read and understand and do not be disheartned but learn this parable. Matthew 7 King James Bible 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Peace and Merry CHRISTmas all you heathens... lol jk

12-12-09, 03:28 PM	#168
Snestorm Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	You have no problem believing all that, but you don't buy the 40 virgins thing?! "Though shall not kill", unless Uncle Sam says so. (Someone mentioned the word hypocrit.) GLÆDELIG JUL OG GODT NYTÅR. (Enjoy your holidays).

12-12-09, 11:06 PM	#175
Stealth Hunter Silent Hunter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Y'ha-Nthlei Posts: 4,262 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I never really have understood that concept. I mean, if the Bible is the inherent word of a supreme being, there should only be one version of it and one interpretation of it. Yet each sect of Christianity is different in terms of beliefs and practices (the Baptists from the Lutherans, the Methodists from the Catholics, the Quakers from the Evangelicals, etc.) and there are more than enough different versions of the Bible, mostly in terms of translations, but even so you'd expect them to be the same- if it is indeed the word of god, I mean. I don't believe it is. This fact only strengthens my resolve. Plus the fact that a Christian god who is omnipotent and omniscient as the Bible implies is logically contradictory and therefore cannot exist in the same sense that you can't have a circular square or iron gold or a bed made of sleep doesn't do too much to boost my belief; it kind of kills it actually.