The Lazarus Project; or, getting old ain't for sissies! - Page 4

Hitman · 05-22-07, 02:40 PM

Mark, a screenshot through CTLR+IMPRPNT of the 20' CRT would give a better idea of the quality. The pictures give anyway a good show of what you are doing, great solution. As Neal (Don't call him Neil, he hates it

) says, however, a part of the fun is in fact seeing an old computer, brings back good memories

Can you run well high TCs in SH1 under DOSBOX?:hmm:

Regarding CAOD, a good trick to have it look great was to set the desktop res exactly double (1280x960) the size as the CAOD window (640x480), then making it go full screen. It stretches perfectly and looks very well

.

MarkShot · 05-22-07, 03:39 PM

Sorry, Neal. I suppose can write name as "Marc" then.

MarkShot · 05-22-07, 03:41 PM

High TCs are no problem at all.

Bubblehead Nuke · 05-22-07, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

It is said that Virtual PC will only run on XP Pro, but I heard that you can ignore the warnings during install and still get it to work on XP Home. However, I have XP Pro ... so, I wouldn't know for sure.

That would be correct sir. I am running XP Home and I have a fully working Virtual PC 2007 on my machine.

I have DOS 6.22, Windows 95, and Windows 98 virtual machines. What is most amazing is that you can run all THREE of these at the same time on a 1 gig XP machine and still have better performance than they had on the old legacy hardware.

Onkel Neal · 05-22-07, 11:00 PM

ok, Mark and BBhead, now I'm intrigued :hmm:

I'll have to look into that. I'm sorry about your health, Mark, I appreciate the interest but look after yourself first. I may start on one DOSBOX/Virual thing tutorial myself, for Fast Attack (which I still can not get to work on the Subsim Retro Machine

). Once I get one complete, I may ask for volunteers for some other tutorials. It would be a GREAT way to introduce new subsim skippers to the classic and let then see how far we've come, as well as appreciate the great work by Dynamix, AEON, Ratcliff and Grace, John Garcia, Kim Boscoe, and all.

688 ATTACK SUB

SUB BATTLE

WOLFPACK

DANGEROUS WATERS

SILENT HUNTER 4

MarkShot · 05-23-07, 01:00 PM

Bubblehead Nuke,

I am curious ... How would you compare using DOSBOX 63/65/70 to VPC 2004/2007? Certainly, for old Windows games that won't run on XP or Vista, there is no choice but VPC. However, for DOS games you could go either way. Have you tried DOSBOX? On the whole, I find DOSBOX to be more configureable than VPC (adjusting resources, key mapper, ...). Of course, VPC requires the install and configuring of DOS and Memaker. One thing that VPC has is the ability to make old games saveable even when the game precluded that functionality.

Besides functionality, how do they compare in terms of performance? I know VPC 2007 is supposed to use the virtualization capability built directly into the latest processors. I would imagine that on the whole DOSBOX would have more overhead.

Thanks.

MarkShot · 05-23-07, 02:08 PM

I decided to experiment with VPC 2007 and DOS 6.2. I am having trouble enabling my CD drive to be seen by DOS. First, I want the physical drive to be accessible. Second, I want to install the extensions to allow host folders to be shared with my DOS session.

What do I need to do in order to enable my CD drive? I tried playing around with MSCDEX, but it kept saying that it did not recognize a CD drive.

Thanks.

MarkShot · 05-23-07, 04:41 PM

I spent this afternoon testing VPC 2007 versus DOSBOX 0.70. Admittedly, I was not using a sub sim. I used a classic business stock trading game, 1830.

It took me a while to get it set up, but here are my findings:

(1) DOSBOX is much more straight forward to use for anyone who already has Windows up and running. VPC/DOS is a good exercise to remember why playing games with DOS was such a pain in the ass to get them configured to run.

(2) Video updates in DOSBOX were much smoother than VPC despite a top of the line system (QX6700 @ 3.2GHz with 8800GTX). Although turning off hardware virtualization did help updates a bit. The game was somewhat clunky, but playable. However, this is not a game with a lot of motion (turn oriented stock trading). I dedicate an entire processor to just running VPC.

(3) The place where VPC shined was in terms of compute performance. 1830 is somewhat chess like and the computation of game moves/turns can be fairly intensive as the game explores possibilities. Despite having set DOSBOX CPU cycles to MAX, VPC clearly consumed more CPU cycles (a steady 100% of the allocated processor). However, turn computation was a little less than twice as fast a DOSBOX.

Bottom line: DOSBOX has a convenient set up and much smoother graphics. VPC better allocation of RAW CPU to the hosted game. Game receives almost twice as many CPU cycles.

Bubblehead Nuke · 05-23-07, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkShot

Bubblehead Nuke,

I am curious ... How would you compare using DOSBOX 63/65/70 to VPC 2004/2007? Certainly, for old Windows games that won't run on XP or Vista, there is no choice but VPC. However, for DOS games you could go either way. Have you tried DOSBOX? On the whole, I find DOSBOX to be more configureable than VPC (adjusting resources, key mapper, ...). Of course, VPC requires the install and configuring of DOS and Memaker. One thing that VPC has is the ability to make old games saveable even when the game precluded that functionality.

Besides functionality, how do they compare in terms of performance? I know VPC 2007 is supposed to use the virtualization capability built directly into the latest processors. I would imagine that on the whole DOSBOX would have more overhead.

Thanks.

I have not used DOSbox in quite a while so I honestly can not give you any feedback on performance issues vs VPC 2007.

Onkel Neal · 05-23-07, 11:15 PM

Good findings, Mark. I'm hoping to dig into DOSBOX for Fast Attack this weekend, I'll report back.

Won't have any time to play until Sat.

Cheers
Neal

MarkShot · 05-24-07, 10:15 AM

Neal,

To help you out here. DOSBOX ...

The three basic steps to using DOSBOX:

(1) Install DOSBOX.

(2) Configure for your game. This may be two steps as you may need to first configure to install your game and then configure to run your game. DOSBOX uses the native Windows file system unlike VPC.

(3) Install/adjust your game.

DOSBOX for a particular game is driven by a *.CONF ini-type file. Latest version is 0.70. The install will contain a TXT FAQ file; very useful. Also, the default CONF file has lots of useful info worth reading. Once you have an CONF file for your game, then you can just create a shortcut to launch it/the game.

There are two ways to get a CONF file. First, you can just edit it by hand; this is my preferred approach. Or you can download and install another tool, DFEND (DOSBOX Front End), which will give you a more friendly interface for producing CONF files.

Here are the areas/things you need to concentrate in the CONF file:

(1) Setting graphic options and deciding whether you are going to play full screen or windowed. Besides resolutions, you can also do some screen rescaling for small sized older games. If you are running into graphic performance problems, you can usually skip some frame rendering to improve the performance at the cost of smoothness.

(2) Setting the amount of CPU. Some games will run poorly if they get too much CPU (scroll too fast or events happen too fast). In 0.70, you can also use settings such as AUTO and MAX for CPU. Otherwise, you pick the number of cycles. (You can also adjust it dynamically and see how the game is impacted and then edit in your final value.)

(3) Sound. This is usually simple. In the DOSBOX, you usually just pick Sound Blaster and in your game sound config pick Sound Blaster.

(4) You put a few lines down at the bottom for an Autoexec. Thus, instead of getting a DOS prompt which you may want when installing configuring your game, you tell DOSBOX where to find (MOUNT) the game and then launch it straight away.

Once you get the hang of it, it is really pretty easy. I'll PM you a phone number where you can reach me if you run into problems.

Onkel Neal · 05-24-07, 09:15 PM

1. DOSBOX for windows installed.

2. Configure what for the game? (Fast Attack, in this case). I have changed the DOSBOX config to mount the C: drive (sounds naughty, doesn't it?).

Oh wait, I found a README.... to be continued

Onkel Neal · 05-24-07, 09:36 PM

Well, still no luck, I'm having trouble installing the game now

MarkShot · 05-24-07, 10:48 PM

Neal,

I sent you another PM (regarding Fast Attack). You are reading these PMs? (I don't get any receipt acknowledgement.)

Onkel Neal · 05-27-07, 09:42 PM

Hi Mark, I got the PMs, thanks

Today I messed around with the config file and managed to get Fast Attack to start and run quite well today. I added John Channing's No Time Limit mod so I did not have to finish a mission in 2 hours... and I played the first two Sea of Japan mission; this game is fantastic. I started the third mission and sank the two North Korean Romeos and the patrol craft, leaving one pesky high speed boat that was circling me... then the game locked up

But hey, 2 out of 3 ain't bad

Now, if I could just figure out how to capture screens and video. FRAPS won't work on DOS or Win95. There must be some software or hardware that can capture the video as it feeds the monitor....:hmm:

.

05-22-07, 02:40 PM	#46
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,099 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	Mark, a screenshot through CTLR+IMPRPNT of the 20' CRT would give a better idea of the quality. The pictures give anyway a good show of what you are doing, great solution. As Neal (Don't call him Neil, he hates it ) says, however, a part of the fun is in fact seeing an old computer, brings back good memories Can you run well high TCs in SH1 under DOSBOX?:hmm: Regarding CAOD, a good trick to have it look great was to set the desktop res exactly double (1280x960) the size as the CAOD window (640x480), then making it go full screen. It stretches perfectly and looks very well . __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

05-22-07, 03:39 PM	#47
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Sorry, Neal. I suppose can write name as "Marc" then. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

05-22-07, 03:41 PM	#48
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	High TCs are no problem at all. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

05-23-07, 01:00 PM	#51
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Bubblehead Nuke, I am curious ... How would you compare using DOSBOX 63/65/70 to VPC 2004/2007? Certainly, for old Windows games that won't run on XP or Vista, there is no choice but VPC. However, for DOS games you could go either way. Have you tried DOSBOX? On the whole, I find DOSBOX to be more configureable than VPC (adjusting resources, key mapper, ...). Of course, VPC requires the install and configuring of DOS and Memaker. One thing that VPC has is the ability to make old games saveable even when the game precluded that functionality. Besides functionality, how do they compare in terms of performance? I know VPC 2007 is supposed to use the virtualization capability built directly into the latest processors. I would imagine that on the whole DOSBOX would have more overhead. Thanks. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

05-23-07, 02:08 PM	#52
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	I decided to experiment with VPC 2007 and DOS 6.2. I am having trouble enabling my CD drive to be seen by DOS. First, I want the physical drive to be accessible. Second, I want to install the extensions to allow host folders to be shared with my DOS session. What do I need to do in order to enable my CD drive? I tried playing around with MSCDEX, but it kept saying that it did not recognize a CD drive. Thanks. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

05-22-07, 11:00 PM	#50
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,284 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	ok, Mark and BBhead, now I'm intrigued :hmm: I'll have to look into that. I'm sorry about your health, Mark, I appreciate the interest but look after yourself first. I may start on one DOSBOX/Virual thing tutorial myself, for Fast Attack (which I still can not get to work on the Subsim Retro Machine ). Once I get one complete, I may ask for volunteers for some other tutorials. It would be a GREAT way to introduce new subsim skippers to the classic and let then see how far we've come, as well as appreciate the great work by Dynamix, AEON, Ratcliff and Grace, John Garcia, Kim Boscoe, and all. 688 ATTACK SUB SUB BATTLE WOLFPACK DANGEROUS WATERS SILENT HUNTER 4

05-23-07, 04:41 PM	#53
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	I spent this afternoon testing VPC 2007 versus DOSBOX 0.70. Admittedly, I was not using a sub sim. I used a classic business stock trading game, 1830. It took me a while to get it set up, but here are my findings: (1) DOSBOX is much more straight forward to use for anyone who already has Windows up and running. VPC/DOS is a good exercise to remember why playing games with DOS was such a pain in the ass to get them configured to run. (2) Video updates in DOSBOX were much smoother than VPC despite a top of the line system (QX6700 @ 3.2GHz with 8800GTX). Although turning off hardware virtualization did help updates a bit. The game was somewhat clunky, but playable. However, this is not a game with a lot of motion (turn oriented stock trading). I dedicate an entire processor to just running VPC. (3) The place where VPC shined was in terms of compute performance. 1830 is somewhat chess like and the computation of game moves/turns can be fairly intensive as the game explores possibilities. Despite having set DOSBOX CPU cycles to MAX, VPC clearly consumed more CPU cycles (a steady 100% of the allocated processor). However, turn computation was a little less than twice as fast a DOSBOX. Bottom line: DOSBOX has a convenient set up and much smoother graphics. VPC better allocation of RAW CPU to the hosted game. Game receives almost twice as many CPU cycles. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

05-23-07, 11:15 PM	#55
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,284 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	Good findings, Mark. I'm hoping to dig into DOSBOX for Fast Attack this weekend, I'll report back. Won't have any time to play until Sat. Cheers Neal __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

05-24-07, 10:15 AM	#56
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Neal, To help you out here. DOSBOX ... The three basic steps to using DOSBOX: (1) Install DOSBOX. (2) Configure for your game. This may be two steps as you may need to first configure to install your game and then configure to run your game. DOSBOX uses the native Windows file system unlike VPC. (3) Install/adjust your game. DOSBOX for a particular game is driven by a *.CONF ini-type file. Latest version is 0.70. The install will contain a TXT FAQ file; very useful. Also, the default CONF file has lots of useful info worth reading. Once you have an CONF file for your game, then you can just create a shortcut to launch it/the game. There are two ways to get a CONF file. First, you can just edit it by hand; this is my preferred approach. Or you can download and install another tool, DFEND (DOSBOX Front End), which will give you a more friendly interface for producing CONF files. Here are the areas/things you need to concentrate in the CONF file: (1) Setting graphic options and deciding whether you are going to play full screen or windowed. Besides resolutions, you can also do some screen rescaling for small sized older games. If you are running into graphic performance problems, you can usually skip some frame rendering to improve the performance at the cost of smoothness. (2) Setting the amount of CPU. Some games will run poorly if they get too much CPU (scroll too fast or events happen too fast). In 0.70, you can also use settings such as AUTO and MAX for CPU. Otherwise, you pick the number of cycles. (You can also adjust it dynamically and see how the game is impacted and then edit in your final value.) (3) Sound. This is usually simple. In the DOSBOX, you usually just pick Sound Blaster and in your game sound config pick Sound Blaster. (4) You put a few lines down at the bottom for an Autoexec. Thus, instead of getting a DOS prompt which you may want when installing configuring your game, you tell DOSBOX where to find (MOUNT) the game and then launch it straight away. Once you get the hang of it, it is really pretty easy. I'll PM you a phone number where you can reach me if you run into problems. __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

05-24-07, 09:15 PM	#57
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,284 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	1. DOSBOX for windows installed. 2. Configure what for the game? (Fast Attack, in this case). I have changed the DOSBOX config to mount the C: drive (sounds naughty, doesn't it?). Oh wait, I found a README.... to be continued __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

05-24-07, 09:36 PM	#58
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,284 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	Well, still no luck, I'm having trouble installing the game now __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

05-24-07, 10:48 PM	#59
MarkShot Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,134 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Neal, I sent you another PM (regarding Fast Attack). You are reading these PMs? (I don't get any receipt acknowledgement.) __________________ War games, not wars! --- Only a small few profit from war (that should not stand)!

05-27-07, 09:42 PM	#60
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,284 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	Hi Mark, I got the PMs, thanks Today I messed around with the config file and managed to get Fast Attack to start and run quite well today. I added John Channing's No Time Limit mod so I did not have to finish a mission in 2 hours... and I played the first two Sea of Japan mission; this game is fantastic. I started the third mission and sank the two North Korean Romeos and the patrol craft, leaving one pesky high speed boat that was circling me... then the game locked up But hey, 2 out of 3 ain't bad Now, if I could just figure out how to capture screens and video. FRAPS won't work on DOS or Win95. There must be some software or hardware that can capture the video as it feeds the monitor....:hmm: . __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web