The Turkish-Kurdish Dilemma

[Jimbuna]

I know we can all agree that the whole situation is a right mess but whichever side or viewpoint you take there is one question I'm currently thinking and that is.....who will or can ever trust this current US administration again?

I'm now forming the opinion that many top level decisions are changed simply on a whim without any detailed consideration of the potential consequences.

Russia and China must be thrilled that there western opponents appear to be self harming themselves.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I know we can all agree that the whole situation is a right mess but whichever side or viewpoint you take there is one question I'm currently thinking and that is.....who will or can ever trust this current US administration again?

Eh - nobody. And not just this adminbistraitonm but any follow on administrations as well, no matter which party and name. The fission funghus that wa sset free, already ha spenetreated too deep into the basic substance of the whole structure as if it could get cleaned out again. The post-war order of the West, the strogn hegemone in America leading and protecting the alliance in Europe - is dead.

I'm now forming the opinion that many top level decisions are changed simply on a whim without any detailed consideration of the potential consequences.

What took you so long? It has been like this since almost three years. Since all beginning of the little boy's playing session.

Russia and China must be thrilled that there western opponents appear to be self harming themselves.

Putin probably remembersa a quiote form the "A-Team": I love it when a plan works out . China enjoys the benefits for free. Lil' Boy still seems to be convinced that he has trumped China with the recent trade agreement on pork meat. It costs the Chinese nothing to leave him in this illusion while they in fact found a nice way to deal with their homegrown pigs problems this way. Lil' Boy diod not trump them - the Chinese simply adressed a certain homegrown problem of theirs: between 25 and 55% of their pigs hads to be culled due top an epidmay, and pork meat is a basic food in China. Trump could have demanded so much more from them!!



If he ever understands that, I bet money on that he will start to twitter about that he suddenly discovered what a good-hearted man he was, that nobody in the world has a better heart than he has, and that he felt like wanting to help China out. LOL

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I know we can all agree that the whole situation is a right mess but whichever side or viewpoint you take there is one question I'm currently thinking and that is.....who will or can ever trust this current US administration again?

I'm now forming the opinion that many top level decisions are changed simply on a whim without any detailed consideration of the potential consequences.

Russia and China must be thrilled that there western opponents appear to be self harming themselves.

#1. He said he was going to this during his campaign for president. If someone didn't it see it coming they are blind or were not paying attention.

#2. What exactly are we missing out on by not being there if nobody really knows why we were there to begin with? Freedom, democracy, prestige, honor, truth, justice and the American way, or being best buds and bosom buddies with Muslim extremists etc, etc, are not reasons. Its fluff.

[Skybird]

For the third or fpourth time,Rockstar - you stabbed them. It is a difference to pull out in a sorted order, prepare it, installing safeties that your "ally" survives your manouver. Instead, Lil' Boy telephones with Erdoghan, and within hours has his troops almost fleeing from their psooitions, and leave the door wide open for the Turks who did not wait long before srarzting to go on a shooting frenzy and sen ding in their radical fanatic lalies who are as bad as the IS.

Go back to the harbour and have guest you do not want to have any longer leavign there. Do not just throw them intot he coean and watch as the streuggle for their lives and drown and do not dare to tell them " I told you so. You could have seen this coming."

Really, Rockstar. Its cheap. And a stinking foul excuse. Mind you, I said severla times I undertand and even support the pulling out of the US. Years ago I even said you and Europe should not even get in, but leave it to the Russians, but you did not want to leave it to the Russians, you wanted to punish Assad instead, you did not want to leave the prey to the Russians, lecturing them as well by refusing them the reward they planned for. And so you went in. I said: "Leave Syria to the Russians. They have stronger interest there, and they are willign to do the dirty work. They will not fall back from your moral demands."



And this manouver now by the little boy is the sh!tt!est way to pull out again one can imagine. 150-300 thousands on the mkove. Hundreds dead. Torture. Atrocities. Ethnic cleansing. This is your work: you opend the door, your told the Turks: come in, you moved the obstacles aside.


And you cannot mend what you have bend there.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

#1. He said he was going to this during his campaign for president. If someone didn't it see it coming they are blind or were not paying attention.

#2. What exactly are we missing out on by not being there if nobody really knows why we were there to begin with? Freedom, democracy, prestige, honor, truth, justice and the American way, or being best buds and bosom buddies with Muslim extremists etc, etc, are not reasons. Its fluff.

The Endgame in Syria.

The pattern was established well before Donald Trump took office. It will persist after he departs. There is nothing so consistent as American ambivalence toward our superpower status. Most great powers covet hegemony. We hate it. The costs are too high, the demands too stressful.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...game-in-syria/

Trump is getting America out of a country we were never really in. Our presence in Syria was not enough to deter Turkey. One thousand troops do not constitute a tripwire. They are chips in a high-stakes game. Erdogan called the bluff.

Our footprint was light because the last two administrations wanted it that way. That is why criticism of Trump’s policy from left-wing noninterventionists and former Obama officials is ridiculous. Where were they when Assad killed hundreds of thousands of people, when he and Erdogan used migration to Europe as a weapon, when civilians were gassed, when ISIS formed, when Russia moved in? Did they think Syria was peachy keen up until Sunday, October 6? Are we really to take lectures from them on the value of forward presence?

Pete Buttigieg is right to say that what is happening in Syria is a consequence of American withdrawal. But if what’s happening is a betrayal of American values, it’s one Americans voted for.

[Skybird]

Welt am Sonntag writes that NATO found agreement on that if Syria strikes Turkey, Turkey will not get NATO assistance, article 5 will not be activated.

Wonder oh wonder, some logic in politics. At least by words, and by now.


France said it will not station Frnch SAMs in Southern Turkey as originally wa splanned. spain will withdraw its SAMs from there. It can be expected that Turkey thus will speed up the stationing of the Russian S-400 SAM system along the border to Syria.


Germany still acts schizophrenic, making a distinction between wepon deliveries that Turkey can use in the conflict, and wepaons it cannot use in the conflict. How to control that and what the difference between such weapons and material, is after so many years still one of the best kept secrets of the Germans. I have seen German wepaons in Turkey, rifles and vehicles, trucks for the most. But I noticed no characteristic hardware features that would prevent them from being used in the North, West, South or East of Turkey, and being shuttled around. I Tlso never ntoiced any German minitors watching over that the Turks do not do with these equipments like the Germans claim they do not want them to do. - The sad thing is - the Germans do like at least 40 years this way. And all the other weapon deliverers probnaby as well. Good news is that this will end sooner or later: the tehcnolgox transfer to Turkey has allowed thme to mount their own tnak industry, and their first major MBT design is close to enter mass production. They do not need German Leopards anymore. They also build their own rifle production. Anb their own truck prioduction. They plan to do the same with artillery. And Erdoghan no longer hides his nuclear ambitions. Thats where endless European and American appeasement and cowardice towards Turkey has led to. They now want back the Balkan, parts of the Aegean, the gas fields around Cyprus...

[Jimbuna]

Aren't there American nukes stockpiled/stored there already?

IIRC there has been an issue about the Americans wanting to remove them.

[Rockstar]

Why remove the nukes? They have been a treaty ally for over 67 years.



https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/turk...-chief/1613310


Even NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has said, and I quote "Turkey has "legitimate security concerns" ... "no other ally suffered more terrorist attacks," and "no other ally is more exposed to instability, turmoil and violence from the Middle East"

Note the word he used ally

https://www.hudson.org/research/1538...gainst-the-u-s

Why on one hand are we are saying Turkey has legitimate security concerns and on the other get our panties in a wad when they act. On top of that I'd wager we are most likely supplying arms to the YPG and PKK. Brits are still in Syria are they not? Why are they still there? Exactly what in hell is our foreign policy, what are the goals? Anyone? just dont get all teary eyed and tell me its about freedom and democracy or independence for a very small minority group of militant shia muslim Kurds and Trump bad. Im not so much interested in your personal opinion rather Im interested in what your government has told you what your foreign policey is. Its OK to say I dont know 'cause I really dont either LOL

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Aren't there American nukes stockpiled/stored there already?

IIRC there has been an issue about the Americans wanting to remove them.

Yes, I linked to it some days ago. US papers reported the Pentagon indeed mulls plans for emergency evacuations of the 50 nuclear bombs stored at Incirlik. Erdoghan has indicated he might want toi hiujack them, after the oublicatio9n of the Pentagon acivities he said that even if the wepains would be withdranw Tukrey would now start to after its own nukes.

It was thought about repeatedly, but considered to be a too hot topic as if Clinton or Obama seriously pressed for it. But the Rdoghanisation has advanced sinc erthen, and can no longer be ignored. Tukrey is a danger to the region now. And to NATO.


Its way over ten years ago when I predicted that it would be just a question of time before either Turkey or Saudi arabia would embark on getting nuclear arsenals and by that launching a nuclear arms race in the region. Egypot I also listed as a candidate, and of course Syria. And I still say: it will happen. Erdoghan was always my top pick for getting the show started.


No, Rockstar, they are no ally anymore. They are also no democracy anymore. No secular country anymore. You are cherishing a poisenous vicous snake in your bosom. Stoltenberg is a di0plomat, and not the first diplomat making a fool of himself. Thjats his job. Those 67 years of the past - well, they mean nothiugn now. Your coutnry als i not that of 67 years ago anymore, is it? It was a completely different Turkey, a totally diferenbt Turkey that was allowed and urged to sign in to NATO. It was a Turkey were Islam was in enforced hibernation mode. You are not dealign with Atatpürks' heritage anymore. You are now dealing Ersdioghan, and Erdoghan has deleted Atakürk formn Turkish history, and onely babbles about coinquering oarts iof Europe, the Ottoman claims for territory, and ethnic cleansing of Greeks and Austrians.



With allies like this you need no enemies anymore. Its not that they will betray us in the future. THEY ALREADY DO, since years.

[Rockstar]

Diplomat or not just 6 days ago in front of 65th NATO Parliamentary Assembly in London NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said they were. Maybe Turkey has been given the green light to 'neutralize' YPG and PKK terrorists. At the same time world opinion is being directed against Turkey. Should Turkey step over the proverbial line in the sand public opinion is primed for dropping another salvo of freedom bombs but this time on Turkey.


Erdogan is also strongly supported by the friends of Khashoggi a.k.a. the Muslim Brotherhood what else can you expect of him? He's just parroting the brotherhoods mantra "It is the nature of Islam to dominate, not to be dominated, to impose its law on all nations and to extend its power to the entire planet". Not much different than the Kurdish Y.P.G. or P.K.K. shia militants in Syria I suppose. Like I said before this is a war between Islamic factions and their struggle for power. Which side did you say you are supporting?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

You might not think they are an ally. But 6 days ago in front of 65th NATO Parliamentary Assembly in London NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said they were.

Politbabble. Our chancellor also says the Turks are our most precious friends and allies. Lil' Boy says they are our bets freinds. everybody says that NATO is fione, all is opkay, things are tgreat.


And you believe it!



Stoltenberg btw is the political top represenative of NATO. Expecting him to talk against NATO is like expectign the pope to form an unbbiased view of the church.



Politbabble does not interest me. What I am interested in, is the long list of deeds that we by now know of Erdoghan, in all regards, in all political fields. And that speaks volumes.



Politbabble. Its nothing to be taken as truth and honest meaning. Mostly, its lie and deception. The rest is posing.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Aren't there American nukes stockpiled/stored there already?

IIRC there has been an issue about the Americans wanting to remove them.

There are about 50 weapons there yes, with new secure storage completed fairly recently.


They have been there on the standard NATO nuclear sharing agreements (which sort of violate the spirit of the NPT if not the letter) for a long time.

[mapuc]

It's not only in Northern Syria they are fighting.

Heard on the news that there have been clashes between Turkish people and Kurdish in Germany. I did not hear where.

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

It's not only in Northern Syria they are fighting.

Heard on the news that there have been clashes between Turkish people and Kurdish in Germany. I did not hear where.

Markus

There were Kurdish demosntrations today that remained peaceful and triggered much less violence than pllcie expected.



However there is a climate of constant Turkish-Kurdish aggression. Turks in Germany are predomianntly pro Erdoghan and conservative in their religious attitude - later generations in migrant families more so than the first generation - and racism is integral part of Turkish nationalism. Also, insiders often said that the Turkish intelliance services maybe are more active in Germany than in any other country outside Turkey, chasing opponents of the regime and pursuing offensive opionions by standards of Erdoghan. On earlier demonstration, there were clashes between Turks and Kurds, and the climate between them is generally poisoned. For reaosns that are beyond me Turkey is allowed to run its own mosques and imams in Germany, and in many of their msoques the Turksih imams preach turkish ultranationalsim, haste and racism and openly clal for violence against Germany, the Germans, the infidels, enemies of Erdoghan, and Kurds. These Imams get sent form the Turkish relgion m inistry, usually do not speak German, and suually do not get mionitored by Germany. The Turkish state can do what they want, and Germany does not care - that is the unbelievable truth. We are kind, you know. We are understanding. We are tolerant. We take the Turks not serious, but understand that it is just part of their cultural character. Its harmless.

Again, intel and police knows it. Politicians ignore it and act as if it is not so. Scumbags. I do not dispise poltician-breed this much for no reason, this is just one of the many reasons.

Albanian, Libanese and Turkish clans pose the biggest problems over here, also Afghan and Iraqi family clans (with sometimes hundreds of members). The police and the state does not have them under control anymore. the police knows it and warns of it, the politicians ignore it and try to hide it. In the metropoles where such clans are present, police does not enter certain areas anymore where the clans have the say. Even just traffic controls or checks for papers are enough to have clans now atacking policemen and injuring them and calling in clan help by the dozens and dozens. Every week you can find news ons uch incidents in the emdia if you look in regional press, but onyl the really serious big ones make it into the national news anymore. It has become routine of the day, at least rotuine per week. The "journaille" in germany is under very strong left and state influence, and so reports mostly politically correct.

But for today I do not know of any Turkish-Kurdish clashes in Germany.

[vienna]

Bring the boys back home, so says Trump...

..and like virtually all things Trump says, it is a lie:


US troops leaving Syria will go to Iraq, says Pentagon chief --

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50117765


So much for "Promises Kept"...

...particularly when the promises are made by a well-documented liar...


Interestingly, Trump, during his residency, has been sending more troops to the Middle East, belying his puffery about wanting to defend our borders instead of other countries' borders:

“Some people want the United States to protect the 7,000 mile away Border of Syria, presided over by Bashar al-Assad, our enemy,” he tweeted. “I would much rather focus on our Southern Border which abuts and is part of the United States of America.”

Trump’s Middle East Policy Is a Fraud --

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...e-east/600010/


Note that the above article was published some 5 days before the Pentagon released the news US forces in Syria were not 'going home', but, rather, being reposted to Iraq; what was already fraudulent has become even more so, with a layer of hypocrisy added...








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