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Old 06-22-2011, 10:16 AM   #1561
Hitman
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Stiebler,

I would strongly advice to allow scuttling the uboat even without any hull damage, as there are situations where you realistically would have done so even if not much damaged or not damaged at all. For example:

1) If missing a rendezvous with a tanker or uboat and running out of fuel in an enemy-controlled area

2) If getting damage that would not allow you to submerge or even return to base, in enemy-controlled areas

3) If cornered without escape and preferring to scuttle the boat in a deep water area, so that the enemy can't rescue it.

In general, the decission to abandon and scuttle UBoat belonged to the commander, and he needed to evaluate the circumstances and could decide so even if with little or no damage. Of course, he would need to later provide a clear explanation of why he decided to scuttle the uboat, but if his reasons were accepted he would get another command. Since this last aspect is impossible to code, I would simply leave the scuttle option entirely open, even if with no damage at all -as it was in real life- and let the player decide wether he deserves a new uboat or not.
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Old 06-22-2011, 10:52 AM   #1562
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If you are out of fuel, you can dive deep and wait at moment, when pressure of water breaks pressure hull under 20%, after that you blow balast, send message and dive submarine to death...

But what to do in places with shallow waters? For example the tin part about Dover - typical place full of aircraft and destroyers, in later years of war is almost impossible move through Dover inlet alive, but i think, there is not enough water to crash submarine although hull is destroyed under 20 %.

Stiebler, what to do in this case? If i will run on flank speed and hit bottom again and again, until sub is completely destroyed, will this work OK?

BTW: Good work, man :-) And as you say - no one reads this carrier summary.
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:56 PM   #1563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeromeHeretic View Post
If you are out of fuel, you can dive deep and wait at moment, when pressure of water breaks pressure hull under 20%, after that you blow balast, send message and dive submarine to death...
Why complicate so much? I agree with Hitman - please leave the decission to the commander, even if the hull is on 90%. And is the scuttle necessary (I understand that there can be a technical reason for this)?
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Old 06-22-2011, 05:59 PM   #1564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h.sie View Post
@Mefaba: Would be interesting to try it out. But use "U-" instead of "u-". Case-sensitive!!!

h.sie
Finally tried the pseudo dock feature on surface supply ships.

I just resupplied from Bessel. But no torpedo was loaded. Then went on to Thalia. Again refueled but no torpedo reload. 4 internal bow reserve tubes were emptied intentionally. But didn't get any torpedoes.

Also I have a strange problem. When I send a patrol report, I get a blank message from BdU. Like that:



I did everything as told in the readme file. Copied and pasted Messages for h.sie sh3.exe patch in en.menu.txt but I don't get any messages from BdU. Also when I get a fog warning from the watch officer, nothing is written below. Also I can't see other warning messages that come with this patch.

What causes this?
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Old 06-22-2011, 06:03 PM   #1565
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Thanks Stiebler !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman View Post
Stiebler,

I would strongly advice to allow scuttling the uboat even without any hull damage, as there are situations where you realistically would have done so even if not much damaged or not damaged at all. For example:

1) If missing a rendezvous with a tanker or uboat and running out of fuel in an enemy-controlled area

2) If getting damage that would not allow you to submerge or even return to base, in enemy-controlled areas

3) If cornered without escape and preferring to scuttle the boat in a deep water area, so that the enemy can't rescue it.
@Stiebler

Thank you very much, again, for all this code-work

IMHO, I must agree with Hitman, not by principle but by player experience (over 480 war patrols, heavy moded GWX, NYGM, WAC).

I mean, many times I was in situation unable to move the U-boot due to severe damages, in machines, batteries, rudder, propeller etc. BUT with hull integrity much more than 20 %.

I would like to say something more:

I suppose you did all this job for use with any super mod or any moded SH3.

Yes, but, "every" player here is a different zones.cfg. . . and not only.

It is very possible to have a heavy-damaged-scrap-inside U-boot with very healthy hull integrity. . .

Thanks for asking feedback.

Thanks for keeping it alive
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Old 06-22-2011, 06:08 PM   #1566
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The patch works for me, but I have one question; Sometimes my message box shows a message from the CE, but without any text, only "CE:". Is this normal, and should I just ignore it?
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Old 06-22-2011, 06:10 PM   #1567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulski View Post
The patch works for me, but I have one question; Sometimes my message box shows a message from the CE, but without any text, only "CE:". Is this normal, and should I just ignore it?
That's what I am talking about.

Normally it must show a warning message that comes with this mod/patch. But they don't show up. In my case, BdU replies to patrol reports also don't show up.
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Old 06-22-2011, 06:57 PM   #1568
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulski View Post
The patch works for me, but I have one question; Sometimes my message box shows a message from the CE, but without any text, only "CE:". Is this normal, and should I just ignore it?
That's the 'fog warning'. It may be that other mods interfere, but I'm experiencing the same thing. I'm not too bothered with it, if I just see the "CE:" I know weather has changed and visibility is bad.
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Old 06-22-2011, 07:53 PM   #1569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mefaba View Post
That's what I am talking about.

Normally it must show a warning message that comes with this mod/patch. But they don't show up. In my case, BdU replies to patrol reports also don't show up.
I get reply from BdU, but the standard one from GWX. But that's because I'm using the F version of this patch, and only the G version has the 28 different replies. Don't know wich version you are running offcourse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakkels View Post
That's the 'fog warning'. It may be that other mods interfere, but I'm experiencing the same thing. I'm not too bothered with it, if I just see the "CE:" I know weather has changed and visibility is bad.
So I get the warning at every weather change? Because I haven't seen any fog yet, after this patch...
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Old 06-22-2011, 08:01 PM   #1570
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This patch has no influence on graphics. What I mean is; it depends on what environment mod you have how much you actually visually notice the fog. The thing this mod does (well, one of the many things) is that it warns you when visibility is reduced. So when you go from clear skies to a storm with overcast, it just warns you. That's the "CE:" message. It doesn't do anything when for example weather goes from clear skies to slight overcast. Only when visibility [as your watch officer would report it when you ask him] changes to 'poor', you get this warning. It's quite handy actually.
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Old 06-23-2011, 01:24 AM   #1571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulski View Post
I get reply from BdU, but the standard one from GWX. But that's because I'm using the F version of this patch, and only the G version has the 28 different replies. Don't know wich version you are running offcourse.
I use G. I can live without the fog warning but this blank messages will drive me crazy.
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Old 06-23-2011, 02:48 AM   #1572
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@Mefaba: You must use the first 4 Fore_Internal_Reserve slots, not the Fore_Internal_Slots. They must be empty.

If there are blank messages when weather changes or you sent a status report some time ago -> that is a strong indicator that something went wrong with adding the additional messages to your installation. did you add the Supplement mod? look directly into your installation where you installed sh3. de_menu.txt and en_menu.txt should contain the new messages at the end of the file!

Did you get any messages after refuelling at U-tanker?

@Paulski: This fix does not change the weather. So if one hasn't seen any fog so far, this is NOT caused by this fixes! Try very high TC.

SOmetimes there are empty messages when water floods into the sub
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Last edited by h.sie; 06-23-2011 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:15 AM   #1573
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Default Surrender U-boat (2)

Many thanks for the feedback.

You all made some very good points, most of which I had not considered (ahem...).

1. (Hitman) Commander should choose when to scuttle. For example, U-boat might have run out of fuel.
Yes, very good point indeed, and that event has happened to me on a few occasions with SH3.

2. (JeromeHeretic). How can you dive to destruction in shallow water?
Another excellent point I had not considered.

3. (NGT). U-boat reduced to a wreck, but hull integrity undamaged.
And another very important point.

Clearly, then, the hull integrity, at which the U-boat can send a radio status message seeking to abandon ship, needs to be steeply raised. Hitman has suggested to 100%. I am reluctant to make the level as high as this, since then *every* radio message sent by the player will be a request to abandon ship. I cannot think of how to provide an extra toggle or button to press to change the radio status message.

Perhaps 50% damage would be a good compromise, and would fit with the existing code which causes BdU to order the U-boat to return home to base with severe damage.

There is another issue, which I have considered, but could not then find an answer:
If you are sunk in action next to a convoy, it is nearly certain you will be rescued by the Allies. If you sink yourself in mid-Atlantic (eg, run out of fuel), then it is nearly certain you will be rescued by U-boat. If you sink yourself in the Bay of Biscay after serious air attack, then you might be rescued by Allies or U-boat.

In other words, the probability of who rescues you depends on location (closeness of enemy, position in ocean). This is very hard to code, and I have not attempted it.

But reading your replies has given me an idea!
The probability of being rescued by U-boat (the best outcome) should depend on the extent of hull integrity when you send your emergency message. The higher the hull integrity, the more likely you are to be rescued by U-boat.

Thus, if you self-sink after running out of fuel, it is very probable that you will be rescued by U-boat.

If you self-sink after surfacing with heavy damage after an attack on a convoy, you will be shelled heavily, resulting in low hull integrity. So it is very likely you will be rescued by the Allies.

This new idea seems to fit the facts fairly well, although obviously it is possible to imagine circumstances where the result will be wrong. It will cause some difficult decisions for the Dead-Is-Dead players. When is best to surface, and when is best to try to escape?

Concerning NGT's problem - U-boat wrecked, high hull integrity. The best solution is to dive to deep depth, until the hull is also damaged, then blow ballast to return to the surface to send your abandoning message. If anyone can think of a better idea, then I should like to hear it.

Concerning Jerome's problem: how to self-sink in shallow water. As you suggested, you could keep rising and dropping onto the sea bottom, but that is not very acceptable. But I can think of nothing better.

What is really needed is another player action before sending the emergency radio message, which I can program to simulate setting off a scuttling-charge. In other words, after you commit this action, then send the radio message, the hull integrity is set to (say) 2% after 5 minutes. I shall think about that.

Thanks again for all the suggestions - very thought-provoking!

Stiebler.
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Old 06-23-2011, 03:49 AM   #1574
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If there's no solution for this situations, it doesn't matter to me. Simply it's old game, which have some limits. What you do over this limits is amazing anyway.

I like your idea with probability of rescue by U-boat by % of damage.
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Old 06-23-2011, 04:43 AM   #1575
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@mefaba: If new messages still are not displayed correctly, look at the beginning of en_menu.txt / de_menu.txt. There must be a line starting with NumberOfStrings=5000 or similar. This number should not be below 5000.
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