Forget the zombie apocalypse, here's the real danger coming: DRONES!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Morts

Give it up, when it comes skybird and muslims, he is a lost cause, not open to anything other than his own close minded opinion.
And dont bother replying to me skybird, i dont read your paranoid rants about muslims.

And why should I, I have given up on you, when it comes to you and Islam, you are a lost cause, not open to anything other than your own close minded opinion. And don't bother replying to me morts, I don't read your islamophile glossings of islam.

[19Herr_Rapp86]

That is not surprising, your stomach must really churn so you can still keep down the rubbish you swallowed.
Perhaps it would be easier for you to avoid the sickness feeling if you finally seperated Iraq from the "war on terror"

It wasn't a war on terror? That's news to me. Seeing Zarqawi worked for Al Qaeda, among many others. And as for handing the country over to Islamic revolutionaries and Iran or whatever the hell else you spewed... Guess you don't own a globe? Look what is in the middle of Iraq and Afghanistan. I wonder what borders those two countries with, those two countries with a large amount of American troops, equipment, bases, and airfields.... Hmmmm... If only I had a map....

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by 19Herr_Rapp86

It wasn't a war on terror? That's news to me. Seeing Zarqawi worked for Al Qaeda, among many others. And as for handing the country over to Islamic revolutionaries and Iran or whatever the hell else you spewed... Guess you don't own a globe? Look what is in the middle of Iraq and Afghanistan. I wonder what borders those two countries with, those two countries with a large amount of American troops, equipment, bases, and airfields.... Hmmmm... If only I had a map....

Afghanistan was a reaction to 9/11, Iraq was not: Iraq war was planned written by Wolfowitz ten years before the war, and before Clinton took office. When Bush became president, that plan was taken out of the drawer where it was parked for wintersleep during Clinton's years.

Al Quaeda had no links to Saddam, and Saddam had no links to Al Quaeda. That is noi surprise, becasue both were natural enemies indeed, for Saddam represented - like the Saudi regime - what Bin Laden called to fight against in corrupted Islamic regimes. There was a short sniffing between the two at some time, followed by the disillusioned conclusion that they still did not love each other at all. Iraq has had no hands in 9/11. Saudi Arabia did, the one with which the Bush clan is so very close befriended with. So close that representatives from Saudi Arabia who were guests of the Bushs at the time the towers got hit, were helped by the Bushs to leave the country before the FBI could question them.

"War on terror", is a war against wepaons and tools, "terror" in this case. Would you say WWII was a war against submarines? Tanks? Planes? Hardly. I assume you still would prefer to say that WWII was a war against the Third Reich and Imperial Japan, who both made use of these weapons and tools. The issue thus is who makes use of the tool of terror, for what reason, what is he motivated by: this somebody is who the war is on. The answer is: Islamic ideology, the demands of Quran and Sharia for superior reign of Islam over all world, Bin Laden's declaration of war against the corrupted Saudi elite and the big Satan, America.

Afghanistan gets destabilised by Pakistan that wants to improve its position against a possible war with India. It also gets destablised by Iran that wants it because the US wanted it. Iraq gets destablised by inner ethnical hate, and a power struggle between Shias and Sunnis, Iran and Saudi Arabia, Kurds in the North and any central government, and thus Turkey that does not want a strong Turkish faction in Iraq. The big winner in this game is Iran.

The formal excuse that the government gave to the public over launchign an attack on Iraq was that it had biological and nuclear wepaons of mass destruction, it was said: "We know they have them and we know where they are." Original quote end. But as I said, the war was planned and accepted by the socalled Neocons already a decade before that - when WMD and war on terror had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with it. When WMD were not found, we have seen a series of repalcmeent ecuses being tried, who also did not hold theirt ground. It finally ended with something "But we killed Saddam, isn't that not already reason enough?" - Sorry. There is a difference between a reason, and an excuse made in order to get away with it.

The strategic power balance has shifted in the region, against the US and in favour of Iran. The US military'S reputation suffered dearly, so did the prestige of the US, with its nimbus of being "invincible" (especially after Iraq 92) neutralised.

The longterm benefit will be earned by Iran, Iran and then by Iran again. Iran is the big winner. And they know it.

So, two lost wars later: was it worth it? My answer is a clear No.

And Afghanistan: when the Soviets were fought by the Taliban back then, they got support from Islamic legionaires from other countries, the socalled Green Legion. Afghjnais did not like them for the most. However, Legionaires, Taliban and fighters from othe rfactions all said that now they fight to overturn the Russians, and tomorrow the whole world. Today, Taliban spokesman say the same again, that the fight is about bringing Islam to all the world.

Well. Hallelujah.

[Codz]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Nazism is no religion. Nor am I paranoid regarding Nazism. The evil nature of it is not my personal mental disease, but proven historical fact.

I was referring to Islam.

Originally Posted by Skybird

History has spoken. And the dead roll in their graves that you let the cause of their death still move freely. Why have your forefathers even fought against Nazism ion the first, then. What have they died for? Why was the Third Reich crushed in the first, then?

They have no power here, or in any other major western country! You can't arrest someone just because they believe in a bad political party. If they commit a crime against a Jew or a communist or whoever the neo-Nazis currently spew their hatred toward, then they'll go to prison for that. Censorship will just garner them more sympathy. I am certainly not pro-Nazi, but I am also not pro-censorship either. After what happened in the Second World War, they have no chance of ever gaining serious support in any major country ever again.

[Catfish]

I do not really believe that Iran will be the winner, after all.
certainly not the people in short terms, but also not the religious leaders in long terms.

As it was said before (by MH ?) seeing the western techniques and freedom, the "religious" leaders (indeed it is all about power, and the best religious pretext is just an excuse for poor dictatorship) will have a hard time to sweep it all under the carpet, with mobile phones with cameras, internet and seeing what happened in Libya, Egypt, and now in Syria.

@Skybird i'd propose to just talk to some "islamists", or better just people living in Germany as muslims and not being religiously or otherwise radical in any respect. There should be enough in Berlin to ask or talk to.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Codz

I was referring to Islam.

You answered directly to a paragraph that was about Nazism. Why you did that then I cannot see.

They have no power here, or in any other major western country!

I see. Their freedom only must be cut after another world war being waged that showed their ideology spelling disaster. No lesson learned from WWII. Let the same barbaric thinking breath and bloom again.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

I do not really believe that Iran will be the winner, after all.

They already are. They have both hands plunged into Iraqi politics now. Al-Sadr represents Iranian interests and influence, too. Persians are Shias. The Iraqi Shias differ from them since they are more following Arab Shia tradition (different than Persian Shia tradition), but still - ther eis ties forming up.

certainly not the people in short terms, but also not the religious leaders in long terms.

Since when is powerpolitics about the interest of the people...? The rift between Sunni and Shia branches nevertheless remain, and so does the faceoff Saudi-Arabia versus Iran

As it was said before (by MH ?) seeing the western techniques and freedom, the "religious" leaders (indeed it is all about power, and the best religious pretext is just an excuse for poor dictatorship) will have a hard time to sweep it all under the carpet, with mobile phones with cameras, internet and seeing what happened in Libya, Egypt, and now in Syria.

How many times have we heared that in the poast ten years now? Concerning Afghanistan? Pakistan? Tunisia? Egypt? Kuwait? Libya? And where tough regimes do not stay in control, new theocratiuc regimes get voted for in free democratic elections.

Nice.

@Skybird i'd propose to just talk to some "islamists", or better just people living in Germany as muslims and not being religiously or otherwise radical in any respect. There should be enough in Berlin to ask or talk to.

I have been in Muslim countries for much longer than one year, mainly Iran and Turkey, and for short times in some more, and I have spoken to German Muslims also - true Muslims and "fake" (="moderate")-Muslims who indeed already were apostates but did not confess to that. I also talked two guys so much into doubt that they took the courage and strength to stand up against their families and left Islam - at tragically high costs for them, and greta risk for their health and life. They are apostates now, but they have lost their families. I have been part of a Bürgerinitiative that confronted a Muslim fraudery over a mosque-increasing project next to the place I live here and we managed to prevent it at court and to reveal it as an act of fraud over forged contracts. I have been told to the face that of course they lied, else they would not have gotten what they wanted, our chairman got beaten up on the street, his wife mobbed repeatedly, and they finally fled from the city. I have gotten paper-letters with threads of murder. The police refused to take them seriousl, instead threatening ME with investigations by the BKA against ME.

What was it you wanted to tell me about "speaking to Muslims?"

It'S the ideology. It'S the regional patriarchalic culture. What some Muslim says, does not chnage that. Can you imagine how often someobdy in thos forum told me in the past ten years "Hey, but I know a friendly Muslim who lives in the flat at the end of my floor"? Can you imagine how tiresome it is that one refers to ideology, or history, or content of religious law - and gets met by a superficial reply like this? "I know somebody who lives down the floor, and I like him."

Well. Fine. Nice. I'm not impressed. I drank tea in houses of Muslim hosts inj Turkey and Iran and was treated very nicely in Iran (mostly), and polite but ery cold in Turkey (mostly). And one minute lkater I got told how proud I should be that my German people have killed so many Jews. Or that aid of a mullah in Teheran that my boss back then interviewed in another hall. We sat on the balcony, and he asked me about myself and back then I still was wearing that stupid stamp on my forehead "Buddhist", and he jzust nodded and did noit eat me alive. He then reflected nicely about joy and freedom and the meaning of life in Islam - and how good it serves a man'
s chance for later entering paradise if he bans the evil in women by whipping them frequently. Nice!

Again refer you - all - to comparing the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam. If then you think that terms like freedom and tolerance have the same meaning in Islam as in our culture, I cannot help you.

Wait, you are lucky, you speak German. In German I have a link for such a comparison at hand:
http://www.citizentimes.eu/2012/03/2...chte-im-islam/

Say good-bye to free speech, free opinion, humanism, equal rights, equality for women. The flag of the prophet must fly above everything.

It wasn't a war on terror? That's news to me.

Obviously.

Seeing Zarqawi worked for Al Qaeda, among many others.

Times and dates young man, preferably with the conflict of your choice being the key measure so they can be slightly relevant.
But please don't relate the tale of the one legged terrorist you couldn't find even though he was a "KNOWN not SUSPECTED terrorist"

And as for handing the country over to Islamic revolutionaries and Iran or whatever the hell else you spewed...

Simple stuff isn't it.
You do know who the goverment is and you do know where they were based and you do know that the Obama rejected the Sofa agreement because SCIRI handed the negotiations over to Iran for agreement.
Did someone mention sarcasm?

Guess you don't own a globe?

Old ones or new ones?

Look what is in the middle of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Exactly, a crazy persian shia theocracy with a saudi funded pashtun sunni fundamentalist nutjob on one side and a sunni arab nationalist dictatorship on the other side with a side order of nuclear armed sunni nuts on the south east side and some sunnii turkoman nationalists for good measure to seal the deal in the north
Did you just look at the pretty colours on your globe?

I wonder what borders those two countries with, those two countries with a large amount of American troops, equipment, bases, and airfields.... Hmmmm... If only I had a map....

If only
Maybe you should count another border, one of your allies who is happy to slaughter those kurds you think people don't know aboutand that happens to be the only border where you have relatively safe bases.
It seems you are well out of your depth

I must say though, I am almost amazed that you manage to introduce all these angles into an almost entirely unrelated topic, it does suggest that the mess that was Iraq has problems settling in your stomach and causing you problems of a digestive nature, but its Ok I think most people understand that and will treat you gently like I have.

[19Herr_Rapp86]

Times and dates young man, preferably with the conflict of your choice being the key measure so they can be slightly relevant.
But please don't relate the tale of the one legged terrorist you couldn't find even though he was a "KNOWN not SUSPECTED terrorist"

So.... we couldn't find him... Hmmm.... He's dead... via a US bomb... Moot point, Tribesman. Times and dates, sonny! No one said a war against a faceless enemy would be a quick or easy one. Ask Bin Laden about that. Oh wait, you can't. Found him too. Go pick your potatoes Irishman.

Simple stuff isn't it.
You do know who the goverment is and you do know where they were based and you do know that the Obama rejected the Sofa agreement because SCIRI handed the negotiations over to Iran for agreement.
Did someone mention sarcasm?

Don't care. My point is there is US equipment there now and Iran is staring down the barrel of it. Go pick your potatoes, Irishman.

Old ones or new ones?

Any. Not my fault you failed geography. Go pick your potatoes.

Exactly, a crazy persian shia theocracy with a saudi funded pashtun sunni fundamentalist nutjob on one side and a sunni arab nationalist dictatorship on the other side with a side order of nuclear armed sunni nuts on the south east side and some sunnii turkoman nationalists for good measure to seal the deal in the north
Did you just look at the pretty colours on your globe?

Still missing the point. All this American military equipment, and all those troops getting bored, just waiting for something to attack, sitting on the Iranian border. You know what to do, Irishman.

If only
Maybe you should count another border, one of your allies who is happy to slaughter those kurds you think people don't know aboutand that happens to be the only border where you have relatively safe bases.
It seems you are well out of your depth

Yep. One more ally in the upcoming war.

I must say though, I am almost amazed that you manage to introduce all these angles into an almost entirely unrelated topic, it does suggest that the mess that was Iraq has problems settling in your stomach and causing you problems of a digestive nature, but its Ok I think most people understand that and will treat you gently like I have.

I love how those who weren't even there and had no idea what went on are the experts. Since you know so much, Tribesman, enlighten me, Galway girl.

[mapuc]

When reading this thread a memory came up

Sometime in the late 80'ies I was studying industrial electrician and under that time I meet many people and one of them came from Iran

He told me that no muslem will ever work with Americans or it's allied and if they do they will lie and decieve

He also told me that one day All muslem countries will be one again as they were under Muhammad

"It's going to happen and then America and it's allied will get what they deserve"
(can't remember the exact wordframe)

I found out late that he was a radical muslem

Markus

So.... we couldn't find him... Hmmm.... He's dead... via a US bomb... Moot point, Tribesman. Times and dates, sonny! No one said a war against a faceless enemy would be a quick or easy one. Ask Bin Laden about that. Oh wait, you can't. Found him too. Go pick your potatoes Irishman.

Wow potatoes. classy
Moot point? times and dates young man, you brought it up in a topic that it had bugger all to do with, now try and prove your point.
Oh sorry you was just talking bolloxwasn't you

Don't care

You can't answerbecauser you have no point.

My point is there is US equipment there now and Iran is staring down the barrel of it.

Errrrr....Iran said buggfer off and take your equipment with you , Pakistan said you better beg again if you want access, Afghanistan says oopps soory we don't control that territory
Well done mein herr.

Go pick your potatoes, Irishman.

Keep it up young man, you are on to a winning arguement there

Any. Not my fault you failed geography. Go pick your potatoes.

Sorry fella, you already trashed yourself on that count.

Still missing the point. All this American military equipment, and all those troops getting bored, just waiting for something to attack, sitting on the Iranian border.

Thats a strange globe you have, are you sure it isn't a game of Risk you are using for a map? are you poised in Siam perhaps?

You know what to do, Irishman.

Yay freedom of speech

Yep. One more ally in the upcoming war.

You want Turkey to fight Iran

love how those who weren't even there and had no idea what went on are the experts.

Even a rank amatuer with a michelin road map and a 200 year out of date political guide would trounce your arguement on the region.

Since you know so much, Tribesman, enlighten me, Galway girl.

As you asked so nicely here we are, after all it took a yank to write it , so here is Steve Earl

[Codz]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Say good-bye to free speech, free opinion, humanism, equal rights, equality for women. The flag of the prophet must fly above everything.

This is just sad. I've never seen a more pure example of fear mongering. The chances of radical Islam "taking over the world" are somwhere around zero. All of the most powerful countries in the world have laws enforcing free religion. The US, Russia, France, Germany, Japan, China, etc. Not a single Middle Eastern country could take on any of those powers outside of their own territory. If your talking about a "cultural invasion", then where are all of the new Mosques or massive amounts of Islam converts in Western civilization? This is paranoia and Islamophobia plain and simple.

[Takeda Shingen]

Well, this thread went south from the last time I read it.

[19Herr_Rapp86]

Thats a strange globe you have, are you sure it isn't a game of Risk you are using for a map? are you poised in Siam perhaps?

Yeah that is a strange globe I'm using that shows Iran on the border of Afghanistan and Iraq, isn't it. Very strange. Ought to get a refund on that globe and get a new one, even though it will still show Iran in the middle of Afghanistan and Iraq. Maybe I ought to just do away with the globe and get a map. Perhaps the outdated Michelin road map will work. Oh wait, that still shows Iran on the border of Afghanistan and Iraq. Dang. Cartographers must be stupid, huh. You're right, Siam (Thailand) borders Iran and has a bunch of US military troops and equipment in it.

[Morts]

Originally Posted by Codz

This is just sad. I've never seen a more pure example of fear mongering. The chances of radical Islam "taking over the world" are somwhere around zero. All of the most powerful countries in the world have laws enforcing free religion. The US, Russia, France, Germany, Japan, China, etc. Not a single Middle Eastern country could take on any of those powers outside of their own territory. If your talking about a "cultural invasion", then where are all of the new Mosques or massive amounts of Islam converts in Western civilization? This is paranoia and Islamophobia plain and simple.

"the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
--Hermann Göring