Kreigsmarin Interface U Boat tutorial question

[I'm goin' down]

I have read the tutorial. I understand how you use the AobF Wheel to calculate speed, range and Aob. But then Kasmaronov tries to explain intercepting the target and loses me.

I have copied the entire portion that I do not understand. The section dealing with the 180 Aob is particularly confusing. If someone can explian it, I would be very grateful.

Here it is. The pictures were deleted when I copied it.

I promised to show how to macth a course with a target. I’ll even throw a better one and show you how to intercept at specific angles fast. First you need to find the AOB. We’ve just found that our Bismark has an AOB of 110 right? He’s also doing 11 knots so we can overtake him easily. But where to turn to move along it’s course. We won’t use the map for this one, we’ll use the TDC. First, let’s input the AOB:
First, click on the TDC Autoupdate button so that it unlits. Then enter the AOB. In this image you can see I’ve entered an AOB of 109 degrees (the little small red 9 next to the green 1). Whatever, I’ll keep it as it is. Now click the TDC Autoupdate button so that it lights up again.

Now, as you move the periscope, keep looking at the AOB dial. Move it until it reaches 180. (Query: should this be 108 rather than 180?)The Bearing dial will also move with it. This means that your 108 bearing is actually pointing at the true course of the target.

Press the “Set Course to Bearing” Key ( ‘=’ default key).

Remember when I told you that our Bismark was going straight south? Now so are we. But what if we move alogside our Bismark, have overpassed it and want to intercept it at a specific intercept angle?


Let’s say that the target is at our 120 bearing. A quick math would say that the target’s AOB should be 60. But look:

Why is it 170? Simple: because the AOB dial doesn’t take into account YOUR course changes. Let’s fix that.
1. Point your Periscope at 000.
2. Set the AOB to 180 degrees. Why 180? Just imagine that since you’re going along a line parralel to the target, you’re actually right behind him. Of course you’ll be stearing at his proppelers, so the AOB will be 180.
Now if we move our periscope back on target we get what we wanted:

So just remember: Every time you set course to a specific X intercept angle (in our case it’s a 180 degree “interceptum ad infinitum”), move your scope to 000 and put the X for AOB. That way, as long as you keep the new course, when you’ll look at the target you’ll see a correct AOB. Now that we want to intercept at 90 degrees we again move the periscope until we see an aob of 90. Which should be around the bearing… uhmm… 90… It makes sense. But what’s nice is that this exact procedure applies to any situation. So to recap:
1. You spot a target closing and find an aob for it.
2. You enter the aob in the TDC
3. You move the scope until the AOB turns into the intercept angle you want X:
o If X is 180 then you’re matching course with the target
4. Without even looking at the compass or the nav map, you set the course for that bearing using the ‘=’ key.
5. After confirmation of the new course you move the periscope to 000 and reinput the X aob.
6. After you settle on your new course, as long as you and the target don’t change course, you’ll have a correct AOB already in the TDC. When the ship will pas right in front of you, it will have the X AOB that you were looking for. As the ship gets closer you can always adjust the AOB based on improved visibility and start again from step 1 to move again to the intercept course you wanted.
Now let me show you another nice trick. This works with ANY intercept angle and at ANY range as long as you shoot at 000 gyroangle. What is deadly important is that you calculate the speed and AOB very well. For this reason it’s good practice to use 90 degree intercept angles. Why? First of all, between 110 and 80 AOB it doesn’t really matter how big your error is. Second, as the target approaches, you’ll have a nice side view of it to calculate the speed. And third, the torpedoes have a smaller chance to dud. I usually calculate the speed when the target is at 45/315 degrees and, if she’s slow enough, again as she closes. So let’s take our Bismark again…

I’ve intercepted at 90 degrees but after a few minutes she decided to change course. I take a reading again and see it has a an AOB of 60, at a bearing of 40. I move the Periscope to a bearing of 000 and check the AOB. It’s at 100. So the ship will have an AOB of 100 degrees as it passes in front of me. That’s quite ok for impact pistols. I could adjust my course but nevermind. The ship is still going at 11 knots. So I’ll input the data in the TDC. Now let’s look at the Gyro.

BTW, sorry about these pages, lots of gaps. So for a bearing of 000, we have an aob of 100 and a speed of 11 knots. The gyro is 336.5 (love the vernier right gyro dial  ). Now move the Periscope until the Gyro becomes 000.

In our case, that should be at bearing 020. Now, just for fun… Let’s play with the range dial:


Range=10.000 meters


Range= 300 meters.

To understand, the gyro has moved from 359.99 to 000.02.
So relax, you don’t need to calculate the range anymore. So, to recap:
1. Calculate the AOB and speed and enter them correctly in the TDC (do so while you’re locked on target).
2. Move the periscope at 000 to check that the AOB there is between 60 and 120. Othwerwise your torpedoes will bounce off.
3. Move the periscope untill you get a 000 Gyroangle.
4. Now either
- Wait there for the ship to pass and shoot when the juicy part is dead in the middle of the scope (altough you might miss the intended part because torpedoes take a few seconds to get to speed, so aim just before it)
- Turn the autotdc off an… nevermind, this is useless now….
- Lock on the ship and watch the gyro slowly going to 000. When it reaches zero, LOS!
So, as you see, there’s no need to keep a PERFECT 90 degree intercept course. If you’ve settled on a course and then, as the ship moves in, you realize that your aob estimate was off by up to 20 degrees, let it be so. You have the new AOB, you have the speed, just keep a 000 gyro and you’re fine. As a good practice, calculate the range if you have time. You might think that it’s useless but not only can you see when the torpedo will impact, you can also counteract the errors in speed and AOB calculations.

Good luck. I am totally lost on this explanation.

[I'm goin' down]

No one answered my first post. Now that karamozovnew is back, perhaps he can answer the bolded question.

The rest of the portion of the tutorial quoted below the bolded portion will take some work, and I am in no particular hurry.

[I'm goin' down]

What are you talking about? I copied a portion of the KIUB tutorial written by Karamozonew (spell?) I did not understand a portion of it, which I quoted above, as I stated in the thread. I have no idea what you are addressing unless you are saying that you do not use his method. That is fine, but it does not respond to my post or his tutorial. I am trying to figure out how to use KIUB mod.

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Now, as you move the periscope, keep looking at the AOB dial. Move it until it reaches 180. (Query: should this be 108 rather than 180?)

No, in this example you're dealing with a ship which you need to overtake. The best way to do this would be to travel parallel to it for a while until it's way behind and then do a 90 degree turn. You can then sit there and wait for your target to close in. Your confusion was created by a strange coincidence. In the example, the target's AOB was 110, I entered about 109 into the dial. And it just happened that turning to my 108 bearing (meaning: altering my course 108 degrees to the right) put me into a parallel course with the target. And the AOB and Bearing dials are linked in such a way that 0 AOB means "parallel but opposite tracks (not useful)" and 180 AOB means "parallel tracks (similar headings)". Imagine it as looking at your target's ass or it seeing you right behind her.

To go parallel with your target just by eyeballing its AOB, without going into the map screen all you need to do is:
1. correctly enter the AOB and then reenable Autoupdate otherwise moving the periscope will not update the AOB dial.
2. move your periscope left or right and keep looking at the AOB dial. When the AOB dial shows 180 degrees stop the periscope.
3. Press the "set heading to view" to turn "into" that bearing.

I hope that clears it up.

[I'm goin' down]

I assume that when you activate to Aob yohit the button and turn on the light? Is that the same as the PK for American boats? When you initially enter Aob don't you have to hit the button and turn on the light. If so, why do you have to turn it on a second time? (You can see that I am unfamiliar with the mod!)

I sank the moving target at Sub school, but I did it by firing as it approached 0 degrees. I am not sure I was tracking the target as the gyro angle was stationary and not moving. So, I think I was pointing and shooting. I will try again, but I need to have a conceptual breakthrough so I understand why things are happening before I set sail on a campaign.

Thanks for your reply.

[karamazovnew]

No, it's not like the PK. On german subs you can't input data into the TDC unless you turn off Autoupdate. Actually what Autoupdate does is to link the periscope movement with the bearing dial on the TDC. That dial is at the same time linked to the AOB, Inpact angle and Gyro dials. So:
Autopdate OFF: you can input data, but if you move the periscope nothing moves on the TDC
Autoupdate ON: You can't input data but if you move the periscope you'll see other dials turning as well, plus you'll hear a clicky noise.
One thing to note (and written in the tutorial) is that if you move the periscope while in the Autoupdate OFF mode, when you turn it ON again, the Bearing dial will simply jump to the real value but without updating the AOB dial, thus breaking the solution. So don't move your periscope in Autoupdate OFF mode... ever.

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

No, it's not like the PK. On german subs you can't input data into the TDC unless you turn off Autoupdate. Actually what Autoupdate does is to link the periscope movement with the bearing dial on the TDC. That dial is at the same time linked to the AOB, Inpact angle and Gyro dials. So:
Autopdate OFF: you can input data, but if you move the periscope nothing moves on the TDC
Autoupdate ON: You can't input data but if you move the periscope you'll see other dials turning as well, plus you'll hear a clicky noise.
One thing to note (and written in the tutorial) is that if you move the periscope while in the Autoupdate OFF mode, when you turn it ON again, the Bearing dial will simply jump to the real value but without updating the AOB dial, thus breaking the solution. So don't move your periscope in Autoupdate OFF mode... ever.

Thanks for that answer. It makes a lot of sense. If you do turn off auto update, I assume you have to recalulate range and Aob? That would seem to make sense. Speed was established the first time, so that is not affected.

Next issue. I am playing with map contacts enabled. The course of the ship in the sub school tutorial mission is noted on the target icon on the Nav Map. If map contacts are disabled, how to you establish course? ( In PTO, by comparison, you can use the 3D TDC radar mod to establish course via plotting the radar readings.)

Also, in the sub school tutorial mission I have not been able to get hydrophone readings on the target. Maybe this is a bug in the tutorial. I assume in missions, you can get bearings of targets from hydrophone readings. Is that correct?

[joegrundman]

hey karamazovnew,

nice to see you around

did you ever try linking the aobf to a type 70 dial (at least i think it's that number) so that it could be turned directly from the stadimeter?

joe

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

If you do turn off auto update, I assume you have to recalulate range and Aob?

If map contacts are disabled, how to you establish course?

Also, in the sub school tutorial mission I have not been able to get hydrophone readings on the target. Maybe this is a bug in the tutorial. I assume in missions, you can get bearings of targets from hydrophone readings. Is that correct?

You don't need to recalculate. Remember that once you know the target's AOB you can quickly establish an intercept course by the method described before. In that case you set up a 180 degrees "intercept" course, meaning a parallel one. If however you used 90 degrees instead, you'd be on a 90 degrees intercept course. So, if at any time during your approach you move the periscope by mistake while your autoupdate is OFF, even if you break the AOB, you can quickly reestablish the correct AOB by doing this:
1. move your periscope straight ahead (by pressing the "set view to heading" key)
2. Autoupdate OFF so you can change the AOB
3. in the AOB enter your intercept course value (pay attention to set it correctly port or starboard)
4. turn autoupdate ON again.
Now when you move the periscope over your target you'll be able to see that the AOB is correct. Why? I already explained in the tutorial that:
Intercept Angle = Sub's Course - Target's Course
Intercept Angle = Bearing + AOB
So as long as you and the target don't change course, by zeroing your bearing what you did was: Intercept Angle = AOB
Now, as you move the periscope, the Bearing dial automatically moves the AOB dial to maintain that relation.

I don't understand why you'd need to use the map to establish the target's course. By using your TDC only, you can work in a relative environment, never even looking at your heading.
As for the Hydrophone, my technique depends on you being able to see your target, there are other tutorials that deal with hydrophone hunting. But it is a fact that SH4 and SH5 have big problems with the hydrophone. Even if you can hear a target, sometimes the sonarguy never reports them.

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

hey karamazovnew,

nice to see you around

did you ever try linking the aobf to a type 70 dial (at least i think it's that number) so that it could be turned directly from the stadimeter?

joe

Yeap, I did... At first I even hoped to be able to move a "ship height" cursor because there was also a dial for the mast height, unfortunately that was unusable too. Maybe they work in SH5, haven't kept up to date with it.

you can try it too, the dial is this one:

[Dial129]
Name=AOBF_Visible
Type=42; DIAL_TGT_ANG_ON_BOW
Dial=0x260EF022
CrtVal=0x260EF021
NewVal=0x0
DialVal=-180,180
RealVal=-180,180; degrees
Circular=Yes

The AOBF sits in the "old" AOB page on the notepad. Because of weird coding, the temp speed and range don't work outside their pages. Fortunately I managed to move the stadimeter button outside the range page and into the main notepad page. Unlike SH3, in SH4 they added the selective Uboat - USfleet Boat interface by hard code. It checks every page and loads different groups or even different bitmaps for objects depending on which side you play. That's why my interface never affected the US interface. However if you move any object outside its original page or even group, the game refuses to load. I remember trying different ways to add functionality to the AOBF wheel, inspired by the way the range dial moves automatically when you move the US stadimeter. None worked. Took me two weeks of frustration to actually make the AOBF work as it is.

[joegrundman]

sad, but quite an achievement to succeed as you have done anyway!

it's a very nice interface.

So are you going to get involved in SH5 now? Even if the dials don't work it can all be done in python, i'm sure

i don't actually have sh5. my laptop runs sh4 on only medium specs so not sure it's worth getting sh5

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

You don't need to recalculate. Remember that once you know the target's AOB you can quickly establish an intercept course by the method described before. In that case you set up a 180 degrees "intercept" course, meaning a parallel one. If however you used 90 degrees instead, you'd be on a 90 degrees intercept course. So, if at any time during your approach you move the periscope by mistake while your autoupdate is OFF, even if you break the AOB, you can quickly reestablish the correct AOB by doing this:
1. move your periscope straight ahead (by pressing the "set view to heading" key)
2. Autoupdate OFF so you can change the AOB
3. in the AOB enter your intercept course value (pay attention to set it correctly port or starboard)
4. turn autoupdate ON again.
Now when you move the periscope over your target you'll be able to see that the AOB is correct. Why? I already explained in the tutorial that:
Intercept Angle = Sub's Course - Target's Course
Intercept Angle = Bearing + AOB
So as long as you and the target don't change course, by zeroing your bearing what you did was: Intercept Angle = AOB
Now, as you move the periscope, the Bearing dial automatically moves the AOB dial to maintain that relation.

I don't understand why you'd need to use the map to establish the target's course. By using your TDC only, you can work in a relative environment, never even looking at your heading.
As for the Hydrophone, my technique depends on you being able to see your target, there are other tutorials that deal with hydrophone hunting. But it is a fact that SH4 and SH5 have big problems with the hydrophone. Even if you can hear a target, sometimes the sonarguy never reports them.

Here is what I think you are telling us:

1. Get target speed. The preferred way is using the stop watch as it passes the bow of the boat. Can you calculate speed accurate when it crosses the scope at another angle, say 45 degrees, if your boat is stopped? It seems that if you calculate the target's speed when it crosses the zero bearing of your scope, you will have to reposition you boat to make an attack run with an Aob of 90 degrees.
2. How do we establish the target's course with map contacts diabled? Is it established by using the Aob obtained from the KIUB interface?
3. If the target is moving away, turn off the TDC and reset the Aob to 180 degrees to follow (parallel) the target and overtake it. Zero out the scope by hitting the = key? Then reactivate the TDC.
4. When you overtake the target or change course to intercept at 90 degrees, turn off the TDC, reset the Aob to 90 degrees to the correct port or starboard side of the target, zero the scope by hitting the = key, and reactive the TDC. This should put your boat on an intercept course of 90 degrees? When do you fire topedoes?

I am not sure any of the above is correct. I obviously do not have the whole picture. I do understand how to use the interface to calcualte range, speed and Aob. How I use them on an attack run is another matter. Further, the last sub school tutorial failed, even though the torpedoes looked like they would hit the target, because they all exploded prematurely! Also, there are dials on the periscope screen that are duplicated on the Attack Map. Which do I use? From what I have observed, changing one does not change the other.

[I'm goin' down]

Not having played SH3, I have managed to get lost in the details of ATO and the KIUB interface. The two video tutorials that were recommended by Wilcke are lengthy SH3 and short KIUb videos, so I was ended up trying to pull out useful parts of the SH3 tutorial, which has different tools to enter data, although the interface was similar. The KIUB written tutorial does a good job explaining range, Aob and speed, but after that, it is more difficult for me to follow. Plus, the screen shots in the KIUB written tutorial could be larger and show the full interface on the screen shots for ease of understanding. However, the issue is not how to calculate range, aob, and speed of the target. The KIUB video and written tutorials do an adequeate job in that respect. It is how to put those features together in an attack run using the TDC dials and TDC activation button. I have a similar issue with the torpedoe attack screen and the Attack Screen, which I will raise in the questions below.

Here are most of the questions I have. Some may seem dumb, some may seem obvious, but I have thought about each and think they will enhance some players, myself included, understanding of the mod.

First, how does one plot target course without map contacts enabled? If you have to plot Aob and the target's range, it can be done based upon the method described in the KIUB written tutorial for finding range and Aob. However, one will need multiple plots of Aob and range, so when the plots are connected the compass tool can be utilized to determine the target's course. Is this the only way, and is this method correct.

Second, I understand you can plot a target's speed as it crosses the periscope at a 0 bearing. But can you plot a target's speed accurately at any bearing if your boat is stationary, and what is the disadvantage, if any, of plotting speed at other than a zero bearing?

Third, what is the deal with the TDC button? (See below for the context of this question.)

Fourth, assume you are paralleling the target after getting its speed and course, where does one set the Aob for an attack run? I assume it is set at 90 degrees port or starboard, as the case may be. Once you change course to intercept do you have to deactivate and reactive the TDC button and if you do, what is the reason for having to do so? (this relates to the thrid question)? From what I have read, if you want to intercept at 90 degrees Aob, move the Aob to 90 degrees (port or starboard, as is appropriate), move the scope to 90 degrees, and hit the = key to change the boat's heading to view. I will recheck the tutorial.

Fifth, what happens if you have the TDC button activated on the Attack Screen, but the TDC button is deactivated on Periscope screen and vice versa? Is there a relationship between the button on the Attack Screen and Periscope screen? Must both be activated? And if only one is required to be activated, does it matter whch one? (This relates to the thrid question.) I assume when the light is activated the TDC is in operation.

Sixth, assume the TDC light is activated on the Periscope Screen. You swivel the periscope from 20 to 40 degrees. I assume with the bearing and Aob dials move new settings as the periscoped is swiveled (I will check this in a few minutes). Is something happening or is about ready to happen with the TDC settings. If the TDC light is activated, how do you enter the new settings shown on the periscope screen, or are they entered automatically? Do you have to deactivate the TDC light and reactivate it to enter the new settings?

Seventh, I could use some screen shots labelling in English the various dials on both sides of the Periscope screen and on the Attack Map screen, as I do not read German. I can figure out the purpose of some of the dials, but some I have been unable to figure out.

Eighth, what do the two small numbers at the bottom center of the Aob dial mean and how are they used?

Ninth, if you have to parellel a target's course to get into positon for an Intercept, I assume the target will change course if it spots your boat. What is a "safe" range is recommended for paralleling the target so your boat is not spotted? Perhaps 3,000 yds, but that is just an educated guess?

I assume that the players who enjoy ATO have figured out the answers to the above, or at least have the answers to most of them. But I learned the sim from scratch using American boats in the PTO. I have never played the German side, and while I understand much of theory, I am lost on the practicalities, i.e. how to do it? By comparison, SH4 has an abundance of tutorials, written and video, to help one resolve the various issues. Plus it has the Easy Aob, 3D TDC and sonar readings to help you plot and set the target's course with map contacts disabled. I need help with the ATO mod, and I asume if one or two good tutorials explaining the mod are published more players in my position will give it a "shot" (pun intended.) Meanwhile, I stumble along, lost in deep blue sea, looking for a way to come up for air. What has me intriqued is that some posts priase ATO for being one of the best mods out there, and I am up for a challenge.

[karamazovnew]

Wow, that's a lot of questions
Let's see...
Safe distance from target: OM is quite forgiving, but still, 3000m is a very very short distance. I'd keep the target almost touching the horizon, barely visible. And since they're more likely to spot you as you move ahead of them, I usually keep them out of view and check where they are with the hydrophone (manually). WHen you turn parallel to your target, you'll hear a guy say "Aye aye captain, new course XXX". You can maneuver as you want and then get parallel just by entering that course again. And you have the message box just in case you forget it.

Turning 90 degrees: why would you need the TDC for that? If you're on a parallel course, just turn 90 degrees into the target, simple as that. As I said, it's better to refine the AOB solution as the target gets close, nut just rely on a "10km away 5 second estimation" for the entire attack.

Plotting: again, why would you need that? But anyway.... True Bearing = Bearing + Sub's course. You extend a true bearing line from your sub and stop it at the estimated range. Then you use the protractor to create an angle equal to the estimated AOB between that line and the target's course.

Speed: as I already said... stop the sub. There's absolutely no benefit in pointing your sub at the target. You should already be way ahead of the target so you should have time to do that. However, the target's AOB must be at least 45 so you can get a clear view. Or, calculate the speed when it crosses your 045 or 315 bearing. In that case add your speed to what you calculate.

Torpedoes: never ever use electric torpedoes with magnetic detonators. Not until late in the war. They're still way better then the ones we had in SH3, but an electric torpedo with an impact detonator will always do the job.

The small numbers at the center of the AOB dial: arre you sure you've read MY tutorial? Because in that case you'd know they're just numbers of the periscope lines, or "milirads" as I like to call them. While the main reticule had 1 tick every 2 miliradians (the 5'th tick being numbered "10"), the AOB wheel has one tick for each miliradian.

English labels: They're included as an optional in OMEGU, just enable as you would do with any mod.

Autoupdate Button on Attack Map: It does the same thing as clicking the one on the Periscope Screen. The only problem is that if you click it once and then leave the screen, the "blue lit, unlit" behavior of the one on the Attack Periscope will invert. It's just a graphical error and nothing I can fix. All dials work the same way. And yes, even in the Attack Map screen you still need to put Autoupdate OFF to enter data into the TDC.

[I'm goin' down]

I n loaded the English mod. The German has been replaced by English. Thanks.