UK Politics Thread

[Jimbuna]

[Jimbuna]

^ No, not a traitor but after almost a quarter of a century as a card carrying member I now sit firmly in the disenfranchised section of a growing number of former party members who feel bitter at the way Corbyn and his loony left have taken control of the party thereby denying the working class in the UK of deserved representation and exposing them to right wing Tory control.

[Jimbuna]

Rebecca Long-Bailey has won the backing of the Unite trade union in her bid to succeed Jeremy Corbyn as Labour leader.

The shadow business secretary now needs just one more union or affiliate group to endorse her to confirm her place on the members' ballot.

Unite's general secretary, Len McCluskey, said Mrs Long-Bailey had the "brains and the brilliance" to take on PM Boris Johnson.

The union will also back Richard Burgon for the vacant deputy leader post.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51235025

[Catfish]

Jim, sorry i thought i had immediately deleted it
I agree it must be difficult to see standards and beliefs be thrown overboard, especially when a man becomes the labour "leader" (word still has a bad taste) who you do not like for various reasons.
He does not enough to make the anti-Israel fraction in the party shut up, and he sympathised with the IRA, so there's that.

but

feel bitter at the way Corbyn and his loony left have taken control of the party thereby denying the working class in the UK of deserved representation and exposing them to right wing Tory control

So voting for the Tories or Farage because Labour disappointed you?

Labour itself was never right-wing. Also, Corbyn was/is the only one actor on the political stage who does not support the conservative government's austerity policies.
To the Daily Mail, Sun, Express, Fox News and all those right wing media by those media with their own agenda Corbyn is painted as a dangerous socialist because he would move "the needle" to the left when it has been steadily moving right for decades.

In Thatcher view he is certainly a socialist. So is he really? Maybe not quite as left wing as the usual Daily Mail, Sun or Express want you to believe. (Although i do not know if you even read this, but you quote them often enough - or is it for laughs?)

Corbyn's target is to get unemployment numbers down. Not such a bad thing? And unemployment is expensive for the state.
He does not advocate a state-run economy, no one does that anymore. But certain parts, yes, and that makes sense.

Free market and "trickle down economics" have shown some obvious truths:

When the consumer can decide what to buy from different competing suppliers, the free market works. But it does not work with certain parts like medical services, public transport or energy supplies. I would add that certain parts of telecommunication should not be privatised for several reasons, or the state-network should at least have its own independent system to control and fend off cyber attacks, and certainly in case of war.

Rural areas suffer from straight economic cost benefit analyses. The privatisation of public services e.g. in the midlands does not save money, on the contrary.
Like in England, the privatisation of public transport has desroyed much of the infrastructure that has been built up by public taxes before. This is nothing else than expropriation! And when it has all been rendered defunct - like in England and Germany - it is being socialised again and repaired by fresh tax money because the companies never intended to maintain or invest.

And "trickle down" economics.. less taxes for the real rich, or supporting/pushing big corporations withdraw money from circulation, it is taken out of the overall economy. It has never worked in the last 40 years.
Privatise profit, socialise losses. And people still fall for that. We need something better.

As i see it Corbyn’s last manifesto is not so bad. Compared to real common sense and another time long lost it is classic mixed economy, and centre-left.
He is of course clumsy and not a media man, but to call him a terrorist and rabidly left?

[Jimbuna]

Jim, sorry i thought i had immediately deleted it

I am able to read deletions Kai but I'm honestly not offended, we all have a right to an opinion.

So voting for the Tories or Farage because Labour disappointed you?

I've never voted for either.

We need something better.

On that we can both most definitely agree

but to call him a terrorist and rabidly left?

No, not a terrorist but certainly someone who has sympathies with so many who are and he is by his own admission a left wing socialist.

[Jimbuna]

[Jimbuna]

A commemorative 50p coin marking the UK's departure from the EU has been unveiled by Chancellor Sajid Javid.

The coins bear the inscription "Peace, prosperity and friendship with all nations" and the date of 31 January.

Mr Javid had first ordered production of the coins in advance of the UK's original 31 October departure date.

But the Brexit delay meant about a million coins had to be melted down and the metal put aside until a new exit date was confirmed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51250753

As the saying goes....If at first you don't succeed

[JU_88]

@Catfish, My Mother knew Jerry Corbyn persoanlly, and had quite a few interactions with him in the late 90's (connected with a crossrail project forcing the closure of the school she worked at)
and he is 100% a self confessed marxist/socialist, Its not a right-wing tabloid conspiricy he has been very vocal about it.

and although hes a pretty nice guy, he is not really well read up on anything else besides that ideology, so he is rather naive. (he also isn't the humourous type and doesnt really understand jokes)
As to how/what he would have (or tried to) implemented policywise if he became PM, its really any bodies guess. But there is little reason to suspect he would have had any more of success than those before him.

Anyway, while many still side with Labour on ecomonics over the tories, they do not side with them on culture -which is the bigger issue right now.
The stance of being interationalist to the point of be anti-nationalist against the nation you hope to lead is obviously political suicide.
It wasnt even so much a Right/ left wing issue, it was that Labour effectivley bet Against the nation while the tories bet ON it.
The Nations of the world have all survived centuries for a reason, shared values and some level of self proctionism.
An endless lecture on how Britain has sinned and how we must repent, only goes down well with a very left leaning progressive minority. Now while some of it might be true -its still unhelpful as it still just a platform of negativity which is a natural repellant.

'Everything you've built up to this point is terrible and we are all inherently bad - but vote for us to fix it all ....and fix you.' not a good message.

[Jimbuna]

Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar has suggested the EU will be the "stronger team" in post-Brexit trade talks with the UK.

Comparing negotiations to a football match, he suggested the EU would be at an advantage due to its larger population and market.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51260282

Leo, you may not still be around after February eighth so I'd respectfully suggest you keep your powder dry till after that.

[Catfish]

@Ju88 Thank you for taking the time, since i am not so fluent with party internals in England this is really good information, especially about Corbyn's personality

Originally Posted by JU_88

[...] Anyway, while many still side with Labour on ecomonics over the tories, they do not side with them on culture -which is the bigger issue right now.
The stance of being interationalist to the point of be anti-nationalist against the nation you hope to lead is obviously political suicide.

The first part i can understand, austerity degrading infrastructure and having to close down all kinds of facilities due to lack of money is - apart from reducing debt as a side-effect - not very popular. So Labour promised to change it all out of the blue, and in an unconvincing way.

But against culture? Your english culture? Anti nationalist, against the nation, is that true for Labour? Or is it historical facts trickling down are beginning to gnaw on the superiority and glory of the Empire? Is it not only against the recent right-wing shift and populist crying that some mistake for patriotism? What about Cummings? This man is a maniac, a pathological case.
I'll give you that the left is usually less patriotic than the right, but what about this right-shift everywhere. Wouldn't some neutral stance do? Would the people really appreciate a hard right like in the US, or didn't they maybe fall for the century-old trap of the rich and their spin-doctors? You read some of "The Sun" or the "Express" and then have to helplessly accept that lots of people really read and believe that.

[...] The Nations of the world have all survived centuries for a reason, shared values and some level of self proctionism.

Ye olde argument for isolation. I guess it is as old as mankind, however you could argue that tribes are now better off and fared quite well in working together, i think.

I understand why Labour lost so much, but for me, what is going on in England since 2016, is completely beyond of what i thought of England and its inhabitants before. Let me only say this was "not a positive experience". It has not much to do with the left or the right either.

This https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/m...loathe-england is a dutch essay and not exactly my opinion (being german and all that), but i agree to most points and admit my perception of England has also changed. I have this change seen in a lot of people recently, not only because of the brexiter xenophobic war talk, but because of real (if most verbal) attacks following the referendum in England, in London.

What has been said by a lot of brexiters left and right is completely unacceptable, from sheer lies, not only about the EU, to racism. This will reverberate, changing the general attitude of some. Maybe the tiniest bit of repentance and less war talk would be helpful.


edit: and now i have turned the Labour party discussion into an anti-brexit rant - i'm sorry. I am still interested in Labour and what it was and is supposed to be now, to become electable again in your eyes.

[Jimbuna]

The Fatah-linked Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade unleashed the first ever female Palestinian suicide bomber - 28-year-old divorcee Wafa Idris. She detonated a 22-pound bomb outside a shoe store in the centre of Jerusalem, killing an 81-year-old man and injuring more than 100 others.

Idris had been a volunteer for the Palestine Red Crescent, a humanitarian group. She had no known previous links to militant groups, but the suicide attack turned her into a cult hero across the Arab world. A football tournament in the West Bank was later named after her. Following her death, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs unleashed three more female suicide bombers in the same year.

The elderly man killed in Idris's attack was Pinhas Tokatli, an amateur painter who was on his way home after buying paints. He left a wife and four children.

Two years after Mr Tokatli's murder, a backbench Labour MP praised Al-Aqsa leader Marwan Barghouti as an "ambassador for peace". That same year Barghouti was tried and sentenced to five life terms in Israel for various terrorist offences. That backbench MP was Jeremy Corbyn. In the years following Barghouti's arrest and incarceration Corbyn supported at least five early day motions in the House of Commons calling for his release. On his website he referred to Barghouti as an "iconic figure".

Just saying

[Jimbuna]

Britain needs a radical redistribution of wealth and opportunity and an end to the "monopoly of power" in Westminster, Sir Keir Starmer has said.

Ahead of a speech, the Labour leadership candidate argued that goal could be reached with a system "built on the principle of federalism".

Returning to campaigning after a week's break, he also promised to address the "underlying causes" of Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51257432

[Catfish]

^^ re post 12341: http://theconversation.com/palestine...le-east-106408

edit: Apart from Corbyn's peronality and his political leaning along with some of the party, things are much more complex. Of course you can look at an assassination and no one will deny that this is awful and causes innocent civilians' casualties. But this is seeing it as an isolated moment in history without context to what happened before. There are some underlying reasons, even if some want to forget it.

Those suicidal attacks are awful and idiotic, and they are also an act of despair. Israel just builds its settlements everywhere, especially in disputed areas, and thus creates a status quo that cannot be changed anymore.

Did i ever say "read 'The little drummer girl' by LeCarrée", less than ten times i mean.
There is guilt to be found everywhere, but all just go on killing and denying, and never sit down together to find a solution. This will all get more bitter, and more of such things happening.

[JU_88]

Catfish, the the shifts and swings in culure over the past 50-60 years in the Anglosphere (English speaking nations) have been a little different to those of continental Europe.
It is indeed easier to understand how we reached this point if you live here.
the shift to a more pro nationalist (but thankfully still quite liberal) postion is a reaction to a reaction to a reaction.. you have have to really trace it all back over the best part of a century because its not surface level.
Everything from the Church, the hippies, the punks, Thatcherism /Regansim, globalism, civil rights movements, feminsm, mass-immigration, middle class expansion, 2008 crash & Austerity the econimic switch from industry to services and rise of technology (gasps for breath) all plays a part.

None of this current shift is particuarlly suprising, ultimatley one set of values collapes when it has failed too many people -and another swoops in.
The more socialist/interationalist progressives types hung them selves by over preaching morality though the lense of intersectionality and increasingly condemmed anyone who didnt tow the line.

It translated in to a situation where a successful accademic cosmopolitian middle class now had the means to berate and brow beat a less educated working class majority and appear moraly superior while doing it

E.g Your culture and values are horrible, tear down the borders' toxic masculinity this, white privilige that, and if you love the nation or ANY non progressive values we are going to insinuate that you are far right' etc.
Try 10-20 years of that^ being thrown about through Academia, social media, pop culture and politics on a regular basis -and presented as the only truley acceptable world view to hold, ....what did we think what going come of that? progressive utopia? Its no way to get people on your side.

It muddied the waters between nationalists, old skool liberals and conservatives and pretty much drove them in to an unholy alliance.
I dont think its strictly a right/left divide in the most traditonal sense, its something that evolved (or devolved) from that. but its something a little bit different. Unironic comparisons with Nazis and Soviets doesnt really apply.

[Jimbuna]