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Old 01-21-23, 02:45 PM   #9271
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Had a debate with a good friend on FB. She wanted Ukraine to accept the terms Russia had-She want to war to stop..to stop the killing of civilians and military.
She also wanted the war to be stopped to prevent an escalation. She also wanted us to stop sending weapons to Ukraine-Even this to prevent an escalation

As I said to her.

The question is will the war expand whether we support Ukraine or not.
Furthermore I can't support such a demand nor can the Ukrainian and rightfully so...Russia approved the 1991 border after Ukraine had a referendum on independency.

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Old 01-21-23, 03:31 PM   #9272
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Old 01-21-23, 03:34 PM   #9273
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Old 01-21-23, 03:35 PM   #9274
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Old 01-21-23, 03:40 PM   #9275
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Originally Posted by mapuc View Post
Had a debate with a good friend on FB. She wanted Ukraine to accept the terms Russia had-She want to war to stop..to stop the killing of civilians and military.
She also wanted the war to be stopped to prevent an escalation. She also wanted us to stop sending weapons to Ukraine-Even this to prevent an escalation

As I said to her.

The question is will the war expand whether we support Ukraine or not.
Furthermore I can't support such a demand nor can the Ukrainian and rightfully so...Russia approved the 1991 border after Ukraine had a referendum on independency.

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I can only add every civilian, people have the right to defend itself against any invader or authoritarian system that planes to destroy them!
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Old 01-21-23, 03:40 PM   #9276
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White House on Berlin’s position on Leopard: Germany is working on its own process, but Ukrainians have real need for additional tanks right now

Germany is working on its own process for Leopard tanks.

Commenting on the results of the meeting in Ramstein in an interview with "Voice of America", White House Strategic Communications Coordinator for National Security and Defense John Kirby said that in terms of providing tanks to Ukraine, "Germany is going through its own process with regard to Leopard tanks", reports Censor.NЕТ.

"We don't twist arms, we don't push, we don't persuade. We want countries to give what they can, when they can, where they can, and at a size and scale that they are comfortable with. And that is up to Germany to decide," Kirby emphasized.

"We know that Germany is working on its own process for Leopard tanks, which are great tanks, very powerful, and will not require an excessive amount of training from Ukrainians if Germany wants to move in this direction. But this is a key issue. It is a German decision," he said.

He added that Germany has increased its contributions, which it started making at the beginning of the war, and is "one of the world's leading financial donors to Ukraine in terms of financial assistance" and the allies "highly appreciate it."

"We believe that it is important that every nation that can support Ukraine in its defense does so now. One of the critical needs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine this winter and probably in the spring will be armored vehicles. Because of the kind of fighting they are doing in the Donbas, which could include tanks, but not necessarily, although the Ukrainians have a real need for more tanks," Kirby said. Source: https://censor.net/en/n3394844

Melnyk to German Defense Minister Pistorius: What else do you need to check? Supply tanks

Deputy Foreign Minister and Ambassador to Germany Andriy Melnyk called on German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius to start supplying Ukraine with German-made Leopard 2 tanks.

He wrote about this on Twitter, Censor.NET reports.

On January 20, after the meeting in Ramstein, Pistorius announced that the allies had not reached a decision on the transfer of Leopard tanks to Ukraine. But he instructed to carry out an audit of the stocks of these tanks in case of a possible supply.

At the same time, Germany has not yet given permission for re-export to other allies who are ready to supply their Leopard 2 to Ukraine.

"What else needs to be checked, Herr Pistorius? Supply it! It's a pity that Svitlofor (the ruling coalition of the Federal Republic of Germany. - Ed.) is presenting itself like this," wrote Melnyk. Source: https://censor.net/en/n3394827

Head of defense committee of Bundestag Zimmerman criticized Scholz for decision not to provide tanks to Ukraine

The head of the defense committee of the Bundestag, Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmerman, criticized the Chancellor of Germany, Olaf Scholz, for refusing to grant permission for the transfer of tanks to Ukraine.

This is reported by Censor.NET with reference to the publication ZDF.

As Strack-Zimmerman noted, because of Scholz's position regarding the transfer of tanks, one gets the impression that Germany is not helping Ukraine in the war with the Russian Federation.

"History is looking at us, and Germany, unfortunately, has once again demonstrated its inability. The way German Chancellor Olaf Scholz communicates on this topic with the public is simply a disaster. On the one hand, Germany provides large-scale aid to Ukraine, but due to the lack of a decision on battle tanks it creates a different impression," Strack-Zimmerman said.

She emphasized the need to grant permission to Germany's partners to transfer tanks to Ukraine.

"There are almost 3,000 Leopard 2 tanks in Europe. Even if you put only a small number of them, it would be a real sign," Strack-Zimmermann is convinced. Source: https://censor.net/en/n3394806
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Old 01-21-23, 03:45 PM   #9277
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Putin, stop being ridiculous



"Don't you understand the circumstances we are in?"
Umm yes a three-days special operation to take Kyiv
Does he really wonder why anyone of his Mafia is lying to him?
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Old 01-21-23, 04:19 PM   #9278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbuna View Post
Rumour has it that this man was recently put on the German govenrment's non-welcome list.

Thats the best way to put it, if I may lend his woirds: the Germans do not want to deter Pution form esclarting into the nuclear taboo, instead the germans want to deter themsleves from standing in Russia's way too much. Babble-Olaf is fully in Putin's thrall.
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Old 01-21-23, 04:35 PM   #9279
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He’s 70, he’s got one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel. What does he have to lose? He’s afraid his legacy will be the man who destroyed Russia if he doesn’t get his way before he dies.
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Old 01-22-23, 06:03 AM   #9280
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Leopard tank dilemma as Germany tears itself in two over Ukraine

For the past week, all eyes have been on Germany. Would Berlin allow its allies to send German-made Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine? The answer could be decisive for the outcome of Putin’s genocidal war.

Yet the only answer that new German Defence Minister, Boris Pistorius, could give was “maybe”. He could not say when a decision would be made on the tanks, he told Friday’s meeting of 50 defence ministers at the US airbase in Ramstein.

Pistorius said he had ordered an inventory of Leopard 2 tanks so that he could act immediately if a green light came from his government. “I am very sure that there will be a decision in the short term,” he said. However, he admitted: “I don’t know how the decision will look.”

Pistorius’s shilly-shallying was in defiance of Volodymyr Zelensky, who had earlier appealed to the meeting to “speed up” on the question on tanks, but also US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin.

“This is not a moment to slow down,” General Austin said. “It’s a time to dig deeper. The Ukrainian people are watching us. History is watching us.”

At a press conference later, he refused to comment on Berlin’s refusal to release its Leopards.

The wrangling over tanks for Ukraine is emblematic of the identity crisis gripping Berlin as Germany shifts from decades of relative pacifism to a war-ready footing. German Chancellor Olaf Scholz is talking the talk, but struggling when it comes to walking the walk.

Clearly, neither Austin, nor the other NATO defence ministers, could break the deadlock on tanks. Germany seems determined to ignore appeals not only from Ukraine but from the entire Western world. The indecision of Scholz, it seems, is final. Does he even know there’s a war on?

Scholz has not only refused to give German Leopard 2s to Kyiv, but has so far refused permission for any of the 2,000 German-made Leopards owned by other NATO members to be sent. Those who ignore this contractual obligation put future military trade deals with Berlin at risk.

This prospect does not trouble Poland’s Mateusz Morawiecki, whose relations with Scholz are in deep freeze anyway. The Polish PM has dismissed the German veto as irrelevant and threatened to send 14 Polish Leopards to Kyiv.

The spectacle of Germany stymying not only Ukraine but its allies too is deeply damaging, both diplomatically and morally. Olaf Scholz doesn’t seem to care that Germany is now seen as the sausage dog in the manger.

Despite the fiasco in Ramstein, a blast of realpolitik is blowing through Berlin. Almost a year ago Putin’s onslaught on Ukraine forced Germany to rethink its role as the West’s leading “civilian power”.

Today, the debate has moved on from the days when Scholz seemed to dither about taking sides at all. But the painfully slow shift to a war footing is tearing the country — and its centre-Left coalition — in two.

“We are living through a watershed era (Zeitenwende),” Chancellor Olaf Scholz told his petrified compatriots within 48 hours of the invasion last February. “The issue at the heart of this is whether power is allowed to prevail over the law… whether we have it in us to keep warmongers like Putin in check. And that requires strength of our own.”

This sounded like fighting talk. Yet Scholz’s much-vaunted Zeitenwende has bitterly disappointed the Ukrainians. Early in the conflict, Volodymyr Zelensky told the German Parliament that a new Berlin Wall had been erected in his country. By now it is clear that the German government has no desire to tear down that wall, as long as the Germans are on the right side of it.

What Ukrainians thought they heard from Scholz last February was a commitment to help them to turn the tables on the Russian invaders. Instead, the Zeitenwende turned out to be yet another chapter in the endless debate about German identity that has raged since 1945 — fascinating for pundits and academics, but hardly relevant to a people fighting for their lives.

Now, after eleven months and up to quarter of a million dead on both sides, the Ukrainians have been disappointed by the Germans yet again.

The phenomenon that has prevented Scholz from authorising the use of Leopards has already acquired a characteristically German moniker: “escalation angst” (Angst vor der Eskalation). This term denotes the fear that military assistance to Ukraine risks “provoking” Russian escalation of the war, potentially including the use of nuclear weapons — a fear shared by a majority of the public in the Federal Republic.

The latest poll shows that 46pc of Germans oppose sending Leopard 2s to Ukraine, with 43 per cent in favour.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...03539e11a23bf4
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Old 01-22-23, 06:06 AM   #9281
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Ukraine war: Zelensky adviser says West’s 'indecision' is killing Ukrainians

An adviser to President Volodymyr Zelensky has said that the West's "indecision" over sending extra weapons to Ukraine is "killing more of our people".

"Every day of delay is the death of Ukrainians," Mykhailo Podolyak wrote on Twitter.

His remarks come after Ukraine's defence minister said he had a "frank discussion" with his German counterpart about German Leopard 2 tanks, which Kyiv is urgently requesting to confront Russian armour.

Germany has insisted that it is not blocking the delivery of German-made Leopard tanks, which other countries want to send.

"We had a frank discussion on Leopards 2. To be continued," Oleksii Reznikov said after meeting Western allies on Friday.

The meeting at Ramstein Air Base in Germany brought an agreement to supply more armoured vehicles, air defence systems and ammunition.

On Saturday, an adviser to Mr Reznikov told the BBC that Nato countries committed to helping Ukraine need to be several steps ahead of the enemy.

Yuriy Sak said that the West needed to redefine what it meant to stand with Ukraine - and that it did not simply mean stabilising Ukraine's front line.

"To be able to defend our land means to be able to de-occupy our land, to liberate our territories and for this we need heavy tanks, for this we need armoured vehicles," he said.

The Leopard 2 is seen as a potential game-changer for Ukraine, as it is easy to maintain and designed specifically to compete with the Russian T-90 tanks, which are being used in the invasion.

German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius said opinions remained divided over supplying Leopards, and he denied that Berlin was blocking such a move.

Under German export laws, other countries who want to supply Leopards - like Poland and Finland - are unable to do so until Berlin gives the all-clear.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky praised the Nato partners for their military assistance, but said "we will still have to fight for the supply of modern tanks".

"Every day we make it more obvious that there is no alternative, that a decision about tanks must be made."

Ukraine's current tanks are mostly old Soviet models, often outnumbered and outgunned by Russian firepower.

More than 2,000 Leopards are sitting in warehouses all over Europe. President Zelensky believes about 300 of them could help to defeat Russia.

Mr Pistorius said Berlin was prepared to move quickly if there was consensus among allies, though he could not say when a decision on the tanks might be made.

Germany has found itself in a deadlock due to several factors including international diplomacy and the legacy of World War Two.

It used to have a policy of not sending arms to conflict zones, but that was reversed following Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.

Late last year, Nato chief Jens Stoltenberg said Germany was now "among the allies providing most military, financial and humanitarian aid to Ukraine", by supplying artillery, air defence systems and Marder infantry fighting vehicles.

But Germany is reluctant to send Leopards unless they are part of a wider Nato package that preferably includes America's powerful M1 Abrams tanks. The US has rejected this, saying the Abrams tanks are impractical for Ukraine's forces because they are difficult and expensive to maintain.

Regardless, there has been pressure in some corners for the US to send its tanks, and to persuade Germany to do the same.

US Defence Secretary Lloyd Austin denied that Berlin was waiting for the US to make the first move. "This notion of unlocking - in my mind it's not an issue," he said after Friday's meeting of 54 countries at Ramstein Air Base.

Germany also remains haunted by the Nazi-era devastation it caused in World War Two, and Chancellor Olaf Scholz has been cautious about having anything to do with an escalation in Ukraine.

A leading opposition Christian Democrat (CDU) politician in Germany, Johann Wadephul, condemned the government's "policy of refusal" on the Leopards, saying it would affect Germany's international reputation. "What is Scholz waiting for?" he asked.

Poland's Foreign Minister Zbigniew Rau also criticised Germany's reluctance.

"Arming Ukraine in order to repel the Russian aggression is not some kind of decision-making exercise. Ukrainian blood is shed for real. This is the price of hesitation over Leopard deliveries. We need action, now," he tweeted.

Western countries have committed billions in other weaponry - but without Germany's commitment on tanks, it was not the result Ukraine was hoping for.

Other countries have committed to sending tanks, including the UK, which will send 14 Challenger 2s.

The US announced fresh support worth more than $2.5bn (£2bn) this week, including armoured vehicles.

The Pentagon promised an extra 59 Bradley armoured vehicles, 90 Stryker personnel carriers and Avenger air defence systems, among other supplies.

Nine European nations have also promised their own weapon support after meeting in Estonia on Thursday.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64355839
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Old 01-22-23, 06:11 AM   #9282
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Old 01-22-23, 06:32 AM   #9283
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Telegraph wrote:

"Poland’s bravery has humiliated Germany

Despite having more to fear from Putin, Poland has done what Germany should have done and promised to. It's becoming a military superpower

Kyiv had hoped for a clear green light from Germany at the Ukraine Defence Contact Group meeting at Ramstein air base on Friday to provide them with Leopard 2 battle tanks. Instead, the new German defence minister, Boris Pistorius, equivocated all day, at one stage saying it could take a month to reach a decision.

That sort of procrastination might be acceptable in peace time, but this is a war in which every day counts. We’re almost one year into the most deadly conflict in Europe since 1945 and Germany has been an unreliable partner since the start. First, they only wanted to send 5000 helmets while other countries quickly dispatched lethal weapons; now they have been dithering over tanks, dividing NATO, putting all of the West in a difficult position and – worst of all – jeopardising Ukraine’s war effort.

Poland leads a group of Western countries that want to send in some of the Leopards they bought from Germany. Technically they need permission from Berlin to do so. Yet such is the strength of feeling that the Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said on Thursday that this country may send the German-made tanks to Kyiv without this approval. "Consent is a secondary issue here," he remarked.

The contrast between Warsaw and Berlin could not be greater. Poland has done exactly what Germany should have done and promised to do. It's becoming a European military superpower: with a far smaller GDP it already has more tanks and howitzers than Germany and is on course to have a much larger army, with a target of 300,000 troops by 2035, compared with Germany’s current 170,000 which shows little realistic signs of increasing any time soon. In fact, the German chancellor is already backtracking on promises he made in the wake of Putin’s invasion, admitting last month that his intention to meet NATO’s minimum 2% of GDP defence spend starting this year is unlikely to be achieved until 2025 at the earliest.

The Poles have also embarrassed Germany with their fearlessness. On paper, due to its history in the Soviet Union and geographical proximity to Ukraine and Russia, Poland has far more to fear from Russia than Germany. Yet within weeks of Putin’s invasion Warsaw had sent more than 200 Soviet-era T72 tanks to Ukraine as well as self-propelled howitzers and rocket launchers. Even in the face of Russia’s subsequent ferocious attacks against its neighbour, Germany continues to quiver at the prospect of provoking Putin, with Scholz telling US lawmakers at Davos this week that he fears blowback from the “escalation” that could ensue from Germany alone allowing modern Western tanks into Ukraine.

This makes no sense. Britain is about to deploy a squadron of Challenger 2 battle tanks and Germany itself has already deployed highly potent artillery that has done severe damage to Russian forces, as well as promising Marder infantry fighting vehicles – a “light tank” that can pretty much pack the punch of a main battle tank with its guided missiles. It may be counter-intuitive, but anyone who understands a dictator’s mind knows that weakness, not strength, provokes aggression, and giving Ukraine the means to inflict greater damage on Putin is less, not more, likely to encourage him to widen the war.

Germany’s other excuse is its past. Vice chancellor Robert Habeck says: “You know our history, and we are a little bit more reluctant there for understandable reasons.” This is no more than another pretext for inaction driven by fear. There is simply no comparison between Germany hurling tank armies against Russia in a war of aggression in 1941 and agreeing for its tanks to be sent to defend a European ally under vicious assault 80 years later. Germany broke its post-World War 2 taboo on deploying combat forces in Kosovo in 1991 and Afghanistan in 2002 and Leopard tanks operated by Denmark saw combat against Bosnian Serb forces in 1994.

In any case, now is not the time for equivocation. To resist Russia’s imminent offensive, and to retake territory already lost to Moscow, Ukraine’s most burning need is for tanks. A significant tank force could make the difference between victory and defeat for Ukraine, both physically and psychologically, as it fights against massed Russian armour. Kyiv does not have the luxury of time as the Russian steamroller gathers pace. Deploying tanks is not something that happens over night. Machines have to be prepared and transported, crews have to be trained and exercised, the immense logistics backup has to be put in place.

Britain has taken “action this day”, as Churchill would have put it, by its decision to send Challenger tanks to Ukraine, while Germany has shown its true colours at Ramstein. Poland – plus Lithuania, Finland, Denmark and the other countries willing to dispatch their Leopards to the fight – should not wait another month to see whether Berlin is willing to authorise their release. They should send them now and worry about the repercussions from Berlin later."
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Old 01-22-23, 06:57 AM   #9284
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The real character of modern Germany has been revealed. I think it has very deep implications for the role of Germany in NATO, in NATO operations, and its roles of being the "spearhead" of the very fast rapid reaciton force (which it is not really even capable to fill militarily, and Germany'S proposed role as "guarantor" of safety for Kyiv, and so forth. Germany is not only not capable by military ability for fulfilling that role, - it's mental allegiance must be questioned, too, which is maybe even more decisive.

The Germans are everbyody else's problem inside NATO. Their value for and loyalty to the alliance is questionable. The intel services and the political structure up to decision maker-level are Russian infiltrated.

If the Americans would not have had invested already so very much in military infrastructure and logistics and headquarters in Germany, I am quite certain they already would have bailed out. I would, if I were them.

"Dont trust the Germans."


I guess I have become a stranger to the country I live in. And I observe the political and ideology-driven changes over here with growing disgust, even horror.
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Old 01-22-23, 07:16 AM   #9285
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FOCUS:
--------------------------
Internationally, Chancellor Olaf Scholz's (SPD) continued hesitation over the delivery of Leopard tanks to Ukraine is being harshly criticised. Scholz's decision is now also said to be putting an unusually heavy strain on relations with the USA. As reported by the "Süddeutsche Zeitung", the US Secretary of Defence, Lloyd Austin, is said to have got into a heated exchange of words with the Chancellor's Office Minister, Wolfgang Schmidt, on the fringes of the Ramstein Conference. The encounter was "tense", according to an internal report from American government circles.

Austin was already on his way to Germany when the news reached him that Scholz was publicly making his deliveries to Ukraine dependent on the USA. According to media reports, Scholz said in a telephone conversation with US President Biden that he would only deliver Leopard 2 tanks if the USA in turn sent Abrams battle tanks. According to the "SZ", US Security Advisor Jake Sullivan is said to have called Scholz's foreign policy advisor, Jens Plötner, and protested vehemently and shouting. The US government has been rejecting such a connection between the deliveries since October, as the relocation and operation of the Abrams tanks would take too long.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
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