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Old 04-22-06, 08:37 AM   #16
LuftWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldorak
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuftWolf
My world stops at the doorstep of the consoles.


Operation Flashpoint is a pc game Luftwolf.
Ok, then my world stops at the doorstep of games my computer is too slow to run.



My computer in 2001 was a total hooptie (in college)... my computer now is a servicable laptop with a genuine Nvidia card, but DW is pretty much the limit of its capabilities.

I think I can add Flashpoint to the list of games I want to get when I upgrade, including IL-2 FB *drool*...
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Old 04-22-06, 09:55 AM   #17
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While Flashpoint implemented the concept of differing units/capabilities on one battlefield, it certainly didn't go as far or at least did it that well. While the infantry part was very well designed and is still (except for the graphics) realism wise up to par to most if not all current games/simulations about infantry fights, the other parts i.e. tanks, airplanes and most notably helicopters were a looong shot off and pretty simplified. In the end, OFP, Joint Operations, Battlefield and similar games are at the current stage FPS games or at max Infantry simulations with the added benefit of being able to control a vehicle from a first person perspective and mostly very basic at that.

Bottom line, my opinion is that even tho you can certainly compare the concept of having differing playable units in the same battlespace at the same time, the buck basically stops there as the scope and goal of both games are really different.
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Old 04-22-06, 03:04 PM   #18
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I don't know about joint operations, but I do know that bungling ofp in with the bf series is something of a mistake - the pace is sooo different.

Ofp is indeed most realistic as an infantry simulator, but it has the full range of vehicles that make the infantry "position" what it is, including tanks and gunships and fixed-wing aircraft. The big clue is that there isn't anything the ai can do that the player cannot.

It won't hold up to steel beasts in realism for tank crews. The A-10 is far more realistic in Lock-on - but as far as the combined battlespace goes, OFP was (and perhaps still is) the most realistic.

I do know that VBS, an offshoot of sorts, is used as a military trainer.
(Kinda like Steel Beasts Pro)


Quote:
Ok, then my world stops at the doorstep of games my computer is too slow to run.
Requirements (recommended)
Pentium2/400 (3/600)
64Mb RAM (128)
3d graphics card with 16Mb (32) ram, 8 if using Voodoo2 (Does anyone know the release year for the voodoo2? Friggin ancient!)

Not to mention all the addons, like what's probably my favourite, Unified Artillery.


Armed assault, kinda "halfway to the sequel" (which won't be ofp2, by the way) is supposed to be released later this year. Much prettier, and the viewdistances are WOW in comparison to ofp.

So LW, consider getting OFP now and let ArmA be the one on the when-I-get-a-new-computer wishlist.
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Old 04-23-06, 02:17 AM   #19
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Oh my what big teeth you have ! :rotfl:
And so quick to flash 'em... So for you 'flashers' :-

LW - ''My world stops at the doorstep of the consoles.'' as has been said - fact Flashpoint was** a PC game.
OS - '' Flashpoint....certainly didn't go as far or at least did it that well.'' I said ''ahead of competition **at the time.''
''A few years ago.'' is the operative phrase - not surprising several other games have surpassed it.
C'mon guys lets have some accurate fire - shucks if you're that wide of the mark in the game.......

I'm looking to move from Steel Beasts Gold to Pro but am unlikely to desert Harpoon SP for the delights of
the newish MP. Lifes too short !!
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Old 05-23-06, 02:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathblow

OKO those comments don't even make sense.
you right, I apologize for this very agressive message.
I should have been in a very bad moment when I wrote that

I read so many times this kind of comments, I lost my selfcontrol
I shouldn't had to
sorry dude .....
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Old 05-25-06, 07:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathblow

OKO those comments don't even make sense.
you right, I apologize for this very agressive message.
I should have been in a very bad moment when I wrote that

I read so many times this kind of comments, I lost my selfcontrol
I shouldn't had to
sorry dude .....
Actually I've been meaning to recant most of the gripes I had above. That type of negativity is never good and in the end isn't helpful at all.

The fact is... DW is a great game and SCS did a great job. And when a player buys a game they get what they buy and anything more is a bonus... so SCS has lived up to much more than there obligation, that's for sure.

Its also rare for a company with such deep RL expertise to use that in a game... its doubtful that any purely game developer would bother to create such a complex sound model... or even have the expertise to do so. SCS does and did.

... :hmm: ...

Maybe what I'm really dissappointed about is the lack of freedom to mod that so many modern game manufacturers grant, hasn't been granted here. Sure theirs no obligation to do so, but... almost every major game I can think of put out today is granting those priviledges to its fan-based because they know it usually results in good for the games image, their developer reputation, and boost game-appeal. Heck if HalfLife2 hadn't been generous with their engine CounterStrike would have never been developed and the most popular, record breaking online game in history would have never been developed... and what a missed opprotunity would that have been.

The truth is, I believe that DW could possess the ability to become a modern naval sim ultimate... but I really doubt that SCS has the time and resources to take it to its end potential, nothing against their stellar abilities, but instead due to the fact that as a game developer, their time, budgets, and time-investment vs profit returns will neccesitate their end product... and it will take the efforts of the internet community (a powerfully creative force when fully unleashed) contributing upgrades (like LW and A and JSteed, etc) to slowly develope DW to its true max... we're never been closer to the opprotunity to develope "the perfect naval sim", but it won't get their with most of the game files on lock down.

So the clamps that SCS has put on modding feels a little like... :hmm: ... like walking into a packed movie theater for a movie about to start, seeing one seat left open in the whole theater, walking up to the seat and when your finally there the person next to the seat balks "No you can't sit there... I'm going to save that seat for someone that's not here yet!" *grrrrrrrrrrrrr*

So... I understand that SCS is trying to maintain its profit potential, and that somewhere, someone higher up has probably said that open source modding can't be allowed because it will hurt them eventually... but I disagree. I think that it will actually help them and make this game even more popular with a more loyal fan-base, and a great fan rapport. When SCS thinks of "future projects" it should not be concentrating on rehashing the DW engine with new systems into a game to sell as its next game "selling point" (selling its next game as the DW engine but with Burke as a controllable unit for example), but instead should be concentrating on producing engine upgrades to the object physics... water physics...radar physics...weather physics...damage physics... and not to mention graphics for future additions to its development repetoire (with each successive game being better and more realistic than the last)

That's just how I feel in the matter. Is it a more daunting task? Probably...and maybe SCS feels that way too underneath, but can't act on it because it runs into the same budget/development constraits all over again, with construction of new engines every few years beyond their profit making limits...but one can only hope.

Last edited by Deathblow; 05-29-06 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 05-26-06, 02:07 AM   #22
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Yep, SCS is pretty restrictive about modding their game, but the reason for that lies in their business modell which is quite different than most of the other game developers. They not only produce a game for the regular market but they sell their stuff to the military (which is probably pretty pricey for the military). Granted the stuff the military gets is a bit different (mostly the DB I would say), but thats their main customer. Now if they would be like Valve and give out their SDK and tell us "Feel free to mod everything", the military would certainly grab the SDK as well, put some of their own talent to use and SCS would loose a lot of money.

So, while I personally would appreciate having their SDK available to us and the OK to mod everything to our liking, I can understand their reasoning and live with it.
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Old 05-26-06, 06:31 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneShot
the military would certainly grab the SDK as well, put some of their own talent to use and SCS would loose a lot of money.
yes, assuming this is true... but personally, I doubt they make that much money rehashing a same old engine over and over again even if its military.
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Old 05-26-06, 06:54 PM   #24
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That's the big misconception that SCS has failed to dispell... DW is not simply a rehasing of the SC engine.

It is important to realize just how big a deal it is that DW has two features not seen in any other game: 1) multiple platform types sharing a complex battlespace environment equally 2) multistation capability.

I guess DW is either 8 years too late or some years ahead of its time. :hmm:

Cheers,
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Old 05-26-06, 07:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuftWolf
I guess DW is either 8 years too late or some years ahead of its time. :hmm:

Cheers,
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Its both
Graphicwise its 8 years too old, on the other hand gameplaywise its 8 years ahead of its time.
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Old 05-26-06, 07:30 PM   #26
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Good point.

Cheers,
David
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Old 05-27-06, 07:10 AM   #27
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8 years ahead of its time?....errr..... no not really. But it is a great idea and one that no one has done, curiously.

For a sim to be 8 years ahead of its time it needs 2 things.
1. The most outstanding physics model ever not just sonar physics, but realistic wave effects, object physics, weather, radar performance, etc.)
2. The most sophificated AI behavior possible. And DW doesn't come anywhere near sophificated regarding its AI. Only very basic behavioral algorithms. Heck, current standards in AI programming in modern gaming have produced some of the most unpredictable, practical AI behavior ever seen.
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Old 05-29-06, 03:24 AM   #28
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Well, that's if those are the only parameters by which you'd judge a piece of software... of course, if you define progress by certain terms, and then say that if something had those features it would be a sign of progress, it is no marvel that this is the conclusion drawn from such a reasoning process.
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Old 05-29-06, 08:19 AM   #29
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Yep, those are the criteria that matter most anyway . If you compare any game from 1996 to any game (of the same genre) in 2006, there are 4-5 major areas of advancement that make a later model game the "better" game.

1. Graphics (an obvious choice). Though not as important here as in other games. (do to the fact that the majority of gameplay is conducted via information consoles).
2. Artificial Intelligence. AIs have come leaps and bounds in terms of their sophistication, with advanced games showing trully life-like decision making from its AI opponents and proponents. This is demostrated most openly in the the RTS and FPS genere, but can be applied to games of all generes (from cardgames to racing to anything else).
3. Physics Modelling. The name of the game is reality. Getting those objects to bounce, turn, stop, roll, fly just like they really would in RL. The more accurate the physics the better. Again this is most demonstrated in twitch games like flight simulators and racing, in which physics takes priority in the gameplay, but again applies to all games as a upgrade in performance.
4. Online interconnectivity. Self-explanitory.
5. New hardware technology insertion/utilization. The use of the mouse comes to mind as a jump in game advancements (though probably not fully appreciated)... the original use of the internets is probably the biggest hardware utilization jump in recent gaming history. Something that may come out in the next year that will be a great example is the Wei controller... heck, I still haven't figured out how my old Nintendo Gun works! ... dw's use of Voice recoginition falls under this category.

So, yes I agree that DW's use of multistation online play is very forward thinking in the spirit of #4. Also, its utilization of voice recognition software is also very advanced (#5), and not something other game developers have taken full advantage of. Its physics modelling is sophisticated in the fact that its probably the most advanced sonar propogation model in existence (one of the games cornerstones in development and a lenchpin to its excellence) , along with a reasonable radar model (i'm reversing my stance from previously, the radar model is pretty good when looked at more closely). But a lot of the aspects of a fairly "advanced" game have been passed over: the AI could be better, other aspects of the physics model (for example, in a naval game, realistics wave mechanics would be a real sign of game advancement) could be better, and its nice to see efforts of SCS in improving them (with the physics efforts of the last patch and ongoing work... which still need a lot of improvement).

All and all, I would say that the whole naval sim genre has actually fallen behind in terms of programming, with no game really approaching the sophifications widely known to be possible, but that's just IMHO. Though I may have a slightly different view from sole-simulator gamers as my gaming interest pans across several genres (racing, fighting, fps, rts) in addition to simulations.

Last edited by Deathblow; 05-29-06 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 07-10-06, 04:44 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathblow
8 years ahead of its time?....errr..... no not really. But it is a great idea and one that no one has done, curiously.

For a sim to be 8 years ahead of its time it needs 2 things.
1. The most outstanding physics model ever not just sonar physics, but realistic wave effects, object physics, weather, radar performance, etc.)
2. The most sophificated AI behavior possible. And DW doesn't come anywhere near sophificated regarding its AI. Only very basic behavioral algorithms. Heck, current standards in AI programming in modern gaming have produced some of the most unpredictable, practical AI behavior ever seen.
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