There goes Hong Kong

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by the beast

We should do what we did with Japan before WW2 was we just stopped importing or exporting supplies.
We should hope this doesn’t lead to war.

I could be wrong.

Wouldn't some other countries Like Russia and members of the EU clap their hands if USA does just that..stopped exporting and importing supplies from China.

As they say

"One man dead another man's bread"

Because they would see opportunity to expand their export to China on the cost of USA pulling out.

Markus

[Catfish]

The US pulling out and letting it all free for China is indeed a bad mistake, also for the US. There can be myopic advantages economy-wise, but we (the EU and the UK) will suffer badly in the long run. Not that Trump cares, of course. He is an idiot.

[Skybird]

That we, Europe, suffer form blowbacks here, is our own fault. Nobody forced us to depend on the US so heavily and endlessly, and nobody forced us to sell our vital interests away and to China. We have chosen to be weak and vulnerable for - ideological and econoimcially short-sighted - reasons that we have erratically rated as more important. Now we find that these reasons cannot keep our boat afloat. We have taken it for granted that the US will always be there to bail us out if threat arises. It won't anymore. I rate cyber attacks as acts of war, they are attacks of one nation against anothe rnation. And the US already is our enemy in these regards, it attacks us constantly and tries to fully monitor our decision making, our planning, our intention, our economic stragey - everything. So far for economic interests of theirs mostly. But that can change from one day to the next. All it takes is a secret order at the top.

Our own fault that we are where we are. We have chosen weakness and irrelevance, and mistook speeches and words with power.

The post-war order is done and over. The US is not our friend anymore. The US also is no friendly hegemon anymore. All that is the world of the past. Its over and it wont come back.

We better wake up. And focus on our own local well being and safety and how to protect that against all the others out there, China, Russia and America. We must get indepe3ndent from Ameircna domiannce in the itnernet and the cyberspace. An almost impossible task, but we will remain vulnerable to them as long as we do not become independent from their control of the internet, the electronic media and communiction. In all these rehgards, China, America na dRussia all wage war against all the rest of the world already, espowecially Europe, since Europe is a juicy and weak prey. Instead of wanting to lecture all the rest of the world, we need to realise our wekanesses, and become strong by ourt own means. I do not know if that is possible anymore, the demographic and historic indices are not in our favour. We bite off more than we can chew, if we continue to just depend on words and speeches and appeals and moral commanding. We should keep China away, and throw out of them what alreeady is here. That will need a change in internal European politics that I cannot imagine how to make come true. But we should push the Americans out of Europe as well. As I said, they are no longer our friends. At minimum they are rivals. and 1845 is 75 years ago. A full life cycle of a human being.

I think it would have come this far anyway. Trump only was a catalysator speeding things up a bit. As much as I dispise him - he is not the cause of what goes wrong in the US. He is a the so far resulting, logical symptom. Without the past 30 years or so, Trump today would not have been possible. He is an expression of a long internal degeneration of the political system and the social structures in the US.

[Texas Red]

We have been having a trade war with China I believe for a while and we have just been taking it in the butt, but now we cannot do anything.

If war were to erupt, I think that the battleground will be on Taiwan, maybe even Hong Kong. It's too early to know.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by the beast

We have been having a trade war with China I believe for a while and we have just been taking it in the butt, but now we cannot do anything.

If war were to erupt, I think that the battleground will be on Taiwan, maybe even Hong Kong. It's too early to know.

I hope there are no war.

If it does, China has the capability to hit USA, with some of their long range missiles, which can be loaded with conventional.
So even the civilians in USA would suffer in a war.

(My fear is, that USA interprets it as a Nuclear attack)

So let's hope it stay with finger pointing and shouting between Trump and Xi Jinping

Markus

[Skybird]

"America first!" also means: "Why should we sacrifice our ressources and our soldier's lives over Taiwan?" Why risking nuclear escalation with china over Taiwan? The US has retreated from many treaties in the past years, has deeply alienated parts of the ME, all of Europe, and has been provoked many times by China in the past 15-20 years, every time without seriously reacting. The US is not a trustworthy ally anymore. I do not put money on that they would engage in a full scale conventional war over Taiwan. Especially not if you follow the way Trump ticks. The south chinese Sea, that might be something different, but Taiwan under full control of Bejing is nothing that threatens international trade lines and maritime ressource areas.

[Texas Red]

I just cannot stand Trump though. Some of the decisions he makes it sound like it is based on some thought he had while he was eating potato chips in the Oval Office, looking for ways to "Make America Great Again" by pulling out of all major treaties, etc, as Skybird says.

This week, he pulled out of funding for the WHO because he thought that "China was pressuring WHO to downplay the virus." People are saying that it will severely weaken WHO because the US is the biggest funder or whatever to WHO.

Some people say that anything that hurts China will help, but we just need a smarter president tbh.

I agree with mapuc here on this:

So let's hope it stay with finger-pointing and shouting between Trump and Xi Jinping

I'm not really wanting to go to war either, I'm sure that the whole USA feels that way too. But if there is a war, I pray that it isn't a Nuclear War. If there is any type of war, I will still gladly join in and fight for our country as soon as I am old enough. But if China or Russia pulls off another sneak attack, then I am absolutely POSITIVE that we will go to war.

Really these are troubled times we are having here. I'm praying that everyone one of us here on Subsim stays safe. God bless you all....

[Eisenwurst]

My 2 cents worth :-

I've had a lot of Chinese friends and workmates over the years. Most of them have been good, decent people ( like any other "People" ). I've even had 2 Chinese girlfriends over the years ( I've been told that one still carries a torch for me still after 30 years ).

There's a young lady ( whom I miss very much ) stuck in Shanghai who can't get back to Australia because of border closures and diplomatic "tit for tat".

There's a HUGE groundswell for change in China but they need a charismatic leader to give it focus.

Change will come in China, but it will be from within. The world saw it happen in Eastern Europe. The Chinese people ( not their Government ) are brave, patient, and long suffering. Who can forget "Tank Man".

[Skybird]

Xi is the most powerful leader that they have ever had in modenr times, and he works hard to get his family deeply dug in at the top of the state, forming a new de facto imperial dynasty like the Kims in North Korea. And china has demsbtrate don the Tianmen Plaza that the state is willing to massacres it sown citizens as well if they are disobedient. 30 thousand got killed, secret informations have told us. Add to this the brutality by which the state acts against different thinking. Ethnic minorities.



This is not Eastern Europe. Its far more brutal and far less civilised. And far more people are far more brainwashed anf full-heartly embrace the regime of the corrupt party.



When the peoples congress recently voted for the new Hongkong legislation, the count showed the result with one single oppposing vote saying No. I am certain that that perosn ahs seen his last congress. Maybe even his last New years eve. Since the modern China wa sformed, this congress has not opposed single time what the state heads have proposed. And Chinese people by vast majority (got trained to) like and love this system. Look at the sevrlity ba whcih they follow implementaiton of any new control mechnisms. The new social notes and social reward/sanction point system. The censorship.



I see black regarding China. Its not Poland, its not the GDR. Its much, much worse.

[Skybird]

Think I skip my trip to Hongkong - or China in general - after my postings here.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/07/03/a...hnk/index.html

the legislation, which came into effect late Tuesday,doesn't only clamp down on freedoms at home. It also puts foreign citizens who criticize the Chinese government anywhere in the world at risk of jail if they even set foot in the city -- even if they are just transiting through the airport.

Cowardish EU governments still stay put and silent over Hongkong and try to find a cozy place next to this tyranny that behaves not differently to its regional neighbours and the world like Germany did in the years before and until 1939. The UK raised its voice a bit, but in the end has no teeth impressing anyone in the region anymore.



China has dramatically increased its fleet of coast guard boats and uses these now to even harass fishing boats of other nations within these nations' own 12 miles zone.

The lack of reaction to the events in Hongkong, and the appeasing attitude by Europe towards Chinese criminal role in the Corona information policy, will no doubt have encouraged emperor Xing to give the same kind of treatment to Taiwan sooner or later. I no longer think of a military aggression as one possible scenario amongst others, but see it as a certainty now. Hongkong and western and regional reactions to it taught Bejing that it has nothing to fear from the world.

I am also very certain that the US will not go to war against China over Taiwan. Even more so since the Chinese will shatter the island faster with their rain of missiles than the US could react to that in mobilizing Pazific forces. Its not "if" to me, only "when". Maybe they use Corona as an umbrella to walk under. But Corona is economically difficult for them as well, so possibly it still is years away that they bring Taiwan back home into the Reich by force. With Xing installing his family as the Kim dynasty of China, he can play the long game.


Washington currently sent two carriers and six escorts (says a German newspaper) into the south Chinese Sea. Sabre rattling, and symbolic only. Such acting to me is just a parade. I am quite certain that China is not impressed, but will play the "we are indignent!" card.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by skybird

Washington currently sent two carriers and six escorts (says a German newspaper) into the south Chinese Sea. Sabre rattling, and symbolic only. Such acting to me is just a parade. I am quite certain that China is not impressed, but will play the "we are indignent!" card.

Indeed! business as usual in 'parade' formation A variation of the Great White Fleet off to confront the 'yellow peril' Teddy Roosevelt would love it!

[Skybird]

The German government has finally reacted to the events in Hongkong. It has issued a recommendation for all Germans to practice self-censorship. It said that German must expect to get arrested and trialed on grounds of the new "security" laws if they set foot onto Hongkong soil, evcen if their plane is just landing for refueling or passenger swapping- means you have to expect to get pulled out of the plane even if Hongkong is not your destination, but you are just transiting. Germans should practice self-abstain from criticising China.

Way to go, Germany. You have big experience with such servility towards state authoritarianism , so why not falling back to this your historical expertise once again?


Of course Merkel still babbles of special German-Chinese relations . An of course Germna economy sitll is so stupdi to pump huge amounts of money and know-how to China. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. We should write off all these lost moneys, withdraw from Chian compeltely, and then focus on using all our influential weight inside the EU to block the Chinese out of Europe. TGhe german China-policy was build on naive illusions from beginning on, and now it is is ruins. Nothing worth to be mentooned, no civilizational progess has been achieved. The country is more dangerous now than ever before. And it must not listen and comply anymore. We gave it what it wanted form us, and now it does not really need us anymore, can get along and even surpass us all by itself. Stupid, stupid, stupid.



When I said in a posting above I better should not travel to Hongkong anymore due to the Chinese probably, like the Americans, monitoring and recording all electronic communication, I was not kidding. At no cost I would do it anymore. We see with German citizens criticising Erdoghan from outside Turkey being arrested at will when travelling to Turkey, how real these kinds of threats are.

Also, why would I want to go to and leave my money in a barbaric country like that? I have no business there, and for tourism, there are more comfortable destinations.

[iambecomelife]

Originally Posted by Eisenwurst

My 2 cents worth :-

I've had a lot of Chinese friends and workmates over the years. Most of them have been good, decent people ( like any other "People" ). I've even had 2 Chinese girlfriends over the years ( I've been told that one still carries a torch for me still after 30 years ).

There's a young lady ( whom I miss very much ) stuck in Shanghai who can't get back to Australia because of border closures and diplomatic "tit for tat".

There's a HUGE groundswell for change in China but they need a charismatic leader to give it focus.

Change will come in China, but it will be from within. The world saw it happen in Eastern Europe. The Chinese people ( not their Government ) are brave, patient, and long suffering. Who can forget "Tank Man".

Good insights. I agree that change must come from within; moreover, what leverage can any country - even the US - have when dealing with such a huge nuclear armed power? I had a good Han Chinese friend who told me that, as much as the man in the street there dislikes gov't meddling & corruption, they are still deeply suspicious of US notions of "freedom", "justice" &c. Probably with good reason....look at how atomized and fractious the United States are today. He also said that pro-democracy protesters (like the student demonstrators on the mainland ~ 30 years ago) should not be considered representative of the whole population there.

As Eisenwurst said, I suspect any change will be at their own pace, and from within! Definitely not from US carrier battlegroups.

[mapuc]

Some of the Danish Politicians(those who are in opposition) Demands that we take a standpoints against China.

Yesterday Tibet, today Hong Kong and tomorrow Taiwan. It' time to draw a line in the sand one of these politicians said.

It's so easy to say things when a politician is in opposition to the government and don't have to take serious decision, only thing they have to do in the parliament is to vote for or against laws.

Which country with a full mental health politicians will take on China ??

Markus

[Catfish]

Change may come from within, but how should this be possible with the rising levels of surveillance and this "point" system?
It is not exactly new to China to have such a régime, i doubt anyone remembers better times. They also try to re-educate by force, something they learned in Korea and Vietnam with this brain-washing methods; they are currently trying this out against the Uigurs.
There has been a heavyweight delivery of human hair from China to Germany; it has been sent back, but some expect it may come from the Uigurs.

The german automotive industry says it needs China as a market, for buying cheap electronics and selling cars.
"We" should not buy anything from China as long as Xi Jinping plays the great leader, not that capitalism will follow that idea.
A definite stance on that matter is needed, and i do not mean a forever debate.