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Old 07-25-2019, 03:13 PM   #1
YellowFin
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Default S-Boat Incorrectly Modeled

I like starting my careers in S-Boats. The stock settings for this class are incorrect and make realistic S-Boat deployments difficult, if not impossible.

According to real war patrol reports they would usually run submerged during the day, at around 3 kts, and recharge during the night, sometimes even just laying to instead of actually travelling. As a general rule the boats were surfaced between 1830 and 0430 in the morning. This apparently allowed to regenerate enough battery power.

Real S-Boats had 2 diesel engines and could travel at 2/3 ahead on one, while the other charged the batteries. This was especially useful when one of the engines gave up, or burned or otherwise made those men's lives hard.

In game this is not possible, as staying submerged at 3 kts, even without maneuvering drains the battery in about 6-7 hours down to less than 30% and a full night (1830-0430) of charging only gives me back about 20%.

In my view the stock S-Boat uses too much electrical power at a factor of 1.3 or so and recharges a factor 4-5 too slowly.

In the sub systems screen I see two engines modeled. Is the power generation / drive engine split possible? Could it be modded?

There is Webster's S-Class Mod for v1.4 & v1.5, which debuffs S-Boats to an extent, but it definitely allowed for realistic submerged/surfaced portions of the patrol. Unfortunately it messes with the sound fixes of FOTRSU, which is why I had to remove it.

Am I experiencing an anomaly or do others see the same problem? How are the other boat types in terms of battery charging times? Realistic? Over powered, under powered?

Greetings and safe hunting!
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Old 07-25-2019, 05:27 PM   #2
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One thing with all of the boats in the game, stock or modded, is to use the knot gauge, not the standard telegraph. When you run at Ahead 1/3 on the gauge, the boat attempts to do 3 knots, which does drain the battery rather rapidly. Instead, use the knot gauge by clicking on the hamburger menu below the telegraph. Now click on the "1" one knot mark, and you should get quite a few more hours out of your batteries. I was reading of one of the S-Boats that left out of Bremerton Washington enroute to Dutch Harbor for their first war station in March of 1942, and they were only getting as little as 6 hours out of their batteries, and would have to sometimes lay still submerged for the cover of darkness, and then have to stand to more for the engines to charge the batteries, since they wouldn't hardly charge. They sent them to war in that... yeesh!... Of course, my dad went across the Pacific in early '43 in an LST, and then they later rode out a hurricaine in another... again - yeesh! "Nothing to it", he says...

Sorry, got distracted... Another thing - when you activated the FotRSU mod, and then removed Webster's S-Boat mod, did you empty the Save folder? That would still have some bad data in it, if you hadn't emptied it, whether you saved a game or not.
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Old 07-25-2019, 06:44 PM   #3
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Thanks for the quick reply!

Yes, in fact I did a complete uninstall / directroy deletion (incl savegames) / registry cleaning / reboot / reinstall / JGSME fresh install snapshot and only then activated ONLY FOTRSU.

Yeah, on second thought I realized I don't really know how much battery life the S-Boats had. Some probably had even less than stock game boats. I think it was S-36 who spent one of its first patrols pretty much on only one engine the whole time. I imagine they didn't move far neither during the day nor at night.

Maybe I should first start out with properly researching the actual realistic ranges and charging times for these S-Boats. Just from reading a few reports my gut feeling told me that the stock game charging time is way off.

I checked Websters mod and changed

E_propulsion (all values) and Ranges (submerged values)

from the FOTRSU S-Boat to his, using S3ditor. I hope this is okay, for my own testing purposes?

First time I modded myself SH IV, pretty proud of that.

How do these values interact?

E_propulsion
eng_power
eng_rpm
Ranges
Surfaced
miles
knots
Submerged
miles
knots

I suppose Ranges across speeds are linked with a quadratic equation of some sort, to model increased fuel / capacity usage at non-optimal speeds?

Which value determines charging speed? Is charging in-game linked to speed?

The reverse is obviously true, as you gain a knot or two when refraining from charging. In reality I believe boats were able to run at least at 2/3 without suffering any speed loss. One engine would charge while the other drives the prop shaft.
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Old 07-25-2019, 07:05 PM   #4
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I don't think there was an attempt to "model" much of anything close to reality in the game, just an attempt to control desired aspects somewhat realistically. Most of the numbers used are just "modifiers", and not actual numbers. Unfortunately, you end up with one setting affecting the others in related areas, and also in seemingly unrelated areas, so that if you change the range, you might change the actual speed the boat travels at, and / or its 'efficiency' as far as fuel usage goes, both for diesel and electric, plus maybe influence the charge times. Myself, I've never tweaked much in the sim files, and left that to CapnScurvy since he's a more experienced modder, by a long shot. But you can do what you want, since it is your game. Tweak to your heart's content. Doing so does make it more difficult for us to track troubles you might encounter, but it's not the end of the world if you alter things...

I would suggest though, that you build yourself a mini-mod for each aspect that you want to experiment with, so that if something fails, you can easily rollback your changes. In other words, create a folder in the MODS folder, and name it like "SBoatEdits". Under that, create a "Data" folder. Under that, a "Submarine" folder, and under that, an "NSS_S18" folder (or which ever boat you're modding). Then copy the sim file from the game over into the new folder you made, and edit it how you think will be good, then "activate" your mod, and see how it works. If it doesn't, or you want to change it, just back off the mod, do more edits, and re-activate it. If you find something you like, let us know, and we can "certify" it for you as an "official" FotRSU mod to share with others, or even incorporate it into the mod, if you want, giving you full credit for the edits, with your permission...

As a side note, you might notice in FotRSU (stock is similar) that the S18 has 17 files in its "Submarine" folder, while the S42 only has five. The S42 uses the main files of the S18 for its 3D build, such that changes you make to the S18 are also reflected in the S42, unless you alter the eqp, or sns, etc files. The S42 is a small clone of the S18 boat. They both have separate sets of cfg files, but share the same 3D files.
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Old 07-25-2019, 07:11 PM   #5
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This is extremely helpful. I will set up my mini mod as per your suggestion. I don't mess with 3D files or textures, as appearance isn't my main concern and as I find tweaking values much more interesting and rewarding
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Old 07-26-2019, 06:05 AM   #6
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Is Webster still active? Maybe he could chime in with his understanding of how the game models charging / fuel consumption and efficiency decreases at non-optimal speeds.

Any pointers to real-life
  • ranges
  • charging times
  • and consumption of fuel or battery capacity at various speeds

are also welcome.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:03 AM   #7
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https://pigboats.com/subs/s-boats.html Mostly pictures
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:09 AM   #8
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https://maritime.org/doc/subsinpacific.htm#pg4

According to this source:
Quote:
A 120 cell electric storage battery was provided for submerged operations. When fully charged, the battery provided a submerged endurance of about 36 hours at creeping speed of about 2 1/2 knots, and maximum speed of 10 knots for about 1/2 hour.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propbeanie View Post
Then copy the sim file from the game over into the new folder you made, and edit it how you think will be good, then "activate" your mod, and see how it works. If it doesn't, or you want to change it, just back off the mod, do more edits, and re-activate it.
How do I ensure my version of the .sim is used, and not the FOTRSU version? Load my mini mod first?

Quote:
If you find something you like, let us know, and we can "certify" it for you as an "official" FotRSU mod to share with others, or even incorporate it into the mod, if you want, giving you full credit for the edits, with your permission...
Yes, when I found a satisfactory model for the S-Boats you will absolutely have my permission to use it in FOTRSU.
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Old 07-26-2019, 09:59 AM   #10
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Comparison of values across different mods an real values (from several sites on the internet)

https://ibb.co/S600Hrc
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Old 07-26-2019, 10:10 AM   #11
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Keep in mind sometimes you can’t just give the « official » value found on any site...
For instance, i gave the real exact drough number value (found on UBoat.net) to my IX D2, and ingame it was not good

So we always have to find compromise...and adapt.
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Old 07-26-2019, 10:24 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fifi View Post
Keep in mind sometimes you can’t just give the « official » value found on any site...
For instance, i gave the real exact drough number value (found on UBoat.net) to my IX D2, and ingame it was not good

So we always have to find compromise...and adapt.
Very true. However, the researched values as per my table are corroborated from several reasonably reliable sources (naval history sites, US navy history sites, original documents, etc.). They are also in agreement with reported distances, speeds and travel times from war reports. I believe these values to be accurate.

My main concern are now the following:
  • How does the game model recharging
  • How is rpm related to the other values or is it just cosmetic for accurate propeller speeds
  • How is engine power related to the other values
  • Are there any other files that govern ranges, speeds and consumption of fuel or battery capacity respectively

If I change my min mod, do I need to start a new game or will a save game iaccept the changed values of NSS_18.sim?

I put the researched values into the .sim file and I will now test these, to see if the boat behaves realistically.
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Old 07-26-2019, 02:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowFin View Post

If I change my min mod, do I need to start a new game or will a save game iaccept the changed values of NSS_18.sim?
.
I think it will accept the new value.
But best is start new career, we never know a future issue...
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Old 07-26-2019, 03:38 PM   #14
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I think it accepts the changed values.

I traveled submerged at 2 kts for 12.5 hrs and the Battery went from 51 to 46. That's much less battery capacity drainage than stock/FOTRSU/Webster. However, I would have expected it to go down further. At 2.5 kts the endurance of a full battery is said to have been 36 hrs in reality. I would have expected it to go down to about 20, rather than just 46. So it seems that there is a behind-the-scene conversion going on.
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Old 07-27-2019, 11:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowFin View Post
Is Webster still active? Maybe he could chime in with his understanding of how the game models charging / fuel consumption and efficiency decreases at non-optimal speeds.

Any pointers to real-life
  • ranges
  • charging times
  • and consumption of fuel or battery capacity at various speeds

are also welcome.
no im not around much but i try to pop in now and then when i can but it can be weeks or months sometimes before i do.

as for your question, well now thats the can of worms i ran into with them, i literally surrendered after fighting it modding and testing for weeks and had to settle for the changes i got which were at least better then nothing and had them no longer acting as super boats

the s-boat game files are so utterly fubar that my mod was the best i could do and its not even half way to where it should be

if the fuel range and battery charge ranges are changed any more then i did then i found it would default to super subs that never run out of fuel or batteries and damage was equally as much a struggle

i think it would be easier to start over and draw up brand new files for the s-boats because the ones in the game, in my opinion, are unfixable and impossible to even find what values they use since the ones in the s-boats files certainly get little or no results to changes you make.

its been so long i cant even remember but you should be able to add my mod without it having any affect on the sound at all, my mod only changes the s-boat file folders

worst case open my mod and see what values i used for the s-boat and then copy the s-boat files from FOTRS to your desktop to mod them and then change those s-boat files to match the ones in my mod and then you have made it FOTRS compatible

you can read more about it then i can even remember about it here https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...d.php?t=157608
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Last edited by Webster; 07-27-2019 at 11:31 PM.
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