Tracking Party

twon01 · 03-11-20, 10:08 PM

Hello All!

I would like to say that I've been a lurker for a very long time, and have posted a couple of posts throughout the years, but mostly am able to find all the answers I need from other's questions.

What I am looking for is some information as to what the real procedures the tracking parties would use to build a track and fire solution. What I would like to do is simulate the procedure on graph paper that is on my desk rather than using the map in game. Is this possible? I have been scouring the internet for the past week looking for information as to how this was done, what tools they used and what information they used to build a firing solution. I cannot visualize how this was done on the boat during a cruise. I loved reading Dick O'Kane's books talking about the tracking party and working the slide rules to come up with solutions, I would just like to try to put myself into that situation and see if I could rise to the challenge (I'm not holding my breath).

I have read the various manuals found on maritime.org, downloaded the template for the solution solver (so I can build one to use). I did steal my kids rule, protractor and compass...do I need anything else? Any help or even better does anyone have photos of them doing something similar?

Any help is greatly appreciated and I would like to say a huge thanks to all those who have dedicated their time to bettering this sim...thank you modders!!!!

~Anthony

Aktungbby · 03-11-20, 10:53 PM

Twon01!

Vox165 · 03-15-20, 10:45 AM

Anthony , I have similar interest. I found the "Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual, 1950" (Maritime.org ) answered my questions. This particular manual beaks down the positions, responsilbilites and actions of "Duties of the Fire Control Party"on a fleet type sub.

Another way I investigated the topic was to look at the development history of Combat Information Center (CIC) on U.S. warships. My impression, is that as the number of sensors (radars etc) , weapon types, and threats increased, particularly aircraft, the complexity of battlefield required the CIC of warships and subs to developed in parallel.

I did similar to what you are doing with the old sim: Destroyer Command . ie developed my own CIC outside the game's using graph paper etc. I found a stop watch useful. I also used various logarithmic papers. You can track your sub and targets over short distances.

Sniper297 · 03-15-20, 05:00 PM

Main purpose of the TDC is to keep track of target speed, course, and interception data, but in addition to that the fleet boats had plotting tables in the control room (not shown in SH4, more or less simulated with map markers ON).

Couple pics showing the plotters, which were actually rudimentary electromechanical computers;

The garbage can looking thing under the near end of the table is the master Sperry gyrocompass, the TDC and all the compass repeaters along with the mechanical plotting tools are slaved to that.

Another view showing the mechanical arms to automate the tracking.

US fleet boats actually had some pretty sophisticated technology for the era, but since a lot of it was classified top secret few people knew about it.

Most common mistake most subsimmers make is fighter plane thinking - a fighter pilot mentally plots a pursuit curve, since the objective is to end up on his tail with a zero deflection shot with machine guns. Submariners are using a much slower single projectile at a slower moving target, so the objective is to plot the target track, plot an intercept point ahead of the target, then submerge to wait for the target to run over you - a self propelled minefield of sorts. Main things you need to know are target course and speed and distance to the track - if you're 5 miles from the track of the target you need to do whatever it takes to get close to the track far enough ahead of the target so he doesn't see you, then submerge and do the slow speed maneuvering to line up pointed toward the track within 2000 yards as the AOB approaches 70-90 degrees.

In a nutshell;
1. Need to be 500 to 2000 yards off the track, facing the track, when the target arrives at the firing point. (The game doesn't simulate buoyancy, so unlike real life you can stop dead in the water at the firing point instead of having to time it to approach at 2 knots for maintaining depth. Dealer's choice.)
2. Since the objective is to submerge near that point without being detected, unless you're already close to that point you need to stay 8000 to 10000 yards (4 to 5 nautical miles) away from the nearest ship while heading for a point 10000 yards directly ahead of them - the end-around, if needed.
3. Patience is a virtue, the approach takes time to get into position undetected.

"The big problem is to get in front of the target.
Anyone ought to be able to hit him with a torpedo after that.
Getting into attack position is ninety percent of the job."
Capt Blunt, RUN SILENT RUN DEEP

don1reed · 03-20-20, 07:36 AM

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=4236

cheers

Moonlight · 03-20-20, 10:54 AM

Also by TorpX, the thread to go with the above download.

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...ight=Algebraic

propbeanie · 03-20-20, 02:50 PM

Do not neglect to read the thread, especially "TorpX's Post #37" if you use the program on the same computer as you play the game. If at all possible, you should use a 2nd computer for this (I have a big desk with plenty of laptop room), or use a cell fone app, such as "Sub Buddy from PoutyBatFace Studios (this is not an endorsement of said product), or similar. Sub Buddy does not do the same exact thing as TorpX's proggy, btw, and does cost $5 US.... But "shelling" to another app can and does cause issues in SH4 itself.

twon01 · 04-05-20, 02:49 PM

Guys,

Thanks so much for all the help. I am sorry for my slow reply. I have been rather busy at work since all the COVID-19 stuff started (I am a firefighter/paramedic IRL) and with my kids who are off from school.

I was hoping to have a real tracking party consisting of my XO (daughter) and Ensign (my youngest son) who are in love with this game to play along. They are still very young and are not far along enough for the math part, but my daughter is learning how to use a ruler to measure things, and my son is learning his ABC's and #'s. I make him read the bearing to target numbers (its become a real inspiration to him to learn them so he can play) and press the up / down scope keys. My daughter draws the track lines on a plotting chart. We have been having a blast with it together when we have time to play.

All in all this is an excuse for us to use to tell the Admiral (My wife) that computer games are educational and they are doing "school work" during the day while at home. i found that an old plastic cutting mat my wife had laying around from sewing had 1" squares on it. We developed a scale to use.

So far we are having fun, with the built in errors from our tracking, it makes it more interesting. We also relate to the real life crews who's frustration at a miss must have been un-measurable. I will get a few photos uploaded when I can of what we have been doing so others can chime in and add to the discussion. I hope all of you are staying safe and healthy! God Bless!

razark · 04-05-20, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twon01

i found that an old plastic cutting mat my wife had laying around from sewing had 1" squares on it.

https://www.amazon.com/Maneuvering-B.../dp/B00OGOCFKO

twon01 · 04-06-20, 04:31 PM

Thank you Razark! I saw those, and the electronic version here on the downloads. I am trying to learn with the electronic version, but have not had much time to devote to learning it.

Stay Safe!

oversoul · 04-10-20, 01:55 AM

You may be interested in running maneuvering boards.

BigWalleye · 04-10-20, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twon01

Guys,

Thanks so much for all the help. I am sorry for my slow reply. I have been rather busy at work since all the COVID-19 stuff started (I am a firefighter/paramedic IRL) and with my kids who are off from school.

I was hoping to have a real tracking party consisting of my XO (daughter) and Ensign (my youngest son) who are in love with this game to play along. They are still very young and are not far along enough for the math part, but my daughter is learning how to use a ruler to measure things, and my son is learning his ABC's and #'s. I make him read the bearing to target numbers (its become a real inspiration to him to learn them so he can play) and press the up / down scope keys. My daughter draws the track lines on a plotting chart. We have been having a blast with it together when we have time to play.

All in all this is an excuse for us to use to tell the Admiral (My wife) that computer games are educational and they are doing "school work" during the day while at home. i found that an old plastic cutting mat my wife had laying around from sewing had 1" squares on it. We developed a scale to use.

So far we are having fun, with the built in errors from our tracking, it makes it more interesting. We also relate to the real life crews who's frustration at a miss must have been un-measurable. I will get a few photos uploaded when I can of what we have been doing so others can chime in and add to the discussion. I hope all of you are staying safe and healthy! God Bless!

What a totally marvelous idea! In one fell swoop you have addressed so many different issues! You resolved the Tracking Party Conundrum. (Real skippers didn't have to do everything by themseives in real time, but AI tracking parties are computer-perfect.) You provided practical, motivating lessons for your kids' home-schooling. You found a way to make a solitary computer game into a family activity for stay-at- home times. You are a great subsimmer and a great dad! God bless you and your family and keep you all safe.

Usually, we all post here at SubSim about the game, and usually the game is an escape from real life. But you have brought your game into real life and reminded us of what is really important. Of course, we can't all implement your idea directly, but in this difficult time, you can inspire us to look at our own environment from a different perspective.

Oh, yeah. And you are also a first responder whose daily job is helping save others. Thank for that, too!

XLjedi · 04-10-20, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twon01

Thank you Razark! I saw those, and the electronic version here on the downloads. I am trying to learn with the electronic version, but have not had much time to devote to learning it.

It's been awhile... but I could probably help you with that. What would you like to know about the electronic version?

03-11-20, 10:08 PM	#1
twon01 Swabbie Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 7 Downloads: 87 Uploads: 0	Tracking Party Hello All! I would like to say that I've been a lurker for a very long time, and have posted a couple of posts throughout the years, but mostly am able to find all the answers I need from other's questions. What I am looking for is some information as to what the real procedures the tracking parties would use to build a track and fire solution. What I would like to do is simulate the procedure on graph paper that is on my desk rather than using the map in game. Is this possible? I have been scouring the internet for the past week looking for information as to how this was done, what tools they used and what information they used to build a firing solution. I cannot visualize how this was done on the boat during a cruise. I loved reading Dick O'Kane's books talking about the tracking party and working the slide rules to come up with solutions, I would just like to try to put myself into that situation and see if I could rise to the challenge (I'm not holding my breath). I have read the various manuals found on maritime.org, downloaded the template for the solution solver (so I can build one to use). I did steal my kids rule, protractor and compass...do I need anything else? Any help or even better does anyone have photos of them doing something similar? Any help is greatly appreciated and I would like to say a huge thanks to all those who have dedicated their time to bettering this sim...thank you modders!!!! ~Anthony

03-11-20, 10:53 PM	#2
Aktungbby Gefallen Engel U-666 Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy Posts: 27,850 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Welcome back! Twon01! __________________ "Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe"

03-20-20, 07:36 AM	#5
don1reed Ace of the Deep Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Valhalla: Silent Generation Posts: 1,149 Downloads: 910 Uploads: 0	https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=4236 cheers __________________ During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ~ George Orwell

03-20-20, 10:54 AM	#6
Moonlight Admiral Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Fookhall Copse Posts: 2,132 Downloads: 184 Uploads: 0	Also by TorpX, the thread to go with the above download. https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...ight=Algebraic __________________

03-20-20, 02:50 PM	#7
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,743 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	Do not neglect to read the thread, especially "TorpX's Post #37" if you use the program on the same computer as you play the game. If at all possible, you should use a 2nd computer for this (I have a big desk with plenty of laptop room), or use a cell fone app, such as "Sub Buddy from PoutyBatFace Studios (this is not an endorsement of said product), or similar. Sub Buddy does not do the same exact thing as TorpX's proggy, btw, and does cost $5 US.... But "shelling" to another app can and does cause issues in SH4 itself. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

03-15-20, 10:45 AM	#3
Vox165 Soundman Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Penns Woods Posts: 149 Downloads: 141 Uploads: 0	Anthony , I have similar interest. I found the "Submarine Torpedo Fire Control Manual, 1950" (Maritime.org ) answered my questions. This particular manual beaks down the positions, responsilbilites and actions of "Duties of the Fire Control Party"on a fleet type sub. Another way I investigated the topic was to look at the development history of Combat Information Center (CIC) on U.S. warships. My impression, is that as the number of sensors (radars etc) , weapon types, and threats increased, particularly aircraft, the complexity of battlefield required the CIC of warships and subs to developed in parallel. I did similar to what you are doing with the old sim: Destroyer Command . ie developed my own CIC outside the game's using graph paper etc. I found a stop watch useful. I also used various logarithmic papers. You can track your sub and targets over short distances.

03-15-20, 05:00 PM	#4
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Main purpose of the TDC is to keep track of target speed, course, and interception data, but in addition to that the fleet boats had plotting tables in the control room (not shown in SH4, more or less simulated with map markers ON). Couple pics showing the plotters, which were actually rudimentary electromechanical computers; The garbage can looking thing under the near end of the table is the master Sperry gyrocompass, the TDC and all the compass repeaters along with the mechanical plotting tools are slaved to that. Another view showing the mechanical arms to automate the tracking. US fleet boats actually had some pretty sophisticated technology for the era, but since a lot of it was classified top secret few people knew about it. Most common mistake most subsimmers make is fighter plane thinking - a fighter pilot mentally plots a pursuit curve, since the objective is to end up on his tail with a zero deflection shot with machine guns. Submariners are using a much slower single projectile at a slower moving target, so the objective is to plot the target track, plot an intercept point ahead of the target, then submerge to wait for the target to run over you - a self propelled minefield of sorts. Main things you need to know are target course and speed and distance to the track - if you're 5 miles from the track of the target you need to do whatever it takes to get close to the track far enough ahead of the target so he doesn't see you, then submerge and do the slow speed maneuvering to line up pointed toward the track within 2000 yards as the AOB approaches 70-90 degrees. In a nutshell; 1. Need to be 500 to 2000 yards off the track, facing the track, when the target arrives at the firing point. (The game doesn't simulate buoyancy, so unlike real life you can stop dead in the water at the firing point instead of having to time it to approach at 2 knots for maintaining depth. Dealer's choice.) 2. Since the objective is to submerge near that point without being detected, unless you're already close to that point you need to stay 8000 to 10000 yards (4 to 5 nautical miles) away from the nearest ship while heading for a point 10000 yards directly ahead of them - the end-around, if needed. 3. Patience is a virtue, the approach takes time to get into position undetected. "The big problem is to get in front of the target. Anyone ought to be able to hit him with a torpedo after that. Getting into attack position is ninety percent of the job." Capt Blunt, RUN SILENT RUN DEEP

04-05-20, 02:49 PM	#8
twon01 Swabbie Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 7 Downloads: 87 Uploads: 0	Guys, Thanks so much for all the help. I am sorry for my slow reply. I have been rather busy at work since all the COVID-19 stuff started (I am a firefighter/paramedic IRL) and with my kids who are off from school. I was hoping to have a real tracking party consisting of my XO (daughter) and Ensign (my youngest son) who are in love with this game to play along. They are still very young and are not far along enough for the math part, but my daughter is learning how to use a ruler to measure things, and my son is learning his ABC's and #'s. I make him read the bearing to target numbers (its become a real inspiration to him to learn them so he can play) and press the up / down scope keys. My daughter draws the track lines on a plotting chart. We have been having a blast with it together when we have time to play. All in all this is an excuse for us to use to tell the Admiral (My wife) that computer games are educational and they are doing "school work" during the day while at home. i found that an old plastic cutting mat my wife had laying around from sewing had 1" squares on it. We developed a scale to use. So far we are having fun, with the built in errors from our tracking, it makes it more interesting. We also relate to the real life crews who's frustration at a miss must have been un-measurable. I will get a few photos uploaded when I can of what we have been doing so others can chime in and add to the discussion. I hope all of you are staying safe and healthy! God Bless!

04-06-20, 04:31 PM	#10
twon01 Swabbie Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 7 Downloads: 87 Uploads: 0	Thank you Razark! I saw those, and the electronic version here on the downloads. I am trying to learn with the electronic version, but have not had much time to devote to learning it. Stay Safe!

04-10-20, 01:55 AM	#11
oversoul Swabbie Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 10 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 0	You may be interested in running maneuvering boards.