Swedish navy chasing foreign sub

[mapuc]

Friends there are ONE big evidence that say it is russian.

The communication from somewhere around stockholm and Kalinigrad. Two of them one open distress call the last was encrypted.

According to FRA(SigInt)

There are people in Sweden who says it's no sub, its the Swedish Navy who want more money.

Markus

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by mapuc

A Swedish expert think it could be

Triton-NN the Swedish Navy is chasing.

Markus

Well I don't think that a such light craft could get into that area of operations,so I would still say that pirania series is a more probable candidate.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by mapuc

...The communication from somewhere around stockholm and Kalinigrad. Two of them one open distress call the last was encrypted. ...
According to FRA(SigInt)Markus

Then i do not understand the hystery. If the sub is damaged, they should probably help it instead of "chasing", regardless in which waters it is in, or from which nationality.
They can exchange their f.. protest notes later.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Well I don't think that a such light craft could get into that area of operations,so I would still say that pirania series is a more probable candidate.

I'm no expert on Mini Subs

I think that the choice of submarine depends on the type of operation.

Markus

[ikalugin]

Well as far as I remember Triton-NN looks like this:

 

Ie it is a submersible speed boat, I am not sure even if any were actually fielded.

 

[Catfish]

Hi Mapuc,
i do not know if you even read what i wrote, about those intrusions into swedish waters.
This time, it may well be a russian sub, but back then they were most probably UK and US subs, trying to turn the swedish politics towards the west, against Russia, by imitating russian subs, repeatedly breaking swedish territorial waters and by this convinving the swedish government to keep to the NATO, and have no negotiations with Russia.
(The only one sub that was caught red-handed, of russian origin - was the W-137 called "Whiskey" on the rocks" by the press if i remember right, relating to the Nato designation of a russian "Whiskey" type sub, beached within swedish territorial waters).


And maybe i do not have to remind you, but since you asked about Olof Palme (NOT Palmer):


1987 New Prime Minister Olof Palme murdered on the streets of Stockholm.

Palme was fed up with the Submarine incidents and was planning to build up good relations with Russia on a nuclear free zone in the Baltic. The Russians were also very interested to improve the relations with neutral Sweden which could then act as buffer to NATO. Understandably, the Swedish/Russian relations had become quite frosty following the W-137 affairs.

The swedish Navy felt betrayed. Also the NATO and the western allies were not happy. Three days before Palme's visit to Moscow in 1987, you could see six well known faces of high ranking Navy officers on the Front Pages of daily papers with the headline PALME IS A TRAITOR.

A TV reporter interviewed Palme and raised the question:

Have you any thoughts on why the officers in the Navy do not trust the Prime Minister?
Palme replied:
"I have had some thoughts if I could trust my officers and I came to the conclusion that that I can do so - which does not includes those 6 officers in the newspaper."

Two days later Mr Palme was shot dead - the murderer is still free despite a reward on 50 million SEK.

The Swedish Television recently released a program of Palme and the murder plot. It was aired in 3 parts and was extremely well done.
The conclusion was that the murder was set up and organised by a number of ex officers, some of them later serving as police officers in Stockholm.
The "police trail" as it was called, was neverollowed, and Palme's death never clarified.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hi Mapuc,
i do not know if you even read what i wrote, about those intrusions into swedish waters.
This time, it may well be a russian sub, but back then they were most probably UK and US subs, trying to turn the swedish politics towards the west, against Russia, by imitaing russian subs, and repeatedly breaking into territorial waters.
(The only one sub that was caught red-handed, of russion origin - was the W-137 called "Whiskey" on the rocks" by the press if i remember right, relating to the Nato deignation of a russian "Whiskey" type sub being beachedwithin swedidh territorial waters).


And maybe i do not have to remind you, but since you asked about Olof Palme (NOT Palmer):

1987 New Prime Minister Olof Palme murdered on the streets of Stockholm.


Palme was fed up with the Submarine incidents and was planning to build up good relations with Russia on a nuclear free zone in the Baltic. The Russians were also very interested to improve the relations with neutral Sweden which could then act as buffer to NATO. Understandably, the Swedish/Russian relations had become quite frosty following the W-137 affairs.

The swedish Navy felt betrayed. Also the NATO and the western allies were not happy. Three days before Palme's visit to Moscow in 1987, you could see six well known faces of high ranking Navy officers on the Front Pages of daily papers with the headline PALME IS A TRAITOR.

A TV reporter interviewed Palme and raised the question:

Have you any thoughts on why the officers in the Navy do not trust the Prime Minister?
Palme replied:
"I have had some thoughts if I could trust my officers and I came to the conclusion that that I can do so - which does not includes those 6 officers in the newspaper."

Two days later Mr Palme was shot dead - the murderer is still free despite a reward on 50 million SEK.
The Swedish Television recently released a program of Palme and the murder plot. It was aired in 3 parts and was extremely well done.
The conclusion was that the murder was set up and organised by a number of ex officers, some of them later serving as police officers in Stockholm.

Sorry Catfish I had read your first answer and sorry I didn't reply.

Yes there was indication that some of these violations could have been American subs.

Palme. There are many theories about who and why and this Police-track is one of them. Many Swedes still believes it was the Police who did it.


What if I also told that the reason to why these policemen/officers should have killed Palme, was his love to Russia. They was convinced that Palme would sell Sweden to Sovjet.
Markus

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Navigation errors can be deadly. Though ramming the French does not count as a navigational error :p

Nah, that's just business as normal.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by mapuc

... What if I also told that the reason to why these policemen/officers should have killed Palme, was his love to Russia. They was convinced that Palme would sell Sweden to Sovjet.
Markus

Of course they thought so. But was Palme really a "Russia-lover" who wanted to "sell Sweden" ?
Is this not a bit ridiculous ?
Is a suspicion enough, to plain murder the prime minister of a nation ?

And of course, he was a social democrat. And anyone not being straight right wing, must be a communist and a traitor, by NATO standards.

I think your officers put their love to NATO above their oath to their own country. Bad enough they still seem to be in exalted position.
If they are the murderers, they deserve at least to be tried for high treason. Of course, this will never happen.

[mapuc]

I found a very interesting article in the Swedish News paper aftonbladet. se.
By W. H

Have used google translate

"Secrecy creates speculations

Short summary.
Are we one hundred percent sure that a violation of Swedish waters occurred? Answer: No.
If the place is Russia, where the prime suspect? Answer: Yes
Can there be any other type of NATO? Answer: Yes

The grainy image of what could be some kind of submarine adds very little in practice. Although military experts can not seem to say what it is that tipster caught on picture

The picture is additionally taken two days after the surgery published. I suspect it will turn up many grainy images of defense for underwater vehicles as public speaking in the archipelago, but that could just as well be seals, rocks in the water or driftwood.

The quickest releases picture suggests that it is the only "picture proof" defense has for the suspected violations.

The defense also rejects SvD's data on emergency call and shaken submarine but is more vague with regard to encrypted communications

"Worth remembering"
Amid the hysterical atmosphere that prevails, it may be worthwhile to recall some things.

Sweden's ability to hunt submarines are much worse now than in the 80s. Because they suspected violations ceased soon after the Soviet collapse as has been piecemeal poised down the Swedish ability.

If a violation actually occurred, there is little chance that the defense will bring up the submarine, mini submarine or whatever it is. Not even in the 80's with all the felled depth bombs defense managed to get up any foreign vessel or nation determine the invaders with one hundred percent certainty.

From the Swedish side, it's as much about showing that you are on the ball and that we have the capacity to respond to violations

Russia has by his conduct in the last year all by themselves qualified for the main suspect in the case, the case of a violation.

The Kremlin has ordered its border defenses to behave very aggressively towards the outside world. It has flown risky near Swedish signals intelligence plane in international waters and ostentatiously displayed its vapenbestyckning. Russian ships have almost rammed a research vessel. A series of threatening behavior has been observed both in the Baltic and elsewhere

What do the Russians want?
So it is very clear that Russia wants to show that it has increased its presence and that it is back as a dominant military power.

The question was a possible underwater violation fits into the picture

Would Russia in fact that Sweden will discover that our waters are violated? Since we already know with certainty that Russia violated our territory in the air and generally behaved threateningly, is there any reason why you would not do it even underwater

The general objective may be to intimidate the Baltic countries and in Sweden's case, a warning not to take any further steps towards NATO membership.?

But if one wanted to keep secret intrusion and uncovered by accident so is Russia's objective another. Then will the Russian military may collect information about Swedish submarine defense for use in possible future operations.

In some ways, a more worrying scenario.

Although NATO submarines in the Baltic Sea. In theory, it is quite possible that, for example, the United States violates Swedish waters in order to put the blame on Russia. However, it is less likely as Sweden now collaborating so closely with NATO. Something we did not in the 80s.

On the basis of what we so far know for sure, it is still no guarantee that everything is a fake. Perhaps no one violated Swedish water whatsoever. The fact that several people have seen anything suspicious which is then interpreted is entirely possible.

Now that the Swedish military operation is generally known, it is difficult to see why the military would continue to conceal concrete evidence if you have any.

The Navy may have their own purposes in interpreting witness testimony in a certain direction.

"May have overreacted"

For many years, the Navy's ability to hunt a foreign underwater vehicles refitted down like the other defense. Now that the defense will be strengthened again comes to stay ahead to get increased funding.

I do not claim that the defense found on the violation but they may consciously or unconsciously have overreacted.

Defence secrecy and lack of facts contributing unfortunately that it is possible to speculate in all possible directions "


Markus

[daft]

The Rear Admiral holdingbthe latest press briefing denied any knowledge of distress broadcasts or encrypted communication originating from within Swedish waters. This obviously does not mean no such broadcasts were made, but he was pretty adamant in denying them. The information regarding the broadcasts were leaked to a journalist that specializes in military matters and allagedly has good connections inside the Swedish military.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Of course they thought so. But was Palme really a "Russia-lover" who wanted to sell Sweden ?
Is this not a bit ridiculous ?
Is a suspicion enough, to plain murder the prime minister of a nation ?

And of course, he was a social democrat. And anyone not being straight right wing, must be a communist and a traitor, by NATO standards.

I think your officers put their love to NATO above their oath to their own country. Bad enough they still seem to be in exalted position.
If they are the murderers, they deserve to be tried for high treason, and shot. Of course, this will never happen.

If we by any chances should get the people who was behind the killing of Olof Palme, they should be tried as high treason

In the beginning I read a lot about those "Palme Tracks"

Here are some of them

The PKK-Trak(speculation that the Kurds was behind the killing)
South Africa(speculation that a Hitman was hired to kill Palme)
The Police track(this one you know)
A mistake-(this was my favorite) Someone was planning to shot some person but Palme had the unfortune to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Markus

[Catfish]

If you substract the most unbelievable scenarios, and then think of who benefits the most of a certain situation, you are seldomly wrong

[daft]

Someone living in the archipelago saw flashes and heard booming sounds. He managed to film the smaller event:

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by daft

Someone living in the archipelago saw flashes and heard booming sounds. He managed to film the smaller event:

3 things comes into my mind

1. They still haven't found the sub, by using DC they hope the sub will start to move and thereby hear it.
2. They have found it and are trying to get it surfaced
3. They are going in for a kill.

Edit:
Have been looking at some of the Swedish news page and there it's nothing about explosion(s)

Markus