Thank-you Poland!

[Rose]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

The closest I've been to Poland, was the Polish part of Chicago. That was an interesting experience (not in a good way )

Same here! :rotfl: (I used to live in Chi-town)

Thanks for those links, Polak, the sites are very informative.

An interesting side-note is that my grandfather volunteered for the Army intelligence service during the Korean War, and the recruits had to learn a "Communist" language (so they could listen in on radio transmissions) -- my grandfather chose Polish, so throughout the war, he listened to Polish radio transmissions. He told me the most exciting transmission he listened to was when two Polish fighter pilots were flying a patrol over Poland, and one of them said to the other, "I'm going West, I can't take it here any longer," and the other said something like, "no, you can't, what about your wife and kids?" and the other one said, "I'm going," and he escaped the Soviet Union.

*Edit*: The only line in my 10th grade US History book about Poland during the war is, "...the German armies quickly subdued Poland..." It says nothing about their hard and brave fighting. Oh well, what do you expect it's a US history book.

[KrvKpt. Falke]

Originally Posted by Rose

*Edit*: The only line in my 10th grade US History book about Poland during the war is, "...the German armies quickly subdued Poland..." It says nothing about their hard and brave fighting. Oh well, what do you expect it's a US history book.

Here in Poland we study Polish history AND world history (i think its not only in Poland like that but in most european countries). When i was, err.. younger than today [ ] those two subjects were equal, but today "weird" thing are happenning here in Poland (maybe youve heard something, who rules here and how...) and Polish history in schools is in the first place.
But! i was going to ask if there is no world history in american schools?

[Rose]

Originally Posted by KrvKpt. Falke

Here in Poland we study Polish history AND world history (i think its not only in Poland like that but in most european countries). When i was, err.. younger than today [ ] those two subjects were equal, but today "weird" thing are happenning here in Poland (maybe youve heard something, who rules here and how...) and Polish history in schools is in the first place.
But! i was going to ask if there is no world history in american schools?

We hold World History and US History as equal subjects as well (I can't say for the public school system -- I go to a private school were the school makes the rules, not the country). Each year, we switch off between the two. Last year, when I was 14/15 yrs old, we learned World History, so this year (15/16) we did US History. Next year, we have a choice between AP US History and AP European history (AP means a university-level course in high school). I am going to take AP Euro because I find European history fascinating.

No, I do not know who rules Poland now. What do you mean when you say that?

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by mariuszj1939

some of helicopers just arrived from Iraq mission (see condition )

My favorite helicopter

[KrvKpt. Falke]

Originally Posted by Rose

No, I do not know who rules Poland now. What do you mean when you say that?

Poland is ruled by strongly conservative party "Law & Justice" founded by our current president Lech Kaczynski and prime minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski.
I dont like talking too much about politics (especially polish politics ) but - in my opinion - brothers Kaczynski and their political party way of ruling is xenophobic, homophobic, full of extreme views. For example: they try to teach children in potriotic way, but its seems like patriotism (good) and nationalism (bad) is the same thing for them...
But lets talk some more pleasant things

[CCIP]

I'd also like to say sorry, if that's appropriate, on behalf of my country (USSR/Russia) I know we caused you guys a lot of trouble and there was a number of times (especially during the last Warsaw uprising) that Soviet reluctance to help was pretty suspect. That said, I don't know a Russian who doesn't appreciate Polish input into WWII (in fact thanks to a number of Polish movies, WWII Poles certainly had a rather heroic image in the old USSR) and I hope you guys don't hate us

[Grom]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I'd also like to say sorry, if that's appropriate, on behalf of my country (USSR/Russia)

You cant speak for whole Russian nation.
We should learn the lesson, pray above the gaves, and never turn back to that reality. It was not Russians themself. Ordinary citizen could not stand against the system built by communists or fascits ( in Germans case ). What have been done cant be undone. I hope that ordinary people do not share our silly politicians views. They are making us stand against each other. Still i cant understand them, why these people without hasitation can send thousands on death. Is that our human being nature to kill each other or hate each other just because stupid politicians are poisoning us with propaganda ?

[94cruiser]

I'm a Pole but came to the states in 7th grade.
In high school I studied US history and Government and World History, however as far as world history there was very much little about WW2 especially. Basically that war started in 39 when Germany attacked Poland, and then England joined in. Huge deal about Pearl Harbor, hm. There was no mentioning how the U-Boats almost destroyed England, and how with the help of Poles the Battle of England was won. This was in a suburban public high school. Oh yes, I remember mentioning of the Enigma and I had to fight with the teacher explaining how the Poles broke the code first... I remember in grade school in Poland we would study Polish history and world history, same thing with geography. I don't know how things are today, I work for a high school so I guess I should check out their history books. he he

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I haven't seen this thread before and now Ive read it all. And it almost made me vomit.

I'm a Pole myself and I can't say I'm kind a particularly proud of it.

First, I don't think there is anything special about Polish history. Almost any Pole loves to repeat:
1. We SAVED EUROPE against Turkish Muslims! (bull****, it's Russian who did much more against Turkey throughout history; one battle never saves continents).
2. We won the BIGGEST battle. So what? I'm fat because I eat BIGGEST. That battle didn't bring us almost any good then, we could totally smash the enemy after it IF the king head his head at its place. We had many numerous friends who helped us. Maybe should the Lithuanians rather say that they saved Europe, or Russes, Checs, Moldavians or Smolenians?
3. We had the best pilots in the WWII! Haha. Yes. And no planes for them to fly, no airports to go off, no sufficient fuel supplies IN CASE of longlasting war against Russia and Germany. We lost that war, remember? £o¶ (and Mi¶) were the best bombers of their time, and none of have has ever reached any particular achievements. Ask people about Stuka and Spitfire. All know that names. Ask about £o¶. Ask about £o¶. Ask about £o¶...
4. We broke the Enigma code. Yes, we participated in breaking it in a large part, that's true. I'd even say we are as a nation particularly good in breaking anything we touch.
7. History treated us unfair. - That is the very biggest lie I've ever seen. £e¿ to zaiste! (a, taki wtrêcik z Sienkiewicza, nie mog³em siê powstrzymaæ). Ask just ANY of our neighbours, if they were treated 'fair' by us. Ask Checs about Zaolzie. Ask Ukrainians about our occupation and final treason. Ask Lithuanians about... about almost whole our history. Ask Russians too... They celebrate victory against Poland till XXI century as their national holiday! We were hated and spitted at for centuries for being an unwelcome guest. If we look closer, we see 'history' treated us quite well, but finally we happened to be weaker than neighbours and they decided to eat us for supper. Just as we would do, if we ever could.
8. We had the first constitution in Europe. How long did it last before erasing Poland off the map? Did it bring any real change in Europe? Did it bring at leat one litle new idea others would pick? Did it save Poland or did it save at least 1 human life?
Forgot the rest, like "we defeated communism", "we saved Europe in 1920", "we...", "we...", "weee".

Ask for "them" at least once. :hmm: What did we give the world? Rennesainse? Did we fill it with our technical or scientifical achievements? Like maybe 50-100 Nobel Prizes? Did we produce the best literature of the..? Maybe just comics..? No.. Or, did we build something really big, like idea of democracy or human rights or uniting Europe, or, say, introdicing ever lasting peace? No, we haven't achieved any of these. European civilisation has earned more from Chinese than from Poles.

But, for this little moment, let's assume that Polish are truly unique (that's the way almost any Pole thinks it is). Matthew Ridley wrote in "The Origins of Virtue": "there is nothing special in being special. In fact just anything IS special just because it's not like any other thing, that is itself special too". The very idea of being is special itself, I'd say. Even if we are special because we speak Polish and the rest doesn't (the Germans cannot speak at all - Polish word for 'German', Niemiec, means 'mute, dumb', quite offensive I'd say), it doesn't change anything. Italians and French are special too (English and Americans are not, as almost anybody can speak English). And noone cares.

So let's stop mourning our history and just start to live free lives. Let's earn money, let's have sex or let's play games, let the present and the future is our concern, not past. The past was sometimes glorious, sometimes shameful, but it WAS, and we ARE.

No offense to anyone. Remember I'm a Pole too. The above is just an opinion, of the kind you discuss when having a drink. Just wanted to spread some cold water on the pro-Polish enthusiasm here. It's nice people abroad remember Polish damn good pilots, but that doesn't mean we must instantly tell them all about our national complexes.


PS. And it's not me nor you who won the damn Battle of Tannenberg, so why be proud of it?

[Grom]

Originally Posted by Abd_von_Mumit

No offense to anyone. Remember I'm a Pole too. The above is just an opinion, of the kind you discuss when having a drink. Just wanted to spread some cold water on the pro-Polish enthusiasm here. It's nice people abroad remember Polish damn good pilots, but that doesn't mean we must instantly tell them all about our national complexes.

No offense to you. But i have not noticed anybody been pro-Polish, or feel special because been Polish ? I dont really see Your point, to be honest. I am Polish too, living abroad, discovering history of Polish sailors. Been on grave of cmdr.B.Krawczyk (if you know who was that). Finally i am submarines warefare of WW2 lover - we call such guys "shiplover". Not submarines simulator games lover, if You feel the difference. You might learn history from book if You red one. I am the one who learn it from archives and is able to write the book about history for guys like yourself. Probably i could say much more about history of polish navy during the war and its dark secrets than you can imagine. This tread is not about Poles been special, at least i havent got such feelings. Poles abroad feel stronger their Polish - been than those who lives in Poland. But steel is not feeling been special. And dont forget about these few milions Poles lost their lifes because they were "not special" Germans or were not addicted communists like many Russians. Many of them have died so you can write such a things today and can live in free country.

So your opinion have been noticed, however for the next time please stick to subject of discussion.Thx

[XXi]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I'd also like to say sorry, if that's appropriate, on behalf of my country (USSR/Russia) I know we caused you guys a lot of trouble and there was a number of times (especially during the last Warsaw uprising) that Soviet reluctance to help was pretty suspect. That said, I don't know a Russian who doesn't appreciate Polish input into WWII (in fact thanks to a number of Polish movies, WWII Poles certainly had a rather heroic image in the old USSR) and I hope you guys don't hate us

Personally, I must say that there was a lot of problems throughout the history between our countries. However, I DO distinguish between the rulers and policy of the country AND the people.
In this certain part of history, I must say that Russians were among the greatest victims of the communism so blaming the Russians in general for Lenin`s or Stalin`s policy wouldn`t make much sense - the Russsians were victims of that policy in much greater degree, and for much longer time, than Poles.
So no hate between us, mate

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Originally Posted by Grom

No offense to you. But i have not noticed anybody been pro-Polish, or feel special because been Polish ? I dont really see Your point, to be honest. I am Polish too, living abroad, discovering history of Polish sailors. Been on grave of cmdr.B.Krawczyk (if you know who was that). Finally i am submarines warefare of WW2 lover - we call such guys "shiplover". Not submarines simulator games lover, if You feel the difference. You might learn history from book if You red one. I am the one who learn it from archives and is able to write the book about history for guys like yourself. Probably i could say much more about history of polish navy during the war and its dark secrets than you can imagine. This tread is not about Poles been special, at least i havent got such feelings. Poles abroad feel stronger their Polish - been than those who lives in Poland. But steel is not feeling been special. And dont forget about these few milions Poles lost their lifes because they were "not special" Germans or were not addicted communists like many Russians. Many of them have died so you can write such a things today and can live in free country.

So your opinion have been noticed, however for the next time please stick to subject of discussion.Thx

My post commented, as you noticed, the "Poles being special" part of the thread. Please do not link this to any kind or flavour of -ism, nor nazism, nor communism, as it's not relevant to what I said above.

If you feel offended, I'm sorry, as it wasn't my intention to offend anybody. But I'm not sorry about any of my opinions expressed above, as there is nothing to be sorry about sharing one's opinions.

PS. And I read books, at least remember reading a few.

[Grom]

Originally Posted by Abd_von_Mumit

And I read books, at least remember reading a few.

Thats great. One day maybe you buy mine and become my customer/reader

[Kaleu_Mihoo]

Wiesz Abd_von_Mumit, zmusilem sie do przeczytania twoich przemyslen i szczerze powiedziawszy takiego skondensowanego byczego g@@na nie czytalem juz dawno...zarabiaj pieniadze i p@@@@@ kogo chcesz, moze kiedys zrozumiesz o czym pisze Grom...A moze po prostu w kraju obecnie modna jest postawa "z dnia na dzien, byle dalej od jakichkolwiek wartosci, historii i tradycji"?

nie pozdrawiam

[Grom]

Panowie tylko spokojnie.
Nie ma sie co emocjonowac.
Kazdy ma prawo do wlasnego zdania.

Ja takze nie zgadzam sie z Abd von Mumit, ale podyskutowac nalezy w spokoju. Glupio bedzie wygladac na miedzynarodowym forum, zeby sie Polacy miedzy soba klocili. Nie zapominajcie, ze tutaj zaglada bardzo duzo nie tylko uzytkownikow forum, ale przede wszystkim gosci.