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Old 09-10-19, 03:48 AM   #1
skirich
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Default What’s more valuable a target?

I bumped into a massive convoy late 1944 in the Luzon straight.
It had one carrier and a 34,500 pound Battleship. The carrier was smaller but a nice size anyway.
Strategically a carrier is more important to sink especially when it’s got a full compliment of planes.
But in the game it’s about tonnage and the battleship was just massive.
Fuso class.

The convoy had 6 destroyers and a few other large ships I didn’t immediately recognize.
So I chose the battleship with a salvo of 6 torpedoes. 3 hit and she went down.
I high tailed it out of there fast.

So was that the right move or should I have gone for the carrier?
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Old 09-10-19, 05:59 AM   #2
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US Pacific doctrine changed throughout the war, other than CV were at the top of the list, then the BB. You might be told to concentrate of DD for a time, in an attempt to eliminate the bain of the submarines, or maybe told to concentrate on tankers, but the CV never lost their number one status. Must. Eliminate. Airplanes...
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Old 09-10-19, 09:41 AM   #3
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SHO Re: Target value..???

For me, all targets are high value targets... but that is just me, and will further explain.

On the whole of it, it is considered high value based on tonnage, which is all fine & good... but... for me, I look at each situation in different terms.

If it is a task force, then of course, carriers would take precedent, followed by battleships... but... when it comes down to it, destroyers are more of a threat than battleships, considering that they can move about faster than you can while you are submerged.

Now as for convoys... therein is a different matter all together, tankers, followed by ships that move cargo around then followed up by troop carriers...

An enemy that can't supply itself, is after all, a defeated one... just simple logistics...

But, in the grand scheme of things, all of this is a moot point, when you take into consideration that there is a serious glitch inherent in game.

That glitch being, the enemy AI, keeps throwing at you the same strong forces, all the time.

Why is this considered a glitch by me... it's simplistic in its answer...

The game fails, and in a big way here, to be able to actually keep up with just what forces it has on hand at the very start of the war... taking into account losses suffered at any given time during the course of it & then compounded all of that, by the follow up of replacements constructed/trained etc., afterwards... hence... epic fail.

To be fair, even though you are playing against a stacked deck, there is still that thrill, when you watch a brace of torp's loaded into the tubes, calc'ing the course speed & attack vector that the torps would need to be fired on to achieve its demise... and after firing them off to watch them hit it amidships, the explosions & finally its demise as it slips beneath the waves & takes that plunge to the deep....

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Old 09-10-19, 11:29 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skirich View Post
Luzon straight.

So was that the right move or should I have gone for the carrier?
U SHOULD GO FOR THE CARRIER; IT HAS THE MOST AMOUNT OF DESTRUCTIVE POWER OVER A VAST AREA (500+ MILES) WHEREAS A BB (ALREADY OBSOLETE BY WWII) HAS LIMITED GUNNERY RANGE (20 MILES) AND IS EXCEEDINGLY VULNERABLE TO AIRCRAFT-SO LEAVE THAT TO THE AIR POWER. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse THE SWIFT LIGHTLY-BUILT CARRIERS WILL ALSO TAKE FEWER TORPEDOS; SO IT IS A QUESTION OF THE PRINCIPLE: 'ECONOMY OF FORCES' IE: THE LEAST AMOUNT OF FORCE FROM YOUR END(FEWER TORPEDOS) TO REMOVE THE GREATER AMOUNT OF THE ENEMY'S' FIRE POWER OVER A VASTER AMOUNT OF TERRITORY; PERHAPS EVEN SAVING A BATTLESHIP ON YOUR SIDE FROM AIR ATTACKS IN THE PROCESS. IN THIS CASE:A MATTER OF 'GREATER STRATEGY' OVER 'IMMEDIATE TACTICS'. A SUBMARINE IS A STRATEGIC WEAPON AND NOT SUITED TO A TACTICAL SHIP-ON-SHIP DUEL, SO THE EMPHASIS SHOULD LEAN TOWARD SUPERIOR STRATEGY: STARVE THE ENEMY NATION INTO SUBMISSION OR REMOVE HIS CAPACITY TO WAGE OFFENSIVE WARFARE.....
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Old 09-10-19, 12:11 PM   #5
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Sounds about what I thought folks would say.
Yep I agree with it all.


I may go back to that save, I save just before all convoys, and try again.


That convoy, before I could see it, appeared massive on the radar. a few ships in the middle surrounded by what looked like a dozen in a circle around it. Had to be a carrier or battleship armada.



I have been playing with long range radar based position keeper, using the 3D TDC mod. Its been really quite effective and so nice to use. Steep learning curve though, but once learned its pretty sweet. No wonder we had such a huge advantage in our subs.


Anyway, I trained the TDC on the largest center blip and watched the solution develop. Tweaking as things got closer for a more accurate solution

By the time I had visual confirmation of the armada, it was too late to change the solution.


I knew I had to make a spread barrage of all six torpedos at one target since it was going to be a long range shot. It was too dangerous to allow for a close in shot due to the accompanying surface destroyers.


So I made up my mind and went for tonnage instead of quickly loosing my mind trying to recalc the solution for the carrier which was on the far side of the armada.


Poor luck on my part for lining up on that side of the armada.
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Old 09-10-19, 01:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skirich View Post
... Poor luck on my part for lining up on that side of the armada.
Visibility, or sonar identification are about it, so since you lined up on the radar blip, you did the right thing, else everyone gets away except you... "target of opportunity" I believe they call it. Don't ruin a good approach to go after something else - unless absolutely necessary, such as you've been ordered to, or you forgot to come up to PD, or maybe you neglected to open the tubes... ahem - I had to bring the XO up on charges for not reminding me...
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Old 09-10-19, 04:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propbeanie View Post
Visibility, or sonar identification are about it, so since you lined up on the radar blip, you did the right thing, else everyone gets away except you... "target of opportunity" I believe they call it. Don't ruin a good approach to go after something else - unless absolutely necessary, such as you've been ordered to, or you forgot to come up to PD, or maybe you neglected to open the tubes... ahem - I had to bring the XO up on charges for not reminding me...
should i share the real difference between sinking a IJN carrier or an IJN BB with skirich?
the carrier will be the tougher target because their elude protocol causes them to speed up and move out of the area. some mods will allow them to launch planes to hunt you.
BB's will slow down when the TF is attacked.
and the last piece, BB's are worth more points than a CV. hey, i'm not the programmer here so don't go off on me. if you want to make carriers more valuable then change that value in their config.
but i did not disclose any of this to skirich.
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Old 09-10-19, 04:52 PM   #8
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Look in FotRSU, and you'll see that all of the enemy renown awarded is lowered, but the BB more than the CV, such that the CV are worth more than the BB. Also, if you go below PD, the carriers will spawn planes, as will most of the BB. Different types of planes, but planes with bombs that fall down the conn hatch nonetheless...
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Old 09-10-19, 06:15 PM   #9
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Interesting stuff. I wish the game would have spawned some planes after the Battleship was attacked. Did'nt notice any but that would have been cool to see.



That said, is there any distinction inmap contact info for a battlegroup vs a merchant convoy?


I know task force means warships, but just about every task force I chased was nothing more than a bunch of destroyers.


I'm wonder if there is another way to find these large battlegroups besides just aimlessly wandering the ocean.
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Old 09-10-19, 07:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skirich View Post
Sounds about what I thought folks would say.
Yep I agree with it all.


I may go back to that save, I save just before all convoys, and try again.


That convoy, before I could see it, appeared massive on the radar. a few ships in the middle surrounded by what looked like a dozen in a circle around it. Had to be a carrier or battleship armada.



I have been playing with long range radar based position keeper, using the 3D TDC mod. Its been really quite effective and so nice to use. Steep learning curve though, but once learned its pretty sweet. No wonder we had such a huge advantage in our subs.


Anyway, I trained the TDC on the largest center blip and watched the solution develop. Tweaking as things got closer for a more accurate solution

By the time I had visual confirmation of the armada, it was too late to change the solution.


I knew I had to make a spread barrage of all six torpedos at one target since it was going to be a long range shot. It was too dangerous to allow for a close in shot due to the accompanying surface destroyers.


So I made up my mind and went for tonnage instead of quickly loosing my mind trying to recalc the solution for the carrier which was on the far side of the armada.


Poor luck on my part for lining up on that side of the armada.
What are you upset about?!?

By your skill and determination you and your men permanently deprived the enemy of a major capital vessel! There is absolutely nothing to be sorry about!

Hearty well done and sleep well!
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Old 09-10-19, 07:43 PM   #11
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You don't get to "see" the game spawn anything. No airplane launches, no DD leaving the docks. The game only "spawns" its assets outside your view, beyond the horizon, so about 30nm away, even when you're below PD.

If you're in the Stock game, on the NavMap, you can zoom-in on any identified ship and see its outline, and ascertain from its outline what it is. It may not be always 100% accurate, but more than reasonably reliable. Some mods will exchange that outline for a dot, like the leader of the tracking team doesn't have drawing skills, and just uses a dot instead. Of course, when you're on the NavMap, all you can draw is "X"s, lines & circles... Otherwise, sonar can give you a clue, as can radar, although your crew members aren't "qualified" to tell you that kind of info - you'll have to do it yourself, other than in stock the warships' sonar lines are blue, and a merchants are black. Mod can and do change that.

The game will identifiy a grouping of ships based upon the "lead" vessel. Each group has to have a "leader" that is given WayPoints for it to follow so that it can travel from Point A to Point B. All of the other ships of the group are "attached" to the "leader". If the leader is a merchant, then you have a Convoy. If you have a warship as leader, then it's a Task Force.

If you're in Stock, you will get plenty of "reports" that if you pay attention, you will get clues as to where the Task Forces are. If your are in a mod, most of them have maps laying about the boat with route maps on them. Or, you can just go hang around Truk or Rabaul, or Singapore, or Kobe, etc... Just be forewarned that the DD escorts usually have more than enough boom-boom with them, and more skill than the average Convoy jockey...
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Old 09-10-19, 09:55 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skirich View Post
So was that the right move or should I have gone for the carrier?

IMO it depends on the stage of the war...

Early on, taking out carriers would blunt Japanese offensive capability at a time when the USN was barely hanging on... With the luxury of hindsight, IJN BBs were not a factor in the war, and the carriers presented the largest threat.

From 1943 on, sinking merchants does more damage to their war-making capacity as the number of capital ships was reduced and the US Navy strength is coming up to speed to take out the remainder. Sinking merchants and the raw materials inbound to Japan does more to curtail the war the later it is.
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Old 09-10-19, 10:24 PM   #13
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Why not shoot at both?
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Old 09-10-19, 11:11 PM   #14
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Why not shoot at both?

Wasnt an option. I didnt know about the carrier until about 4100 yards out.
I was staged south west of the armada at a 45 degree shot if I waited till the lead ship got to within 4100 yards.


I wanted to use the high speed of the mark 14s.


I was tracking the whole armada for about 15-20 miles via radar submerged at 40 feet to let the radar turn and had a dead shot solution programmed into the tdc, tweaked every so often to get near zero on the largest blip. (Using 3d tdc mod)


I submerged by the time they hit 10 miles out since the destroyers could possibly see me. They were swarming the armada. About 7 or 8 ships circling the battleship so I didnt want the chance to ruin the attack. I figured the biggest blip and the largest ship on the nav map was a battleship and I wanted to take it down.



I waited until about 4600 yards out to take a peek, and while I was tuning the solution the carrier swung around on the far side of the battleship. I froze for a moment and all these calculations started flooding my head to re-tune the solution. I even opened up the necessary devices to start the calculations but the whole bunch was steaming at 12knts. With the attack angle I had and the speed of the armada i quickly realized a new solution would not work since the carrier, on the far side would be shielded by the battleship by the time I got the solution programmed. I dont pause the game to do any of that. Its more realistic that way and I enjoy the challenge.

Besides, by the time I would have a solution the destroyers that were leading would have had a good bead on me.


So I figures, OK, I'll shoot the spread of six, dive to 300 at flank, go under the bunch, come back to periscope and take a shot at the carrier from aft.


So I did that. Good thing for the spread. Between the solution in the PK/TDC, I had 3 out of six hit and the battleship listed to port and went under.
Fast forward and when I surface, I have 3 destroyers on me and the carrier speeding out at 15 knts with a zig zig pattern. No shot.


I went out and around with an attempt to do an end around and take another shot, but the destroyers kept pushing me farther and farther north of the armada, and by the time they stopped their patterns the carrier was off my radar and I lost it. I tried following the destroyers and even put up some plots on the map to search but they boogied off at 20+ knts while was pushing 10 under water and coming up on 25% battery.
If I did meet up with the group I would be toast under water with that little battery and 7 destroyers to dance with.



I spent the next week in game time looking for it ignoring all the juicy targets, but never found it.


I was lucky I guess to get that first try. I was parked in the luzon straights about to hit a tanker when I got that armada blip on the radar.
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Old 09-11-19, 07:29 PM   #15
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Hm, my targeting priorities are:
-invasion transports
-CVs
-BBs
-CVEs
-Takao class CAs
-Large Modern Tankers
-everything else

Those early-war invasion transports are miniscule but so very satisfying to catch in a surface battle during the monsoon.


CVEs lack the offensive punch of the CVs, so BBs are preferred (Samar, of course, is always in the back of my mind)


Not sure where the Huge European Liner would go, but it's almost unique and never in company of the ships above, so it's a moot point.


If the game tracked the number of DDs available, of course I would make attriting them a high priority, but I generally leave them alone. Lately I've found large convoys of 9-10 ships escorted by only 3 DDs; three torps and a little gunnery practice later and the map has been defaced with another thick, black blotch. Unrealistic perhaps, but still fun at this stage.
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