US Politics Thread 2016-2020 - Page 722

Skybird · 10-09-20, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Please Skybird, you are the master at spinning wild conspiracy theories, I am just analyzing the evidence as presented.

You obviously cannot differ between me and yourself anymore and mistake me for yourself.

Bilge_Rat · 10-09-20, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VipertheSniper

and put places of residence of Trump under observation in preperation,

if you read the FBI affidavit which is publicly available and where the govt has to lay out the evidence which justifies the indictment, you will see that the so-called "surveillance" consisted of them driving on a public road past the Michigan governor's official summer residence (which is perfectly legal btw). They never stopped or entered the grounds.

That is not Gov. Whitmer's personal residence and she is not staying there. She is staying in the official mansion which is in Lansing at the other end of the state.

I don't think most people would consider that a "surveillance", but police always put the worst possible spin on things to justify their arrests.

VipertheSniper · 10-09-20, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

if you read the FBI affidavit which is publicly available and where the govt has to lay out the evidence which justifies the indictment, you will see that the so-called "surveillance" consisted of them driving on a public road past the Michigan governor's official summer residence (which is perfectly legal btw). They never stopped or entered the grounds.

That is not Gov. Whitmer's personal residence and she is not staying there. She is staying in the official mansion which is in Lansing at the other end of the state.

I don't think most people would consider that a "surveillance", but police always put the worst possible spin on things to justify their arrests.

Yeah, I'm just in the process of reading that, and that little bit of video they took, is probably the least of their problems. These people were planning an operation, whether they would've ever executed it, is another matter, still better safe than sorry, and if the POTUS were the target you'd probably agree, but since it's a Dem, it must be a false flag right?

Bilge_Rat · 10-09-20, 12:00 PM

well no, it could be an actual plot, we won't know for sure until all the evidence comes out, but in these type of cases and I have followed many, the FBI waits until there is a credible threat and/or they have evidence of an overt act so they can prove there is an actual crime and it is not just talk. Remember at the end of the day, they have to prove the crimes alleged beyond a reasonable doubt.

Now reading the affidavit does not show why it was so urgent to act just a few weeks before the election. There does not seem to have been much going on with the "plot" in the past few weeks. The "plotters" did not seem anywhere close to carrying out their plan. The FBI had infiltrated the group and had them under constant surveillance, so they could have been arrested anytime. Currently they have a very weak case and it will be difficult to prove that this was a real plot.

I suspect the Democratic Attorney General forced the FBI's hands by announcing state charges immediately, before the election, which of course forced the FBI to also proceed.

VipertheSniper · 10-09-20, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

well no, it could be an actual plot, we won't know for sure until all the evidence comes out, but in these type of cases and I have followed many, the FBI waits until there is a credible threat and/or they have evidence of an overt act so they can prove there is an actual crime and it is not just talk. Remember at the end of the day, they have to prove the crimes alleged beyond a reasonable doubt.

Now reading the affidavit does not show why it was so urgent to act just a few weeks before the election. There does not seem to have been much going on with the "plot" in the past few weeks. The "plotters" did not seem anywhere close to carrying out their plan. The FBI had infiltrated the group and had them under constant surveillance, so they could have been arrested anytime. Currently they have a very weak case and it will be difficult to prove that this was a real plot.

I suspect the Democratic Attorney General forced the FBI's hands by announcing state charges immediately, before the election, which of course forced the FBI to also proceed.

From what I've read the purchase of the explosives to blow up a bridge, was supposed to take place yesterday, when the arrests were made. Even at my most cynical I wouldn't assume that scoring points before the election is more important than preventing potential harm to civilians.

Bilge_Rat · 10-09-20, 04:04 PM

more info, from a guy who seems to know:

Quote:

5. Were they a serious threat?

As a specialist on Michigan militias, I’ve been asked several times since the news broke whether this group posed a real threat, in terms of being likely to act on its plan and kidnap or harm Gov. Whitmer.

Members of other militia groups in the state reported to me after the arrests that they do not believe these men were “smart enough” to pull off anything like this.

I heard similar comments about the suspected weaknesses of Hutaree members a decade ago. In 2010, nine members of that group, another Michigan militia, were arrested on federal charges that they planned a series of events to kill large numbers of police officers. Those charges were ultimately dismissed by a federal judge who said all they were doing was talking, though a few of the group were convicted of more minor charges involving weapons possession.

[Deep knowledge, daily. Sign up for The Conversation’s newsletter.]

The involvement of informants and undercover agents may also raise concerns about FBI practices, which have been criticized as fabricating entire plots to entrap innocent people in cases that alleged Islamic terrorism.

https://theconversation.com/lessons-...overnor-147876

Skybird · 10-10-20, 04:48 AM

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news...er-93557829560

What once only dared to live in the shades and under a stone, has been called out into the open by Trump. Might not be the brightest form of life on this planet, but certainly it is dangerous.

By different political developments, the Nazis have risen and made it into the parliament in germany. And Nazi gangs kill and murder over here. Left extremism of the many and mainstream polticis has called up the German right extremists, brutal egoism of just one and the mainstream politics he has formed called them out of their holes in the US.

And again (referred to it twice in the past two or three weeks already) according to American legislation, a "militia" that has not been formed up and called up by the state's governor and does not obey and follow orders by the state's giovernor, is no milita. Its just a gang of armed blokes seeking recognition and legitimation by abusing the term.

Skybird · 10-10-20, 06:53 AM

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/09/h...981173e3f823c5

Whether it is more stupdity or more brutality is a matter of perspective only.

Jimbuna · 10-10-20, 07:10 AM

I'd have thought stupidity and ignorance.

Skybird · 10-10-20, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I'd have thought stupidity and ignorance.

The WH does not suppress it due to ignorrance, they know they do damage, and Trump has admitted in that interview with Woodrow that he talks down Corona and tries to depict it as harmless. That they try to pose as strong people at the price of not protecting people and instead exposing them to the risk and helping to spread the pandemic and to fuel it, thus is brutality.

I rate it - at kinimum - as physical assault, even negligent manslaughter. Since they do it not accidentally, but intentionally, one can even argue that it even is mass murder. They know what they are doing, its not as if they act out of lacking knowledge. They know what they are doing, the intent to accept the outcome as side effect, is a given. When you do something of which you know it harms and kills people, in German law that is not slaughter, but murder. I am confident that in American law it is not much different. If you accept the killing of others as a sideeffect of your own desinterested acting, then you know of it, this then weighs the same as intentional killing with the death of the other being your desired and planned end result, and then it is murder.

For example the street car racers in Berlin killing innocents during their street races when they ended in crashes, recently were sentenced not for slaughter - but murder.

Skybird · 10-10-20, 08:11 AM

Texan judge blocks obvious attempt by Trumpian governor to manipulate election outcome.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54475466

u crank · 10-10-20, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/09/h...981173e3f823c5

Whether it is more stupdity or more brutality is a matter of perspective only.

https://www.redstate.com/nick-arama/2020/10/09/938473/

skidman · 10-10-20, 10:19 AM

^Made it through the first 25 squalid lines. Seriously, this is substandard and embarrassing, what has happened to you?

August · 10-10-20, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skidman

^Made it through the first 25 squalid lines. Seriously, this is substandard and embarrassing, what has happened to you?

Don't talk to Skybird like that, some folks claim that he has feelings.

skidman · 10-10-20, 10:35 AM

10-09-20, 12:00 PM	#10819
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,792 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	well no, it could be an actual plot, we won't know for sure until all the evidence comes out, but in these type of cases and I have followed many, the FBI waits until there is a credible threat and/or they have evidence of an overt act so they can prove there is an actual crime and it is not just talk. Remember at the end of the day, they have to prove the crimes alleged beyond a reasonable doubt. Now reading the affidavit does not show why it was so urgent to act just a few weeks before the election. There does not seem to have been much going on with the "plot" in the past few weeks. The "plotters" did not seem anywhere close to carrying out their plan. The FBI had infiltrated the group and had them under constant surveillance, so they could have been arrested anytime. Currently they have a very weak case and it will be difficult to prove that this was a real plot. I suspect the Democratic Attorney General forced the FBI's hands by announcing state charges immediately, before the election, which of course forced the FBI to also proceed. __________________

10-10-20, 04:48 AM	#10822
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,456 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news...er-93557829560 What once only dared to live in the shades and under a stone, has been called out into the open by Trump. Might not be the brightest form of life on this planet, but certainly it is dangerous. By different political developments, the Nazis have risen and made it into the parliament in germany. And Nazi gangs kill and murder over here. Left extremism of the many and mainstream polticis has called up the German right extremists, brutal egoism of just one and the mainstream politics he has formed called them out of their holes in the US. And again (referred to it twice in the past two or three weeks already) according to American legislation, a "militia" that has not been formed up and called up by the state's governor and does not obey and follow orders by the state's giovernor, is no milita. Its just a gang of armed blokes seeking recognition and legitimation by abusing the term. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-10-20, 06:53 AM	#10823
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,456 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/09/h...981173e3f823c5 Whether it is more stupdity or more brutality is a matter of perspective only. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-10-20, 07:10 AM	#10824
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 180,962 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	I'd have thought stupidity and ignorance. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

10-10-20, 08:11 AM	#10826
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,456 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Texan judge blocks obvious attempt by Trumpian governor to manipulate election outcome. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54475466 __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-10-20, 10:19 AM	#10828
skidman Ace of the Deep Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Near the Dutch mountains Posts: 1,147 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	^Made it through the first 25 squalid lines. Seriously, this is substandard and embarrassing, what has happened to you? __________________ "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” (Douglas Adams)

10-10-20, 10:35 AM	#10830
skidman Ace of the Deep Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Near the Dutch mountains Posts: 1,147 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	__________________ "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.” (Douglas Adams)