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Old 12-12-2019, 08:32 PM   #211
von Zelda
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Originally Posted by propbeanie View Post
The IJN torpedoes do not hunt, so I don't know what you heard....... dealing with WWII "hunter" torpedoes, you want to go quiet with an immediate reduction to 1 knot and Silent Running..... Two cylinders dropped would be the Depth Charges. They are elongated to be carry-able under the wing of the Betty.

There are issues with one of the Zero fighters also..... thanks for the info though!
Definitely heard (only) two at one time, high pitched propeller noise all over the hydrophone dial for approx. 20 minutes, which moved around every so often. I only saw one cylinder, that looked like a torpedo to me, thrown off to one side of the Betty. What does Betty's torpedo look like when it is dropped? A cylinder?

I ran at max speed because I wanted to get hit by the torpedo to test my hypothesis. I would have gone to silent running and 1 knot in a real battle.

I'll also watch out for the Zero. Let us know what you find. Thanks for looking.
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Old 12-13-2019, 09:31 PM   #212
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Question: Are there distress flares launched from some sinking merchants in FOTRSU? I see the vanilla white flares floating in the sky but no red flares.

Many thanks and regards.

Fitzcarraldo
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Old 12-13-2019, 09:52 PM   #213
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Default Sub and Crew stuck in Brisbane

Propbeanie,

Completed a successful patrol sinking 57,000 tons; reported back to home port of Brisbane in early March 1943.

Passed out medals and promotions, restocked torpedoes and crew. Went to map to obtain operation orders:

Depart Brisbane on April 7, 1943 (it stated)
Error: No Primary Found! (it stated)

There was no way, no how to depart. Went back, tried again, same orders, can't depart. Tried a transfer that was granted, went to map and received the same Error: No Primary Found!

The only thing I've not tried is to go back to a save prior to entering port, do it all over again and see what happens. I thought I'd post this problem first, then try prior save.

Any other suggestions?


UPDATE: Went back to prior save before entering port and did it all again. Received new operation orders, so off we went.

Last edited by von Zelda; 12-14-2019 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 12-14-2019, 12:21 AM   #214
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The IJN torpedoes do not hunt, so I don't know what you heard - btw, the thing to do if you are ever dealing with WWII "hunter" torpedoes, you want to go quiet with an immediate reduction to 1 knot and Silent Running, drop your depth to the test line, and try to be "facing" it / them. "Noise" is what the torps follow. Two cylinders dropped would be the Depth Charges. They are elongated to be carry-able under the wing of the Betty. That last Betty was the "G4M Betty Divebomber". I am currently running through a Test Mission, and I have no conclusive answers just yet, other than CapnScurvy's "Day of Infamy" Betty Baka has be cleared and is innocent of any wrong-doings - but that's not to say that they are innocent... Sank my submarine on one try in each of three test missions... wowser!

There are issues with one of the Zero fighters also. When I made my Test Mission, I put the four Betty models in it, the Pete and the three zero models in. I was removing one plane at a time, and still had CTDs on the exit from the mission and game when I went back to the desktop, so I finally wised-up and now I'm running them one plane at a time, nothing else other than my sub... - some folks just have to learn the hard way... - thanks for the info though!
You will hear enemy torpedoes from different bearings on sonar. This is because they are going in a straight line from one area to another and you are moving and maybe turning. A fish from bearing 340 will run towards your 160 degrees. However depending on how far away this was dropped and how you dive and steer will affect your listening bearing. At times this can make it sound as if they are around you but you are simply listening to them pass you by. I have also noticed the sonar is fairly loud to mimic the ease of sound traveling underwater. What my ear may say is 2000 yards normally winds up being like 8000-10000 yards.
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Old 12-14-2019, 12:22 AM   #215
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Question: Are there distress flares launched from some sinking merchants in FOTRSU? I see the vanilla white flares floating in the sky but no red flares.

Many thanks and regards.

Fitzcarraldo
Those are starburst flares you see and they are trying to find you. No there are no distress red flares.
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Old 12-14-2019, 06:25 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by merc4ulfate View Post
Those are starburst flares you see and they are trying to find you. No there are no distress red flares.
Many thanks! Is it possible to add the red flares to some merchants? SH3 and SH5 have them...

Best regards.

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Old 12-14-2019, 11:01 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by von Zelda View Post
Propbeanie,

Completed a successful patrol sinking 57,000 tons; reported back to home port of Brisbane in early March 1943.

Passed out medals and promotions, restocked torpedoes and crew. Went to map to obtain operation orders:

Depart Brisbane on April 7, 1943 (it stated)
Error: No Primary Found! (it stated)

There was no way, no how to depart. Went back, tried again, same orders, can't depart. Tried a transfer that was granted, went to map and received the same Error: No Primary Found!

The only thing I've not tried is to go back to a save prior to entering port, do it all over again and see what happens. I thought I'd post this problem first, then try prior save.

Any other suggestions?


UPDATE: Went back to prior save before entering port and did it all again. Received new operation orders, so off we went.
I'll dig through the Solomon Islands and Bismark Sea Missions then. There are only like four missions for each, plus two for the Solomon Sea area, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find the offender. When a person gets one of those type missions, you are stuck. Even a transfer hangs on to that last "No Primary Found" error assignment, and the only way out is to either edit the Save data, which does introduce problems of its own, or to go back to the Save prior to the Arrival Save and re-do what you had already done, and hope that the roll of the dice for mission assignment doesn't hit that same "No Primary Found" mis file. We'll dig that one out.

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Originally Posted by merc4ulfate View Post
You will hear enemy torpedoes from different bearings on sonar. This is because they are going in a straight line from one area to another and you are moving and maybe turning. A fish from bearing 340 will run towards your 160 degrees. However depending on how far away this was dropped and how you dive and steer will affect your listening bearing. At times this can make it sound as if they are around you but you are simply listening to them pass you by. I have also noticed the sonar is fairly loud to mimic the ease of sound traveling underwater. What my ear may say is 2000 yards normally winds up being like 8000-10000 yards.
Now, when I was doing the airplane tests here yesterday and before, I did have one torpedo plane attack that after he dropped, the torp stayed in the 12-16° range off my starboard bow for a good while, and it did sound like it was circling, which I had never had one hang around that long before, nor one that sounded like it was circling. I also never saw a wake trail or torpedo in the water the whole time I looked, which was over a 15 minute period. The crew of the plane was set to "Competent", under the hopes that I could survive and see all of the planes I had in the mission take a crack at my sub one after the other, and the boat would still be a target for the next. I've tried similar in the campaign, where all planes are "Elite", and usually the sub doesn't survive past the 2nd or 3rd attack. This might be the difference between a good drop and a bad drop, with the crew on "Competent" instead of "Elite", and might explain the torpedo behavior, since the "drop" in this case was botched, and the torpedo went in tail first, almost vertical - although I think the "drop" is just for show, and a "real" torpedo is spawned on the splash of the drop... We might also test the differences between a Betty with a torpedo, the Kate, and the Tenzan, and see which circle, and which straight-line, because I've only heard straight-line torpedoes in FotRSU before...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcarraldo View Post
Many thanks! Is it possible to add the red flares to some merchants? SH3 and SH5 have them...

Best regards.

Fitzcarraldo
It should be possible, and they were in FOTRS v2.x for v1.4 previously. I am reasonably certain that the Library files are just this side of similar, and probably contain them. I do know though, that there is a performance hit with them, but it should be possible to reduce that a bit...
----------------------------------------------------
Now, as to the plane tests I've been doing off and on for a while, but heavy-duty worth the last few days now, we have come to a startling conclusion, that really shouldn't be so startling at all, and that is the fact that when different plane types are mixed in a grouping, it causes trouble - sometimes lots of trouble, which only makes sense when you think about it... For a group, there is one set of Waypoints to follow, and a "Leader" plane of the group. Now, the Level Bombers, which are designated Type=301 will attack "Level", so if they are set at 500 meters height, they will climb a bit (unknown quantity to me), stay there and then drop their bombs, then come back to the level assigned in the Waypoints on their route - IF they are in a group of their own. The Dive Bombers are Type=302, will approach the same as Level Bombers, but after they climb to their prescribed height (again, unknown to me), they will then "Dive" (they do not do a 60-80° dive, but rather about a 30° slope) to deliver their payload, and after the drop, will again resume the Waypoint height. A fighter Type=300 will do a similar attack run, but without any climbing, unless their target is "up" from their current height, or the plane is too low to do a descending attack. The Torpedo planes at Type=303 will generally descend during their approach phase, and stay there to deliver their payload, then gyrate wildly to regain their Waypoint speed. Gaining their attack height, if they don't know of a target ahead prior to spotting it, might entail a hard turn to one direction or the other, in an attempt to spiral down to their attack height, which looks to be maybe no higher that 50-100 meters off the water. Very cool to watch an "Elite" torpedo plane attack like that, but the "Competent" torpedo plane often crashes on the way in, or the way out from an attack ("Competent" Dive Bombers will do similar). The Type=304 Patrol plane will generally stay high, unless there is a payload on them, like the H6K, or some of the PBY planes, in which case, they generally attack like a dive bomber, which for planes of those constructions, if in real life would have ripped the wings from the fuselage... - But all of the planes seem capable of strafing attacks, unless they do not have a loadout, which is difficult to determine if a plane is a Stock plane. Some digging is required. Suffice to say, especially with the Betty planes, which encompass the 301, 302 & 303 categories, you cannot mix those either, and from observations, it seems you cannot mix the same plane, such as the Betty, from the same Type and Class that have different Loadouts, since the Loadout might dictate the attack type, whether Level, Dive or Torpedo...

This is very frustrating to deal with, since from the beginning of the SH4 days, groups were "mixed". CapnScurvy and I had discussed this a couple of years ago, when we saw off-behavior from the B-24 Liberators flying to bomb Kiska or Attu, and they were flying into each other, or the B-17s that fly-over Pearl during certain time frames. So all of those particular groups were made to "match". It looks like we'll have to do the same for every group in the game and mod... sheesh... - besides the fact that is seems they all want to be the "Leader of the Pack", and there are other planes in the group that are in their way, preventing them from attaining such. Unlike ships, Airplanes do not "convoy" well. Thankfully, they are not "on stage" too long in the game... "Fixing" this will take a while, and might not happen all at once.
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Last edited by propbeanie; 12-14-2019 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Whare dedd u larn to sprell lok datt?...
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Old 12-14-2019, 02:07 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by propbeanie View Post
I'll dig through the Solomon Islands and Bismark Sea Missions then. There are only like four missions for each, plus two for the Solomon Sea area, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find the offender. When a person gets one of those type missions, you are stuck. Even a transfer hangs on to that last "No Primary Found" error assignment, and the only way out is to either edit the Save data, which does introduce problems of its own, or to go back to the Save prior to the Arrival Save and re-do what you had already done, and hope that the roll of the dice for mission assignment doesn't hit that same "No Primary Found" mis file. We'll dig that one out.


Now, when I was doing the airplane tests here yesterday and before, I did have one torpedo plane attack that after he dropped, the torp stayed in the 12-16° range off my starboard bow for a good while, and it did sound like it was circling, which I had never had one hang around that long before, nor one that sounded like it was circling. I also never saw a wake trail or torpedo in the water the whole time I looked, which was over a 15 minute period. The crew of the plane was set to "Competent", under the hopes that I could survive and see all of the planes I had in the mission take a crack at my sub one after the other, and the boat would still be a target for the next. I've tried similar in the campaign, where all planes are "Elite", and usually the sub doesn't survive past the 2nd or 3rd attack. This might be the difference between a good drop and a bad drop, with the crew on "Competent" instead of "Elite", and might explain the torpedo behavior, since the "drop" in this case was botched, and the torpedo went in tail first, almost vertical - although I think the "drop" is just for show, and a "real" torpedo is spawned on the splash of the drop... We might also test the differences between a Betty with a torpedo, the Kate, and the Tenzan, and see which circle, and which straight-line, because I've only heard straight-line torpedoes in FotRSU before...


It should be possible, and they were in FOTRS v2.x for v1.4 previously. I am reasonably certain that the Library files are just this side of similar, and probably contain them. I do know though, that there is a performance hit with them, but it should be possible to reduce that a bit...
----------------------------------------------------
Now, as to the plane tests I've been doing off and on for a while, but heavy-duty worth the last few days now, we have come to a startling conclusion, that really shouldn't be so startling at all, and that is the fact that when different plane types are mixed in a grouping, it causes trouble - sometimes lots of trouble, which only makes sense when you think about it... For a group, there is one set of Waypoints to follow, and a "Leader" plane of the group. Now, the Level Bombers, which are designated Type=301 will attack "Level", so if they are set at 500 meters height, they will climb a bit (unknown quantity to me), stay there and then drop their bombs, then come back to the level assigned in the Waypoints on their route - IF they are in a group of their own. The Dive Bombers are Type=302, will approach the same as Level Bombers, but after they climb to their prescribed height (again, unknown to me), they will then "Dive" (they do not do a 60-80° dive, but rather about a 30° slope) to deliver their payload, and after the drop, will again resume the Waypoint height. A fighter Type=300 will do a similar attack run, but without any climbing, unless their target is "up" from their current height, or the plane is too low to do a descending attack. The Torpedo planes at Type=303 will generally descend during their approach phase, and stay there to deliver their payload, then gyrate wildly to regain their Waypoint speed. Gaining their attack height, if they don't know of a target ahead prior to spotting it, might entail a hard turn to one direction or the other, in an attempt to spiral down to their attack height, which looks to be maybe no higher that 50-100 meters off the water. Very cool to watch an "Elite" torpedo plane attack like that, but the "Competent" torpedo plane often crashes on the way in, or the way out from an attack ("Competent" Dive Bombers will do similar). The Type=304 Patrol plane will generally stay high, unless there is a payload on them, like the H6K, or some of the PBY planes, in which case, they generally attack like a dive bomber, which for planes of those constructions, if in real life would have ripped the wings from the fuselage... - But all of the planes seem capable of strafing attacks, unless they do not have a loadout, which is difficult to determine if a plane is a Stock plane. Some digging is required. Suffice to say, especially with the Betty planes, which encompass the 301, 302 & 303 categories, you cannot mix those either, and from observations, it seems you cannot mix the same plane, such as the Betty, from the same Type and Class that have different Loadouts, since the Loadout might dictate the attack type, whether Level, Dive or Torpedo...

This is very frustrating to deal with, since from the beginning of the SH4 days, groups were "mixed". CapnScurvy and I had discussed this a couple of years ago, when we saw off-behavior from the B-24 Liberators flying to bomb Kiska or Attu, and they were flying into each other, or the B-17s that fly-over Pearl during certain time frames. So all of those particular groups were made to "match". It looks like we'll have to do the same for every group in the game and mod... sheesh... - besides the fact that is seems they all want to be the "Leader of the Pack", and there are other planes in the group that are in their way, preventing them from attaining such. Unlike ships, Airplanes do not "convoy" well. Thankfully, they are not "on stage" too long in the game... "Fixing" this will take a while, and might not happen all at once.

Wouldn't you set multiple groups on the same flight paths but at different flight altitudes or set farther apart along the same path? I would think this would solve some of those issues being multi groups so the types are not mixed but you could achieve a larger group it would just take more effort to do so unless you can somehow copy and past groups then edit the profiles of type and load to make it easier.

Do you have any plane test files for download that would not interfere with the campaign set up of load in of a current game? I would run some test if you wanted.
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Old 12-14-2019, 02:47 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by merc4ulfate View Post
Wouldn't you set multiple groups on the same flight paths but at different flight altitudes or set farther apart along the same path? I would think this would solve some of those issues being multi groups so the types are not mixed but you could achieve a larger group it would just take more effort to do so unless you can somehow copy and past groups then edit the profiles of type and load to make it easier.

Do you have any plane test files for download that would not interfere with the campaign set up of load in of a current game? I would run some test if you wanted.
I might post some test files for the testers to try, but right now, I've only got one, since I was editing the same file for each test as I ran it... I'm also looking for a thread on SubSim from a while ago, where someone had determined the differences between the different plane Type flights and attacks, but so far, I've gotten a lot of chaffe instead...

When it comes to "Groups", you might have 50 planes, all single file, of which only one plane is "Leader". I have not found any documentation as to which of the fifty planes is considered the Leader in an RGG. I know the way the ships do it, but not the planes. They are a weird bunch of assets...

In a scripted group, it's the plane designated as Leader, and they line-up the way you draw them in the ME. But under no circumstances are they supposed to deviate from the Waypoint routing - though they do, and under no circumstances are they to deviate from the "height" setting, though they do. Most of that "deviation" is from the AI control on them, of which we have no documentation. But if you put a Dive Bomber as Lead unit, and tie Level Bombers to it, and Fighters to it, that's when you see the "stutter" flight from the planes, where it looks like they can't make up their minds as to where to fly. My thoughts are that these airplanes, in their "hesitation", are eating up clock cycles on the cpu, and killing the RAM buffer that the game uses, and that this is why you'll see the fps drop, sometimes resulting in a crash all because of a relatively few airplanes.

Other situations, where you have groups built to be all the same, you can have 10 times as many planes and not have half of the issues. But the different groups of airplanes all "attack" differently, and that's where the main part of the trouble comes in, from what I've observed, if you mix the Types, which Stock has done since day one. Also, you can build a mission file in the ME, and then go into the text editor with it, and set the planes all to different heights, but as soon as they hit that first waypoint, they all will conform to that. It is the nature of the beast. It will take a bit, but I am going through the files and attempting to segregate the different groups, and with some of the planes, further segregate them based upon what they are carrying, and we'll see what happens.
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