U.S. Sub WWII Torpedo Re-Supply question

[StealthRabbit]

Not sure if I should ask this here or in the General Sub& Naval Discussions board, but here goes.


I was wondering if anybody knows if back in WWII in the Pacific if a U.S. sub ended up firing off all it's torpedoes just 2 or 3 weeks into it's war patrol would they go to a flotilla and get a new load out of torpedoes? Or when they radioed in their situation would they be given a new mission before they returned to base like Life Saving duty or a photo reconnaissance mission or some other mission that did not necessarily require them to have torpedoes?


Just curious. In my current campaign I am up to early November 1942 and I just used all 24 of my torpedoes (15 duds, 6 missis, 3 detonations) sinking a destroyer and a light cruiser in The Slot over a period of 60 hours. I am not sure if I want to re arm at the Tulagi flotilla, or just head back to Midway and end the patrol. For the most part I like to play SH4 as real as possible and try to make as realistic decisions as possible, that the real sub captains would make. I like to play with as high immersion as possibl


Just curious.
-StealthRabbit

[Macgregor the Hammer]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

Not sure if I should ask this here or in the General Sub& Naval Discussions board, but here goes.


I was wondering if anybody knows if back in WWII in the Pacific if a U.S. sub ended up firing off all it's torpedoes just 2 or 3 weeks into it's war patrol would they go to a flotilla and get a new load out of torpedoes? Or when they radioed in their situation would they be given a new mission before they returned to base like Life Saving duty or a photo reconnaissance mission or some other mission that did not necessarily require them to have torpedoes?


Just curious. In my current campaign I am up to early November 1942 and I just used all 24 of my torpedoes (15 duds, 6 missis, 3 detonations) sinking a destroyer and a light cruiser in The Slot over a period of 60 hours. I am not sure if I want to re arm at the Tulagi flotilla, or just head back to Midway and end the patrol. For the most part I like to play SH4 as real as possible and try to make as realistic decisions as possible, that the real sub captains would make. I like to play with as high immersion as possibl


Just curious.
-StealthRabbit

I thought my dud ratio was high. 4 duds in 10 torpedos. I feel for you brother!

[razark]

Originally Posted by Macgregor the Hammer

I thought my dud ratio was high. 4 duds in 10 torpedos.

Could be worse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ti...%93August_1943
"He had shot 15 torpedoes at Tonan Maru over two days and only 2 of them had worked. The others shot under ideal conditions failed to explode."


At least they were duds, and not "misses".

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by Macgregor the Hammer

I thought my dud ratio was high. 4 duds in 10 torpedos. I feel for you brother!

I have found that the TMO Mod to be very streaky when it comes to the dud rate of the Mk. 14, but always within a realistic rate of failure when compared to the actual rate of failure in WWII. I'll have patrols where only 3 or 4 will be duds, then on the very next patrol it will go the other way and only 3 or 4 will detonate on contact. Very random, but I imagine that's how it really was, completely random.



I started disengaging the influence detonator long ago. I have found that there is nothing that will ruin a meticulously planned and expertly and carefully executed torpedo attack setup like 2 or 3 torpedoes exploding after only traveling half way to their target, to let all the escorts know there is a United States Navy sub in their midst, before even any cargo ships have been hit... Nothing that is short of surfacing the boat and then me climbing up to the top look out spot on the bridge and mooning them all. (if you could do such a thing in the game, but you get my drift.)



I am only playing a game and duds make me totally nuts. I can not even begin to imagine actually being sent out to do battle with a weapon that is more likely to fail then actually work, and it was the primary weapon no less. It's hard for me to accept the fact that no one was really made to answer for knowingly sending out boats, crewed with fellow American sailors, with a weapon that they knew was faulty and likely had more then one serious problem. Not one guy spent one minute in prison, and who knows how many boats where lost, and American sailors killed, because of the faults of the Mk. 14.


Sorry. I'll get off my soap box now. This just really gets me so very pissed off.



Different subject.


Did some subs really have a little ice cream machine on board dose anyone know? I know the U.S. subs got the best food in the navy for moral purposes, and it would make sense to have a way to make ice cream on board for that purpose. And if they did was it allowed, or was it allowed only if no one else knew about it?


Just curious
-StealthRabbit

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by razark

Could be worse:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Ti...%93August_1943
"He had shot 15 torpedoes at Tonan Maru over two days and only 2 of them had worked. The others shot under ideal conditions failed to explode."


At least they were duds, and not "misses".

And on top of that there where a hand full of other skippers that did similar things with keeping meticulous records and checking the weapons themselves before firing. And still BudOrd blamed the captains. I think justice would have been taking the guys from BudOrd that KNEW the Mk. had serious faults, and put them in front of a firing squad. Gross dereliction of duty in a time of war, or knowingly hazarding the lives of fellow sailors, or something like that.


I know a firing squad might be a little much, but at least someone should have spent time in a military prison. 8 or 10 years in a prison where they give you a sledge hammer and your job is to turn big rocks into little rocks. They did that in military prisons back in the 40's and 50's right? If not then they should have.


-StealthRabbit

[Col7777]

You can always un-check it in the game settings.

Col.

[Macgregor the Hammer]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

And on top of that there where a hand full of other skippers that did similar things with keeping meticulous records and checking the weapons themselves before firing. And still BudOrd blamed the captains. I think justice would have been taking the guys from BudOrd that KNEW the Mk. had serious faults, and put them in front of a firing squad. Gross dereliction of duty in a time of war, or knowingly hazarding the lives of fellow sailors, or something like that.


I know a firing squad might be a little much, but at least someone should have spent time in a military prison. 8 or 10 years in a prison where they give you a sledge hammer and your job is to turn big rocks into little rocks. They did that in military prisons back in the 40's and 50's right? If not then they should have.


-StealthRabbit

The good news is due to Admiral Lockwood's fight with BuOrd resulted in making the Mk-14 a very effective weapon from mid '43 on. I hope that's modeled in the game.

[torpedobait]

Originally Posted by Macgregor the Hammer

I hope that's modeled in the game.

It is modeled as such in FOTRS-U; the dud rate falls dramatically after mid-1943, but there will still be occasional duds now and then.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

Not sure if I should ask this here or in the General Sub& Naval Discussions board, but here goes.


I was wondering if anybody knows if back in WWII in the Pacific if a U.S. sub ended up firing off all it's torpedoes just 2 or 3 weeks into it's war patrol would they go to a flotilla and get a new load out of torpedoes? Or when they radioed in their situation would they be given a new mission before they returned to base like Life Saving duty or a photo reconnaissance mission or some other mission that did not necessarily require them to have torpedoes?


Just curious. In my current campaign I am up to early November 1942 and I just used all 24 of my torpedoes (15 duds, 6 missis, 3 detonations) sinking a destroyer and a light cruiser in The Slot over a period of 60 hours. I am not sure if I want to re arm at the Tulagi flotilla, or just head back to Midway and end the patrol. For the most part I like to play SH4 as real as possible and try to make as realistic decisions as possible, that the real sub captains would make. I like to play with as high immersion as possible


Just curious.
-StealthRabbit

try reading about the topic:

Silent Victory by Clay Blair Jr
Clear the Bridge by Dick O'Kane
History of United States Naval Operations in World War II by Morison

Volumes 4, 12, 13, 14

that should hold you until tomorrow.

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by Macgregor the Hammer

The good news is due to Admiral Lockwood's fight with BuOrd resulted in making the Mk-14 a very effective weapon from mid '43 on. I hope that's modeled in the game.

With TMO it starts to get a little better in early '43 and then by late '43 the dud rate drops very sharply to one dud in maybe 50 or 60 or somewhere around there. In the little I have read in actual war time accounts TMO sticks very closely to what happened in real life. I really like the TMO.


I think the best possible thing happened to BudOrd that could happen. It ceased to exist. You are almost never going to get the best weapon/car/computer/frisbee/whatever when there is only one manufacturer of said weapon/car/computer/frisbee/whatever because there is no competition, and competition breeds excellence.



-StealthRabbit

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by Col7777

You can always un-check it in the game settings.

Col.

I enjoy the realism even though it sounds like I am complaining. If I nu-checked dud torpedoes then that would remove the risk, and then it's not as exciting or interesting to me.


But that's just me.


-StealthRabbit

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

try reading about the topic:

Silent Victory by Clay Blair Jr
Clear the Bridge by Dick O'Kane
History of United States Naval Operations in World War II by Morison

Volumes 4, 12, 13, 14

that should hold you until tomorrow.

Much appreciated, thank you. I will order the ones I can from Amazon today or tomorrow. Clear the Bridge by Dick O'Kane sounds especially good. You must have an awesome library or collection of books.


-StealthRabbit

[Macgregor the Hammer]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

Much appreciated, thank you. I will order the ones I can from Amazon today or tomorrow. Clear the Bridge by Dick O'Kane sounds especially good. You must have an awesome library or collection of books.


-StealthRabbit

I just finished 'Sink 'em All' by Adm Lockwood and now I'm in the middle of 'Clear the Bridge'. Both are great reads!

[ETR3(SS)]

Originally Posted by StealthRabbit

Different subject.


Did some subs really have a little ice cream machine on board dose anyone know? I know the U.S. subs got the best food in the navy for moral purposes, and it would make sense to have a way to make ice cream on board for that purpose. And if they did was it allowed, or was it allowed only if no one else knew about it?


Just curious
-StealthRabbit

An actual design built ice cream machine? No. What the fleet boats did have was a dehumidifier to help with the high humidity of the Pacific environment. Bubbleheads are an enterprising group, and so with a little knowledge added a bonus feature to the dehumidifier. Complete with machine oil and the occasional metal shavings. Was it officially authorized? No. Was anybody going to stop us if they found out? Also no.

[StealthRabbit]

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

An actual design built ice cream machine? No. What the fleet boats did have was a dehumidifier to help with the high humidity of the Pacific environment. Bubbleheads are an enterprising group, and so with a little knowledge added a bonus feature to the dehumidifier. Complete with machine oil and the occasional metal shavings. Was it officially authorized? No. Was anybody going to stop us if they found out? Also no.

Good ol' American ingenuity. Just like the line by Elliot Gould in the movie 'A Bridge Too Far' from 1977.

My other favorite line from that movie is from Robert Redford.
"You're just going to sit there and... drink tea?!?!?!"


And then the whole scene with James Caan where he holds that surgeon at gun point so he looks at his buddy with the head wound, and then latter gets placed under arrest by that same surgeon... for 10 seconds.

Great movie. Now I have to go watch it.


I have heard or read what the old timer Bubbleheads say that on the boat what a civilian would have called an air conditioner was actually just a glorified dehumidifier, and that it was designed not tho keep the crew nice and cool, but rather to keep all the electronics for the radio, sonar, radar and, TDC dry so as to not short out.


I have one last question that you might know the answer to. In WWII when a sub skipper would record the tonnage of a ship he sunk did that number represent just the estimated weight of the cargo on board the ship, or did it represent the weight of the cargo AND the weight of the boat it was on added together?


I think I may have a nack for asking obscure and very detail oriented questions.



-StealthRabbit