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Old 11-22-2019, 05:08 AM   #16
ikalugin
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Is Perseus dead by the way?
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Old 11-24-2019, 07:52 AM   #17
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Perseus was just a theoretical research aimed to define the needs for the UK/French FC/ASW missile joint program.
UK want a stealth missile and French a fast one (between Mach 5 to Mach +7).

The FC/ASW final specs should be defined Q2/2020.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:42 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus Shinra View Post
I'm not sure it swallows that much of the SSN budget, if only because the development and procurement cycles for submarines are longer in France than in UK or US, so the SSN gets the experience from the SSK. When you consider both the size and the hybrid propulsion system of the Suffren, for example, it's quite clear it benefitted a lot from the Scorpene know-how, and vice-versa for the Barracuda Shortfin.

Unlike most if not all other countries, our SSK and SSN are roughly the same size (hell, Rubis had a smaller displacement than Surcouf...), which makes a lot of the work for one usable in the other. Which, of course, also means that our SSN are less effective oceanic fleet units compared to dedicated ones (I was astonished at the small size of the SSBN I visited, it 's barely longer than a US SSN).


It might not be the same way exactly here. For example, DCNS built the demonstrator for the Gowind stealth corvette on its own money and even allowed the MN to have a go at it even though they weren't interested in buying it, knowing there would be a number of foreign customers for such a class. The MN loved having a lease on an advanced patrol ship for free, DCNS got to say their ship was sailor-tested and approved, and ended up selling almost two dozen to foreign customers.

I don't know how the budget goes for the SSK R&D, but it could be similar.
Our mindset is very, very different from the Anglo one, for sure. The social status and the role of the engineer are pretty different compared to UK or US, and then there's how wit and sarcasm are perceived (it's an art here, open jousts being a wonderful sport the same way as the British art of understatement is deeply appreciated on your side of the pond and how both fly above US' head like a SR-71 or even offend them in our case despite how friendly it is from our POV), or the relation to the law (in the US, the written text is absolute, definitive and the point of all attentions, while in France, it's a lot more fluid, with the intent being above the letter a lot more often, as well as interpersonal relationships going above the text itself, all the way to Constitutional debates - the way we consider our Constitution would give aneurysm to most law scholars in the US).
Heh, not that sure about the validity of very long range subsonic AShM. It requires uninterrupted communications for one hour or so, which is asking a lot from the opponent.

Some interesting points raised, when it comes to France R&D my knowledge is limited i specialize in logistics and supply.

I can see the SSK and SSN were built in parallel a lot of the stuff that goes into all the European projects gets moved around by people like me, its a massive cycle and its the same for UK projects, for example the steel that went into the QE mainly came from Germany, it was formed in the UK hence the capability to claim UK steel.

If the SSN and SSK are run parallel then yes i can see that being a merit to the budget, if it is as simple as switching a reactor for diesel engines then yeah i see that.

I have done a part of FOST on the Rubis class they do have a lot of short comings they failed my section of FOST but we did kind of expect that because we were trailing something new and it didn't work (not the crew or boats fault)

The only french SSBN ive been on is in Cherbourg the Le Redoubtable i have not been on the current ones.

The lease thing with the Gowind that is something similar to what BAe did with some OPVs its a good way to do it but it comes with issues.

I have no idea about the French constitution or laws tbh most countries laws are mind ####s including the UK

I have my apprehensions about TASM as well but right now thats about the best option for long range AShM problem being is as you pointed out its subsonic and has a lot of idiosyncrasies it can easily be intercepted by an opponent so is it any good? like harpoon i think their day has long gone.

Think i covered all your points
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Old 11-24-2019, 05:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitan View Post
Some interesting points raised, when it comes to France R&D my knowledge is limited i specialize in logistics and supply.

I can see the SSK and SSN were built in parallel a lot of the stuff that goes into all the European projects gets moved around by people like me, its a massive cycle and its the same for UK projects, for example the steel that went into the QE mainly came from Germany, it was formed in the UK hence the capability to claim UK steel.

If the SSN and SSK are run parallel then yes i can see that being a merit to the budget, if it is as simple as switching a reactor for diesel engines then yeah i see that.
It's not exactly a switch, except maybe for the Barracuda Shortfin sold to Australia, which is extremely close to the Suffren, but from what I understand from the Suffren's propulsion system, SSK tech is quite influential in it.

Quote:
The only french SSBN ive been on is in Cherbourg the Le Redoubtable i have not been on the current ones.
Téméraire was surprisingly confortable in the accomodations I saw, and I appreciated visiting it after seeing Wolf's Call, looking at what was correct and what wasn't. Let's just say that Wolf's Call was as incorrect on the SSBN's CIC as it was correct on the SSN's CIC. I mean, the production crew got to board a Rubis, take pictures inside the CIC and after security filtered which ones they could keep, they litterally rebuilt a 1:1 mock-up of the Rubis' CIC for shooting the scenes, but then, you probably guessed it, having been onboard a Rubis. The Triomphant's CIC is quite different from the one shown in the movie, though some other scenes inside it are closer to reality.
Quote:
I have no idea about the French constitution or laws tbh most countries laws are mind ####s including the UK
I started studying our legal system a bit last year, and I found it fascinating to compare how the people relate to law and government in various countries. It tells a lot about the national mindsets.
Quote:
I have my apprehensions about TASM as well but right now thats about the best option for long range AShM problem being is as you pointed out its subsonic and has a lot of idiosyncrasies it can easily be intercepted by an opponent so is it any good? like harpoon i think their day has long gone.
Yeah, TASM is cheap and simple, so it does allow a submarine to have a shipkilling capability on cooperative targets at long ranges, which is good, I'll admit. I just wish we went through with the ANF back in the Nineties, a conventional anti-ship variant of the 500 km - Mach 3 ASMP-A. Legend says that the US pressured us a bit to cancel the program, not wanting to see that kind of missile being sold to tinpot dictators of all kind, and offered to sell us the three Hawkeye we have for CdG as a carrot for that.


ASMP-A is pretty damn expensive, but if we could get an AShM variant out of it, perhaps with reduced performance compared to its nuclear brother, it might make for a superb shipkiller. But then, we get in the "what if" field. *goes back to his voxel SSBN in From The Depths to get his dose of "what if"*

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Think i covered all your points
Yep! Thanks!
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