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Old 07-05-17, 08:16 AM   #1
alex1122
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Default Soviet subs tactics

Hi guys,

I have some questions and i hope some of you can answer them.
The soviet subs usually use a lot the active sonar, sometimes even before i have them on my passive sonar. But isn't it risky? They are exposing their location, most of the time too far to find me. Is that the normal tactic for their sub?

Thanks,
Alex
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Old 07-05-17, 08:25 AM   #2
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I don't know that it is a continuous use. But, a sub out forward in support of a convoy or a capital vessel (picket duty) would be quicker to light up, I'd think.

I got the impression that western boats were 10-15% quieter, so if the Capt. has a feeling...
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Old 07-05-17, 07:13 PM   #3
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It's pretty much your only tactic if you're in an old noisy boat with inferior sonar which goes for a lot of Soviet subs. You'll find however that the more modern, quieter subs like the Kilo's tend to stay very quiet indeed.

It's also a reasonable tactic to use if you're pretty sure something is out there that's detected you but you haven't detected it.
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Old 07-05-17, 07:44 PM   #4
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It doesn't seem to be working very well for the Soviets, but personally I've used similar tactics driving a Skipjack in '68.

Sometimes the passive just doesn't cut it, particularly when fighting other submarines (especially those damned diesels), and you want to daringly bait the enemy to fire at you and reveal its general position. Then you literally charge at them, getting out of the torp's way and closing the distance with the attacker.

You have to be very careful, though: if you're pinging around and the enemy happens to be lurking in your baffles, you won't realize they've fired at you until the fish is breathing down your neck. Sometimes even too late for any meaningful evasion to take place. That cost me the USS Scamp.
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Old 07-08-17, 12:17 AM   #5
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In the era that we're talking about (the 80s) the US had a significant acoustic advantage over the Soviets (until John Walker happened... scumbag). The VICTORS/DELTAS were noisy platforms, and US boats would routinely track them from well beyond 20 Kyds on passives alone.

The Russians always suspected it, and John Walker confirmed it for them. The average Soviet skipper assumed that, if he made contact with a US boat, he had already been tracked for several hours or even days.

With that kind of disadvantage, there is no way a Soviet boat would go active as much as these boats do in the game. The surface pukes? Sure. But not the subs. They had enough disadvantages to work with that going active and making it even harder to stay undetected (the true goal of any submarine) would have been a non-starter.

In game terms, however, it makes sure you don't steer in a random direction and never make contact.
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Old 07-09-17, 09:56 AM   #6
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Thanks guys for the answers,

I got your point but from my point of view, if a Soviet submarines begin to use the active sonar from the begining, this takes away the atmosphere that a submarine game, for me, must have: the hunter-prey atmosphere.
The enemy submarine immediately reveals itself using the active sonar and the battle is reduced then to shoot a torpedo (which usually centers and sinks the enemy) and avoids the torpedoes coming, if there is one. I've noticed that often they don't shoot back. I think, correct me if i'm wrong, that if an undetected submarine shoots at you, and you only detected the incoming torpedo, you can fire a torpedo on the bearing of the incoming one. They often don't do it. or maybe they can use their active sonar once the hear the incoming torp, to detect the us sub.
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Old 07-09-17, 11:07 AM   #7
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I was thinking to define the possible missions that can be considered. Not to argue in any way.

I wonder that if a capital warship, which includes some submarines would be forward escorted. Say a missile boat, cruise or ballistic, when leaving port, an escort would go forward to clear the area of threat forces, ie. US subs. Especially if the capital ship had a disadvantage against the US sub.

With such a disadvantage and the Soviet Commander/Skipper, in open waters commanding a group, had any inkling that a US sub was present, would they want to have a forward element go active to level the playing field?

Kind of an experienced submariner question about tactics of 30-40 years ago.

The next question, "is that modelled"?.
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Old 07-09-17, 02:09 PM   #8
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Soviet tactics differed throughout the years, the Soviet and now Russian navies have been based around the submarine even back to the 30's what you find it that while the Soviets led the field in some aspects technologically speaking they are some what behind and that's even today.

50's and 60's were more about power projection the first class of submarine launch in 1957 the November class were on paper superior to Nautilus in many respects, the K3 and her sisters could out run and out dive the Nautilus with ease after all Nautilus was a conventionally hulled vessel where as the K3 adopted a cigar shape hull.

K3 by Blair shaw, on Flickr

This is the actual K3 Leninsky Komsomol the first nuclear powered submarine for the soviet union


What set them apart was what made that fight particularly interesting, while the Soviet boat can out run and out dive the Nautilus she herself had a far superior sensor kit which meant she heard the opponent coming long before she herself was detected with that in mind it does mean that right there even with speed and depth the Nautilus had some advantage.

What we see in the Soviet navy between the early 50's right to mid 70's is a concept of open ocean engagement and by around 76 the Soviets realised that despite the numbers they would loose in this realm to the better equipped NATO forces.

When you look at Soviet boats specifically the 1st and 2nd generations they are somewhat clumsy looking the Echo lived up to its name that was one noisy boat for sure, but it had a weapon that was not yet placed fully onto western vessels and that was the cruise missile.

A scout vessel would go ahead this would be an older boat normally a diesel like a whiskey or Zulu class and act as a radar picket for a fleet (we saw this in 1961 during operation Okean)

IMG_0268 by Blair shaw, on Flickr

This is a Zulu IV class SSK and she is the only one left in existence the scout vessels would have been modified much like the Whiskey Canvas bag types we saw in the early 1960's

The scouts would highlight the incoming targets normally a carrier group and the Echo and Juliette would fire their missiles at a distance (normally the SS-N-3c Shaddock) and run away.

Today we saw the progression first from the Echo to the Charlie classes and to the present day the Massive Oscar II which has 24 SS-N-19 Shipwreck missiles, they will be progressed most likely by a SSGN version of the Yasen class armed with SS-N-26 Oniks

Oscar II SSGN by Blair shaw, on Flickr

As you can see this is one huge submarine and the square hatches you see are for the Missiles side mounted in pairs like a Slava has


The West did learn a lot about Russian made weapons in the 60's especially when the SS-N-2 Stynx missile hit and sunk the Israeli destroyer Elait it did accelerate western adoption of anti ship and anti air weapons its also led us to the anti missile missile systems we see today including the Phalanx, Goal keeper and AK130's

The first and second generation of submarines had inferior sensors so the drill was to for a barrier search ahead of any surface unit and use active sonar to drive away any NATO submarines, the Soviets were aware that there was a gap and they were trying to close it this is a big reason why you see so many different types of ASW units in the Soviet and now Russian navies it also shows you the importance they place on the submarine not only developing them and going all out to do so but also the anti submarine weapons that they deploy.

Come the 1980's a lot of the submarines from the 50's and earlier in some cases are obsolete the Russians knew they could not compete platform for platform so realised that the only way was by a tactic called sea denial.

As we can see today the Russian navy has few major surface platforms with a handful of large Cruisers and Destroyers and one single heavy aviation cruiser (Kuznetsov) again the Emphasis is on ASW we see that the Sovrenemmy which is a primary ASuW AAW platform some of which have been retired early yet the tandem unit the ones they operate along side for ASW purposes the Udaloys have not, We also see the Grisha Krivack classes all alive and well yet others like the Kresta and Kara's have long since been deleted.

We look to current builds and find that the Admiral Gorshkov, Neutashimmyy, and Buryan M are all mainly ASW ships.

The Soviet navy come late 70's started to realise that their submarines were not up to the task and retreated into a Bastion concept and by this time they have the platforms and weapons to be able to do so.

If you look at the earlier Yankee class the missile has a range of only around 1200-1600 miles it means that the submarine must run the GIUK and SOSUS gauntlet in order to deploy likely attracting the attention of a following NATO submarine, with the Advent of the Delta III and its very advanced version the Delta IV

Delta IV SSBN by Blair shaw, on Flickr

This is K84 Ekateringburg at Zapadnya Litsa on the Kola Peninsular


coupled with the Typhoons we then see a shift chance no more do we see open ocean deployments because weapons like the SS-N-20 and SS-N-23 can hit mainland america from their bases and thus eliminated the need for them to go to sea.

They found a new home under the ice and the noise the ice makes helps mask the ambient noise in some cases a submarine makes so it was a no brainier for the Soviets the design of the Typhoon reflects this greatly missiles forward and a very heavily reinforced sail which can puncture through 3 meter thick ice

Delta IV SSBN in the Arctic ice by Blair shaw, on Flickr

Delta IV SSBN in the Arctic ice by Blair shaw, on Flickr

This gives you some idea just how thick the Delta IV can break through

Now being under the ice means you have a few advantages but also some disadvantages, the Americans deploy the MK48 ADCAP torpedo and yes it is a brilliant weapon and a weapon the Russian do want to get hold of it is fully capable under ice to counter this the Russians prefer to stay outside the range of the MK48 and thus use the SS-N-16 Stallion which is similar to ASROC however you cannot fire it under the ice so in this field for me personally the American MK48 and the British Stingray have all the advantage.

Dispite being twin screwed both Typhoons and Delta IV's are said to be very quiet not quite to the level of the Ohio or Vanguard but almost there thanks to the above mentioned John Walker.

With the theft of the secrets the Russians called a halt to the Victor II production and developed the Victor III and later the Victor IV (heavily modified Victor III)

Victor IV ssn by Blair shaw, on Flickr

B414 Danill Moskoviskky pulling into port she is one of the later Victor IV and still in commission

The Victor III / IV and first batch of Akula's are en par in the realm of noise making as the 688i that a qu]antum leap, what walker also did is give them the keys to better their sonar systems, and we see this with the advent of the MGK-503 coupled with the Skat 3 (later Skat 3M and today it is the Barracuda M) towed sonar array which meant they had almost the same ability as western boats for passive detection, the only thing they lacked is a waterfall display system which does mean they are still disadvantaged.

Later boats with the help of Toshiba (who gave the Russians plans for new screw designs and tools to build them) from the late 70's would be rendered quieter with the new propellers and later Pump jets which we see on the Project 877V Kilo class Alrosa



Borrowed this from the net to explain the point this is Alrosa in Dry Dock in the Black sea showing her Pumpjet quite nicely

But in all cases the shift is clear the current Batch coming along such as Borei class use this technology, as does the American Seawolf Virigina classes the British Trafalgar and Astute so the Russians are still there just not in the numbers.

In the 80's Things did change Gorshkov died and a lot of boats such as the earlier first generation submarines were paid off grossly overdue in many cases, the Russians never really grasped the concept in the way the Americans do their whole ethos is based around sea denial and all the designs even today reflect this.

The tactics used have gone head over heels since the 60's but the primary use for the Russian fleet is to stop Amphibious landings and Submarine insertion it is also to protect the Nuclear Missile submarines hence why the Project 971 Akulas were hurried through production even in bankruptcy in the late 90's.

That said the role changed in the early 80's from one of open ocean offensiveness to close to home defensiveness after the realisation they couldn't match the west platform to platform.

The tactics employed such as crazy ivan are not needed any more given that the towed array is present on nearly all their current submarines and that goes for the 80's too a lot of boats did get retrofitted and in fact HMS Conqueror and Later HMS Splendid did retrieve two towed sonar arrays the Conks from some Polish Trawlers the Splendid from the back of a typhoon.

When i get more time i can call out some books i have that detail using drawings the tactics used by the Soviets not just in the 50's and 60's but also up to the 80's.
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Old 07-09-17, 02:39 PM   #9
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Thank-you, good write-up. Yeah, between Toshiba and John Walker, it was a leap forward.
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Old 07-09-17, 04:07 PM   #10
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I'm really surprised John Walker didn't get the death penalty. Toshiba-Kongsberg and the Walker spy ring were huge boons for the Soviet navy.
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Old 07-09-17, 04:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmr View Post
I'm really surprised John Walker didn't get the death penalty. Toshiba-Kongsberg and the Walker spy ring were huge boons for the Soviet navy.
Because he likely did a plea bargain dont forget his son who was on a carrier was also spying and he worked in cryptography :O

The damage they did to the UK and USA is immense a lot of technology used in the USA is shared between the UK and USA so it also affected the Royal Navy too
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Old 07-09-17, 04:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadriss View Post
In the era that we're talking about (the 80s) the US had a significant acoustic advantage over the Soviets (until John Walker happened... scumbag). The VICTORS/DELTAS were noisy platforms, and US boats would routinely track them from well beyond 20 Kyds on passives alone.

The Russians always suspected it, and John Walker confirmed it for them. The average Soviet skipper assumed that, if he made contact with a US boat, he had already been tracked for several hours or even days.

With that kind of disadvantage, there is no way a Soviet boat would go active as much as these boats do in the game. The surface pukes? Sure. But not the subs. They had enough disadvantages to work with that going active and making it even harder to stay undetected (the true goal of any submarine) would have been a non-starter.

In game terms, however, it makes sure you don't steer in a random direction and never make contact.
Spoken like a true boomer sailor...
I made twelve deployments up north and yes, they really might employ active. Especially during a baffle clear...
Now though, with better sensors afforded to them, no so much.

But as you know, active is not the 'God like' sensor most people think it is...


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Oh, I was also qualified Sonar Sup....
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Old 07-09-17, 05:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kapitan View Post
Because he likely did a plea bargain dont forget his son who was on a carrier was also spying and he worked in cryptography :O

The damage they did to the UK and USA is immense a lot of technology used in the USA is shared between the UK and USA so it also affected the Royal Navy too
There are two sides to it though, not trying to stick up for old Johnny Walker Red but I remember on a documentary. Older Russian guy (possibly an Admiral) talked about how astounding it was to learn, on one hand how superior and radical the advantage was that the Americans had in terms of technology, and on the other hand the realization despite these advantages they had not decided to wage war from their position of strength which went against all Soviet propaganda of the west being hell-bent on the destruction of the Soviet Union and is people, no matter what.

The whole gist of it was, being so plugged into what the US Navy was saying / doing / thinking (thanks to Walker of course) convinced some of these Soviet higher-up types that these Americans, in fact, were not so eager to begin a third-world war, because had they been they would have already!

IIRC the program had something to do with the context of Able Archer 83, I'll have to dig through the DVR and see if I can find it again.
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Old 07-10-17, 12:23 AM   #14
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Awesome post Kapitan, thanks.

I've always been curious if the super-cavitating Shkval torpedo was a tactical game changer or not. Any thoughts?

At first I was like, "This thing is instant death" but after thinking about it a bit it seems like it's almost a step backwards having no real control or guidance?

300km/h is pretty nuts though and I guess it's not that hard guessing where a Supercarrier will be in the next few minutes but hitting a sub seems harder.
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Old 07-10-17, 10:50 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex1122 View Post
Hi guys,

I have some questions and i hope some of you can answer them.
The soviet subs usually use a lot the active sonar, sometimes even before i have them on my passive sonar. But isn't it risky? They are exposing their location, most of the time too far to find me. Is that the normal tactic for their sub?

Thanks,
Alex
Active mode for range detection for launch A/S missile "Viyuga". In elderly time our subs can not have range for launch a/s missile in passive mode and need 1 -2 ping for range. For torpedoes not need use sonar in active mode. About "Viyuga" you can read: http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-4-20-00000083-000-0-0#003 It is soviet analog US a/s missile "Subroc".
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