Help with manual targeting

[FrisianCommander]

I have gone through the sticky threads and have seen a few videos on manual targeting. Unfortunately, I haven't found them very helpful. Indeed, I didn't find the layout very helpful either combined with some of the jargon.

Basically, I need some help with the manual targeting. I thought the second video of Werner Sobe was useful, except that it was missing a few things. I really need a step-by-step instruction to get this right and preferably without having to do many hand calculations myself. Not that I'm afraid of it or would mind it, but it would help me get a challenge while not feeling like having to climb a mountain each time.

Can anyone help me with this and perhaps fill in the blanks that are in WernerSobe's video? The video is below.

[yubba]

get this mod it will be very helpful ranging, https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=3334

have you seen the attack map,,

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by yubba

get this mod it will be very helpful ranging, https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=3334

have you seen the attack map,,

Was this mod included in the FOTRS mod? CapnScurvy was listed as a contributor to FOTRS.




edit> Incidentally the download link for this is no longer valid

[propbeanie]

The "Optical Correction" parts are in FotRSU, not the centered-targeting of the moved conning towers. His [REL] thread is "Optical Targeting Correction revised March 2012". All "views" in the FotRSU mod for the game are as in OTC. They did some site maintenance here on SubSim the other day, and I am getting errors when attempting to download that file also, but that is for the v1.4 game and the v1.4 of RFB anyway...

My understanding of the OP is that he wants the holes filled in for the WernerSobe vid though, and is not looking for a mod, as cool as the mod is... He doesn't like the math involved either - nor do I, which is why I almost always go with a quick 90 attack, aka: Dick O'Kane attack, or whatever your favorite skipper's name is...



That is linked to in Rockin Robbin's "Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks" posting from a while back. That vid is listed below the WernerSobe vidz, and there are several others of use for a skipper... Every once in a while, I get a hair where one shouldn't be, and try full-on manual targeting, but I usually waste over half of the loadout, and then finally give up after only hitting things I didn't aim at, and go back to the 90... patience is the main attribute required though, which ever manual targetting method you use, more so than the math. You still have to position your boat correctly, based upon correctly positioning the enemy vessel. Get either wrong, and it doesn't matter what method you use...

[Bubblehead1980]

Okay, hope this helps.


Three most important pieces of data are:

Angle on the Bow

Speed

Range to target

First-Ascertain the speed. Easiest and most reliable way(until you become seasoned enough to estimate speed accurately based on visual observation, accounting for errors with spread of torpedoes as in real life) is to use the pencil on nav map to make an X on the targets icon, start the stop watch. When three minutes has elapsed, make an X on current position. Now, measure the distance traveled by drawing a line from first X to second X. 900 yards, means speed is 9 knots. 500 yards, speed is 5 knots. Easy enough?

I typically play without contacts so eyeball the speed and verify based on sound and radar data as well as my own plotting using the three minute method. More prone to errors without the continuous map contact updates, but works well with enough experience.

Second- Estimate Angle on Bow (AOB). Again, once play enough get good at estimating the angles accurately enough for a proper firing solution but if in doubt, use the protractor on the nav map to measure the angle from target's bow to the bow or stern of the submarine(depending on if firing bow or stern shot)

In a traditional approach and attack on a target. I first try to gauge the AOB. If you can't do this visually and have map icons enabled, can go to map, use the protractor to gain the AOB by measuring the angle of the targets bow to the submarine(bow if using bow tubes, stern if using stern tubes). Enter this into the AOB dial.

Third-Range. To get a solution fed into the TDC(Torpedo Data Computer) quickly, go ahead and hit send to TDC button for the speed and AOB. Use to dial to turn an estimated range and send to TDC. Then hit the Position Keeper(PK) button on the TDC. Further observations can use stadimeter, radar etc to enter better range estimates. You are now tracking the target.


Fourth(if have time) recheck your fire control data. If have time, check their speed, check for any last minute changes. Make sure tube outer doors are open. Not being open delays firing and can cause misses.

Fifth- Methods of aim. Okay, you have a good solution, time to fire. Outer doors are open? How to aim? I use to methods used by actual US skippers. One is the traditional final bearing sent via periscope or TBT to TDC and fired. Wait 6-10 seconds but typically 10 on most mid to large sized targets. This creates a spread. The PK on TDC is continuously updating the fire control info. Alternately, you can use the spread dial on the TDC. Fire on aimed at middle of target, use dial to adjust 1 degree starboard, one degree aft etc.

Second method, which Richard O Kane typically used is to aim torpedoes as individual shots, meaning a new bearing sent to TDC for each shot, even if on the same target. Plan to fire three torpedoes on a mid sized merchant? Send final bearing to TDC, fire one at middle of target. Move scope crosshairs to forward mast of target, send bearing and fire two, place crosshairs on aft mast , fire three.

Hope this helps. Not as difficult as it seems at first. Of course all kinds of variables but these basics will help.

[yubba]

the pain in the butt is setting range over 1200 without that mod mentioned

[Gray Lensman]

Though the quick 90 is so absolutely satisfying in its results and I use it a lot. I tend to believe the way the tools in SH4 are used to set up the 90 are a bit of the stretch of the imagination in their "exactness", especially the 3 minute pencil/compass combination to find the speed.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by yubba

the pain in the butt is setting range over 1200 without that mod mentioned

Have you ever tried building TGT DIALS TO PK FIX? It might be just what the doctor ordered... lol Even better is CapnScurvy's separate range dial, as in his OTC, coupled with Nicolas and ddrgn's mods. As Gray Lensman states though: "I tend to believe the way the tools in SH4 are used to set up the 90 are a bit of the stretch of the imagination in their 'exactness'". But even still, I manage to miss quite often... lol

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

Though the quick 90 is so absolutely satisfying in its results and I use it a lot. I tend to believe the way the tools in SH4 are used to set up the 90 are a bit of the stretch of the imagination in their "exactness", especially the 3 minute pencil/compass combination to find the speed.

I agree. I wish they had found a better way. Even with mods the asking the crew for speed based on periscope observations never works properly, which is a shame as it would be more realistic method, basically how worked in real life.

However, the pencil/compass with contacts is a great learning tool. Like I said, I often play without contacts and can plot using pencil/compass with great accuracy. Seasoned enough to "eyeball" the speed as well, in most cases.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by FrisianCommander

I have gone through the sticky threads and have seen a few videos on manual targeting. Unfortunately, I haven't found them very helpful. Indeed, I didn't find the layout very helpful either combined with some of the jargon.

Basically, I need some help with the manual targeting. I thought the second video of Werner Sobe was useful, except that it was missing a few things. I really need a step-by-step instruction to get this right and preferably without having to do many hand calculations myself. Not that I'm afraid of it or would mind it, but it would help me get a challenge while not feeling like having to climb a mountain each time.

Can anyone help me with this and perhaps fill in the blanks that are in WernerSobe's video?

I rewatched this video again now that I've had plenty of play time under my belt and it was rather interesting to note some things that I missed earlier (a few years back). Kinda like you, when I first watched it, it appears to be missing something in the details.

After identifying the ship type (which he sends to the TDC), he used the stadimeter to give him a range readout. What's missing when he does this is he's not showing that he is marking a point on the Nav map that corresponds to the relative bearing from the sub and the distance obtained from the stadimeter. When he does the second mark, he does the same thing marking a second point on the Nav map that again corresponds to the relative bearing. (Note this could be done even without Map updates enabled, which is far more realistic). He now has a course marked on his Nav map for the enemy ship which he determined to be north.

It's also possible he already knew the course was North, since his video doesn't show any interruption (back/forth) to the Nav Map.

At this point in the video he just tells you that he determined the course to be North and uses that to adjust the AOB value for the TDC.

If he timed the marks to be exactly 3 minutes apart, he also obtained a close reading for the speed for the TDC.

What was really interesting for me, (that I missed for some reason earlier), was his adjustment of the AOB dial in the (upper right corner of the screen) to make the TDC ship pointer (on the upper left corner of the screen) correspond with a course of due North (marked on the dial and not pointing straight up). Before, I had always just adjusted the AOB (upper right corner) to correspond to where my lead angle setting was when I was lined up to shoot (generally a zero gyro shot on a fast 90, but sometimes an angled zero gyro shot), not really understanding it's usefulness for the TDC combined with the red Position Keeper button which I never use because it would foul up my shot. It probably fouled up my shot because I wasn't adjusting the AOB like Werner did to make the TDC target ship point in the direction of its course.

Hope this is not too confusing. I couldn't find any other more detailed tutorials in regards to how to manually set up a shot like Werner's video. He's good. This makes me want to retry the manual (no map update) method myself. LOL

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

I rewatched this video again now that I've had plenty of play time under my belt and it was rather interesting to note some things that I missed earlier (a few years back). Kinda like you, when I first watched it, it appears to be missing something in the details.

After identifying the ship type (which he sends to the TDC), he used the stadimeter to give him a range readout. What's missing when he does this is he's not showing that he is marking a point on the Nav map that corresponds to the relative bearing from the sub and the distance obtained from the stadimeter. When he does the second mark, he does the same thing marking a second point on the Nav map that again corresponds to the relative bearing. (Note this could be done even without Map updates enabled, which is far more realistic). He now has a course marked on his Nav map for the enemy ship which he determined to be north.

It's also possible he already knew the course was North, since his video doesn't show any interruption (back/forth) to the Nav Map.

At this point in the video he just tells you that he determined the course to be North and uses that to adjust the AOB value for the TDC.

If he timed the marks to be exactly 3 minutes apart, he also obtained a close reading for the speed for the TDC.

What was really interesting for me, (that I missed for some reason earlier), was his adjustment of the AOB dial in the (upper right corner of the screen) to make the TDC ship pointer (on the upper left corner of the screen) correspond with a course of due North (marked on the dial and not pointing straight up). Before, I had always just adjusted the AOB (upper right corner) to correspond to where my lead angle setting was when I was lined up to shoot (generally a zero gyro shot on a fast 90, but sometimes an angled zero gyro shot), not really understanding it's usefulness for the TDC combined with the red Position Keeper button which I never use because it would foul up my shot. It probably fouled up my shot because I wasn't adjusting the AOB like Werner did to make the TDC target ship point in the direction of its course.

Hope this is not too confusing. I couldn't find any other more detailed tutorials in regards to how to manually set up a shot like Werner's video. He's good. This makes me want to retry the manual (no map update) method myself. LOL

In most cases you don't have to update the AOB once the PK in enabled. That was the major advantage of US TDC is had the PK section which continuously updated torpedoes until moment of firing. Of course, it depends on how accurate the information entered was. I have had to "dive and fire" multiple occasions, so firing on last bearings alone while under water and thanks to PK it keep data updating, scored four out of four hits from 2200 yards last time. Actually a pretty cool feature and glad it is in the sim.

Taking it a step further, with the 3d TDC and radar mod in TMO, have scored hits based on radar information alone at night on surface from 7500-8500 yards. (Large convoy screen unable to get in close) . PK played a role in this for sure.

[Gray Lensman]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

In most cases you don't have to update the AOB once the PK in enabled. That was the major advantage of US TDC is had the PK section which continuously updated torpedoes until moment of firing. Of course, it depends on how accurate the information entered was. I have had to "dive and fire" multiple occasions, so firing on last bearings alone while under water and thanks to PK it keep data updating, scored four out of four hits from 2200 yards last time. Actually a pretty cool feature and glad it is in the sim.

Taking it a step further, with the 3d TDC and radar mod in TMO, have scored hits based on radar information alone at night on surface from 7500-8500 yards. (Large convoy screen unable to get in close) . PK played a role in this for sure.

That was the interesting part about Werner's video. He wasn't really adjusting the AOB per se, he was just using the AOB adjustment dial to initially align the heading of the enemy ship on the TDC to its course (North) and then the rest of his video showed the TDC/PK combination automatically allowing for own ship course changes as you say. I overlooked that usage when I viewed the video a couple of years back.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

That was the interesting part about Werner's video. He wasn't really adjusting the AOB per se, he was just using the AOB adjustment dial to initially align the heading of the enemy ship on the TDC to its course (North) and then the rest of his video showed the TDC/PK combination automatically allowing for own ship course changes as you say. I overlooked that usage when I viewed the video a couple of years back.

Got ya. I didn't watch the video(recently anyway) and misunderstood what you were saying.

[thewiraffeko]

I am getting errors when attempting to download that file also, but that is for the v1.4 game and the v1.4 of RFB anyway.

[FrisianCommander]

Originally Posted by Gray Lensman

I rewatched this video again now that I've had plenty of play time under my belt and it was rather interesting to note some things that I missed earlier (a few years back). Kinda like you, when I first watched it, it appears to be missing something in the details.

After identifying the ship type (which he sends to the TDC), he used the stadimeter to give him a range readout. What's missing when he does this is he's not showing that he is marking a point on the Nav map that corresponds to the relative bearing from the sub and the distance obtained from the stadimeter. When he does the second mark, he does the same thing marking a second point on the Nav map that again corresponds to the relative bearing. (Note this could be done even without Map updates enabled, which is far more realistic). He now has a course marked on his Nav map for the enemy ship which he determined to be north.

It's also possible he already knew the course was North, since his video doesn't show any interruption (back/forth) to the Nav Map.

At this point in the video he just tells you that he determined the course to be North and uses that to adjust the AOB value for the TDC.

If he timed the marks to be exactly 3 minutes apart, he also obtained a close reading for the speed for the TDC.

What was really interesting for me, (that I missed for some reason earlier), was his adjustment of the AOB dial in the (upper right corner of the screen) to make the TDC ship pointer (on the upper left corner of the screen) correspond with a course of due North (marked on the dial and not pointing straight up). Before, I had always just adjusted the AOB (upper right corner) to correspond to where my lead angle setting was when I was lined up to shoot (generally a zero gyro shot on a fast 90, but sometimes an angled zero gyro shot), not really understanding it's usefulness for the TDC combined with the red Position Keeper button which I never use because it would foul up my shot. It probably fouled up my shot because I wasn't adjusting the AOB like Werner did to make the TDC target ship point in the direction of its course.

Hope this is not too confusing. I couldn't find any other more detailed tutorials in regards to how to manually set up a shot like Werner's video. He's good. This makes me want to retry the manual (no map update) method myself. LOL

Thank you very much, Gray Lensman. I think you exactly tried to do what I asked: fill in the gaps that WernerSobe left out because I couldn't understand where he got his conclusions/information from.

However, it is still a little bit difficult to understand without seeing it happening in front of me. I have been thinking about this and perhaps you or someone else is willing to help me in the folllowing way: we go to Discord and I go to Twitch (or YouTube) and I stream my game. Then you can tell me how it should be done. Could that be an idea?

I look forward hearing from you.