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Old 12-28-2021, 05:35 PM   #391
Molon Labe
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Where are the Carriers?

Doing this for my own benefit, really. This thread has become one of the most convenient ways for me to check on past events to try to inform current decisions:

Fleet Carriers

Akagi: Torpedoed by S-29 on 23 June 1942. Damage did not appear serious at the time. Intel reported sunk 6/24/42, then reported still in service 9/20/42. Fighter squadron seen operating in Chengchow, China on 4 Sept 42, but appears absent on 20 Sept 42--airwing likely returned to ship after repairs completed. Likely received 7/1942 upgrade while under repair.

Kaga: Last seen 19 September 1942, torpedoed by Albacore in Bay of Bengal operating with Junyo (and probably Hiyo). Continued fight operations after torpedo hit. Confirmed to have NOT yet received 7/1942 upgrade. Prior damage from CVW-8 Devastator on 16 June 42 in Coral Sea, causing aviation gas explosion.

Soryu: Sunk by CVW-2 14 Feb 1942

Hiryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku: Operational, believed to be operating with Kido Butai. KB last seen near Canton Island 8 Sept 1942. Not believed to have received 7/1942 upgrades prior to 8 Sept 42.

Junyo: Confirmed present in Bay of Bengal 20 Sept 1942. Previous deployment as part of the KB, 21 July 1942, supporting the evacuation of ground forces from Lahaina, Hawaii.

Hiyo: Believed present in Bay of Bengal 20 Sept 1942 (fighter squadron reported present). Present for battle of Port Blair 20 August 1942. Hit by 2 torpedoes from Albacores on 31 July 1942. Intel reports sunk 8/25/42.

Light and Escort Carriers:

CVL Ryujo - hit by two heavyweight torpedoes on 1/17, definitely disabled, likely sunk. Intel reports sunk 1/31/42.
CVL Shoho - damaged by heavyweight torpedo hit 2/3/42. Damaged by CVW-8 Helldiver 16 June 42 in the Coral Sea.
CVL Zuiho - likely sunk 2/14/42 (4 bomb hits, 1 air-dropped torpedo hit). Intel reports sunk same day.
CVE Hosho - sunk by 2 heavyweight torpedo hits 1/19/42
CVE Taiyo - sunk 2/14/42 (6 bomb hits)
CVE Unyo: Hit by torpedo from Albacore 20 August 1942 off Port Blair, damage did not appear severe. Intel reports sank same day.

CS Chitose: sunk in surface action in Celebes Sea as part of an amphibious task force (USS Marblehead leading formation), 10 December 1941
CS Chiyoda, CS Nisshin, CS Mizuho: Rufe float fighters have been spotted with the Kido Butai as well as the CVBG operating in the Bay of Bengal, indicating these ships are operating with the fleet carriers.


Unfinished:
CVE Chuho: 11/22/42
CVL Ryuho: 11/24/42
CV Taiho: 1/27/43 (cost: 206)
CV Unryu: 4/8/43 (cost: 122)
CV Amagi 4/10/43 (cost: 122)
CV Katsuragi: 5/14/43 (cost: 122)
CV Shinano: 5/31/43 (cost: 314)
CVE Kaiyo: 12/3/43
CVE Shinyo: 12/19/43
CVE Yamashira Maru: 2/4/45
CVE Shimane Maru: 2/8/45
CVL Ibuki: 4/26/45
CVE Chigusa Maru: 6/22/45
CV Ikoma: 6/20/45
CV Aso: 6/24/45
(cost-adjusted arrival dates represent previously-calculated acceleration)
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Old 12-28-2021, 05:52 PM   #392
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When reading your lastest post I started to wonder
How many Carrier of different type did IJN have during WWII ?

In total they had 30

Fleet carriers 13
Escort carriers 10
Light carriers 7

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Old 12-28-2021, 09:22 PM   #393
Molon Labe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapuc View Post
When reading your lastest post I started to wonder
How many Carrier of different type did IJN have during WWII ?

In total they had 30

Fleet carriers 13
Escort carriers 10
Light carriers 7

Markus
Good call, I have a bunch missing. Adding them....
...and the Chuho and Ryuho are close enough that they're probably already in service!
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Old 12-29-2021, 02:27 AM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapuc View Post
When reading your lastest post I started to wonder
How many Carrier of different type did IJN have during WWII ?

In total they had 30

Fleet carriers 13
Escort carriers 10
Light carriers 7

Markus

Many of the carriers were unique ships or classes made up of two ships, like all pre-war carriers. Only during the war Japan started to build larger classes of carriers (and ultimately failed). Molon Lobe's list is pretty complete, missing only Ikoma, Chiyoda and Chitose.


IJN Fleet Carriers:
Akagi (battlecruiser conversion)
Kaga (battleship conversion)
Soryu
Hiryu (different enough from Soryu to be labelled as a class of its own)
Shokaku and Zuikaku
Hiyo (ocean liner conversion)
Jun'yo (ocean liner conversion)
Taiho
Unryu class: Unryu, Amagi and Katsuragi completed and commissioned; Kasagi and Aso launched, but cancelled during late building stages.
Ikoma class (modified Unryu class): Ikoma launched, but cancelled after having been built up to the flight deck, one further ship cancelled very early during the construction, possibly even before building had begun (sources aren't clear about that).
Shinano

Total: 13 finished + 3 cancelled in late building stages + (possibly) 1 cancelled in early building stage.

Ikoma is missing in Molon Lobe's list, but even if she had been completed she would not have been commissioned before 1946.


IJN Light Carriers:
Hosho
Ryujo
Zuiho and Shoho (converted submarine tenders)
Ryuho (converted submarine tender)
Chitose and Chiyoda (converted seaplane carriers)
Ibuki (cruiser conversion), cancelled during the very late building stages

Total: 7 finished + 1 cancelled

Chitose and Chiyoda are missing in Molon Lobe's list, probably because they are currently around as seaplane tenders and need to be upgraded to a CVL rather than being in the building queue.


IJN Escort Carriers:
Taiyo class (converted cargo ships): Taiyo, Un'yo and Chuyo
Kaiyo (converted ocean liner)
Shin'yo (converted German ocean liner)
Shimane Maru class (oconverted oil tankers, basically they were the Japanese version of the MAC ships): Shimane Maru completed and commissioned; Otakisan Maru, Daiju Maru and Taisha Maru never completed.

Total: 6 finished + 3 cancelled

Chuyo is on Molon Lobe's list as Chuho. The three missing Shimane Marus would never have been finished before the end of 1945.


IJA Carriers:
Akitsu Maru and Nigitsu Maru (converted passenger liners). Although these can be counted as CVEs they actually were landing ships with a small flight deck and no hangar.
Yamashira Maru and Chigusa Maru (converted oil tankers): barely fulfilling the CVE classification.
Kumano Maru (converted cargo ship), barely fulfilling the CVE classification, its was actually an aircraft ferry which could launch its stored aircraft rather than unload them.

Total: 5 finished

Only the two Yamashira Marus are on Molon Lobe's list. The others are missing, very likely due to the fact that all these Army ships were just barely capable of operating aircraft. The Yamashira Marus were planned to be used as convoy escorts (they were even armed with depth charges and launchers for them), so I can see why they have been included in the game despite only carrying eight aircraft, but the other three have been left out for good reasons IMO.

Last edited by Ostfriese; 12-29-2021 at 06:17 AM.
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Old 12-29-2021, 08:56 AM   #395
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Oh, fine, I'll add the seaplane carriers!
Also, I managed to miss the Ikoma, so I'll add it too. Thanks!
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Old 12-29-2021, 09:40 AM   #396
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20 September 1942
Large losses for British dive bombers, Zeroes in China

Okinawa
USS Haddock got into a night surface action with a light cargo ship near Amami Oshima, getting close enough to rake it with .50 and .30 caliber machine guns. The enemy ship took enough damage to cause a small fire, while the Haddock was also hit. I've ordered it home for repairs.

Luzon Strait
USS Tuna torpedoed a cargo ship twice, one of which detonated. We believe the ship sank later in the day.

China
Between sweeps of Chengchow and an attempt at intercepting some of our bombers we're sending after enemy troops trying to get west of Chengchow's river, we shot down 10 Zeroes and an Oscar with no losses. One US pilot claimed 5 kills in these engagements (his #11-15), making this the first ace-in-a-day achievement scored against enemy fighters instead of bombers.

CENTPAC
No mines detected at Lahaina! Let's give the sweeper another day to be sure. Also, not taking artillery fire from shore, so that's good.

Bay of Bengal
The British Vengeance dive bomber squadron (9 operational) attempted an attack on the Junyo with 11 US P-40s escorting. The Zeroes shot down 2 P-40s with one loss. They shot down 6 bombers before they attacked, and the other 3 afterwards. The three that attacked all missed. The CAP was 60 planes, indicating that the Kaga is still operational.

Intel
Previous report of sinking of CV Akagi incorrect. Intelligence reports ship is still in service

Reinforcements
AO Suamico arrives at Balboa
AO Olwen arrives at Abadan
9 RAAF Base Force arrives at Sydney
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Old 12-29-2021, 10:51 AM   #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
Oh, fine, I'll add the seaplane carriers!
Also, I managed to miss the Ikoma, so I'll add it too. Thanks!

Can you actually upgrade Chitose (if it hadn't been sunk) and Chiyoda to light carriers?


And based on what you wrote earlier I guess that the Japanese carriers arriving in 1945 won't play a major role anyway, because the game should long be decided by then.
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Old 12-29-2021, 01:08 PM   #398
Molon Labe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ostfriese View Post
Can you actually upgrade Chitose (if it hadn't been sunk) and Chiyoda to light carriers?


And based on what you wrote earlier I guess that the Japanese carriers arriving in 1945 won't play a major role anyway, because the game should long be decided by then.
Yes, the CS to CVL conversion becomes available in 11/1942.
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Old 12-29-2021, 01:46 PM   #399
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21 September 1942
Air war: 18 to 2, Japan's pilot quality in crisis

Bay of Bengal
The entire Bay is lousy with enemy submarines, and they tried to interdict my CVBG as it pulled back to Colombo. We ended up in a 3-part engagement with the I-9, as our escorts pursued it relentlessly after it was spotted. It was damaged slightly the first time, evaded us the second, but we hit it hard with multiple patterns in the 3rd. I think she's gone.

A second sub that tried to attack the battle group was also driven off with light damage.

Japan
USS Tautog sank a light cargo ship off Naha in a night surface torpedo attack.

Burma
Most enemy airpower is supporting bombing raids on my armies in Tavoy--those fighters shot down one of my Hurricanes. They also swept Rangoon with 24 Oscars. 10 of them didn't make it back--and they shot down absolutely nothing (our CAP was 22 Hurricanes).

Solomons
The Ndeni op isn't going too great, we still haven't overcome the garrison, and today our marines were bombed by a few Kates being escorted by Nicks--only one P-38 responded, which is a really bad sign that this base is just too far away even for the P-38s.

Malaya
Bombing Singapore is a thing again. Remember the Repulse? Its wreck is still in port there. She took another 19 non-penetrating bomb hits.

China
At Chengchow, we had a coorindation foulup that allowed some Zeroes to get to A-29 bombers, so we lost one of them. But we met the enemy sweeps and took down 8 Zeroes with no losses.

So, we went 18 to 2 in the air with them today, with their only kills being a badly outnumbered CAP fighter and a bomber with no escort. Our kills were all fighter-on-fighter. Especially after shooting down 10 Zeroes without loss yesterday, it's hard for me not to conclude that enemy pilot attrition has hollowed out the enemy air forces.

I also moved some Lysander light bombers to my recently acquired airbase at Amoy. Their job is going to be to patrol the Taiwan Strait and try to get a little recon on the enemy bases at Pescadores and Takao. Hopefully any ships at sea they detect we can refer to submarines, and if there are ships in port we can get them with the heavy and medium bombers that are moving into the region.

Refits and Reinforcements
SS Pickerel begins refit while under repair at Brisbane
AM Pursuit arrives at Seattle
166 Wing arrives at Aden (aviation support-already loading up for Colombo)
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:31 AM   #400
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22 September 1942
Enemy counterattack, auxiliary losses in Bay of Bengal and Solomons

Ceram Sea
The KXII attacked a convoy of cargo ships passing between islands, scoring two hits on one of them for a confirmed kill. There would be many ships sunk today--but this will be the only one that's Japanese.

Solomons
The western "encroachment force was engaged at night be a single enemy destroyer, which I am a bit embarrassed to say I was unprepared for. This task force is under the protection of bombers from Milne, but that doesn't do them any good overnight. So, that one destroyer took on my landing force: 2 minesweepers (ASW escorts), 3 transports, and one cargo ship, and pretty much wiped the fleet out.
Japanese Ships
DD Natsushio
Allied Ships
AM Katoomba, Shell hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Nightingale, Shell hits 6, on fire
AM Kiwi, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
xAP Malaita, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAP Taroona, Shell hits 5, on fire
xAP Nairana, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk

The two damaged survivors are trying to make it to Townsville. The Natsushio managed not to be detected by scoutplanes in the day, so a retaliatory airstrike never came. This task force has already accomplished its mission, so this doesn't affect my operation beyond that I need my follow-up forces delivering base forces to pause to get a more robust escort.

On the southeast flank of the Solomons, our covering force shelled Ndeni again, and that along with the bomber strikes put our troops over the top. Ndeni is ours, granted there are still enemy troops on the island. That came at a price, though, as Kates started harassing the ships, 26 total with 11 Nick escorts. P-38s splashed 2 Nicks and 4 Kates, and 3 more Kates were lost to flak. Two of the Kates scored bomb hits on the heavy cruiser Australia--nothing it can't handle.

In spite of his flights against Ndeni, he still had 24 Nicks greeting my B-17s attacking Guadalcanal. I lost 2 of the bombers and damage from the strike was minimal.

Bay of Bengal
Madras, India came under attack by the enemy CVBG as well as land-based air from Port Blair. This port does not currently have fighter protection, and is home to a small cargo fleet used to keep Colombo supplied. It's also where the transport task force that recently evacuated Calcutta ran to.

The first wave was 21 Betties, one of which put a bomb into a cargo ship in the harbor. Next was 12 Kates and 13 Vals (48 Zeroes escorting):
AMc Agra
xAK Bandra, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AM Poole, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk
xAK Barpeta, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Honolulan, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Washingtonian, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
and a second wave from the carriers:
Allied Ships
xAKL Chaksang, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
AMc Agra, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk

Losing the minesweepers hurts, we don't have enough ASW escorts in this region. Aside from that, these are all low-value ships.

China
We held off another land attack at Chengchow, this time the assault dropped our forts to Level 3. Casualties 11706 to 5283. Both sides lost a fighter overhead.

Burma and India
We attempted an attack on Tavoy now that more reserves had arrived. It failed, casualties 1389 to 379 favoring the enemy. This loss means I have to accept that my reserve forces aren't enough to get the job done. I'm going to pull my main force out from near Bangkok and send the whole thing here. Then I'll leave enough at Tavoy to hold it while bringing the bulk of the main force back to Bangkok.

We've retaken Cox's Bazaar, India. Going to hold off on buying out any of these guys to send them south, for now.

Reinforcements
AM Inverell arrives at Rockhampton
167 Wing arrives at Aden
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:54 AM   #401
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Thought it could be interesting to compare this version of war in the pacific and the real timeline.

Found this page war in the pacific day by day(in general)

https://www.historyplace.com/uniteds...r/timeline.htm

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Old 12-30-2021, 11:02 AM   #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapuc View Post
Thought it could be interesting to compare this version of war in the pacific and the real timeline.

Found this page war in the pacific day by day(in general)

https://www.historyplace.com/uniteds...r/timeline.htm

Markus

Very nice overview, bookmarked. Thank you.
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Old 12-30-2021, 02:20 PM   #403
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How many Carrier did USA have in dec. 1941 ?

From following page
https://bluejacket.com/ww2_12-07-41_carriers.html

"On 7 December 1941, the U.S. Navy had seven aircraft carriers (CVs) and one aircraft escort vessel (AVG) in commission. The CVs were considered warships and the AVG was considered an auxiliary vessel. In addition to these eight ships, the keels of five other CVs had been laid."

If I remember correctly five of these was in the pacific or on route to the pacific.

How many was build during WWII ? According to wiki 151 aircraft carriers were built in the U.S. during World War II; 122 of them were Escort Carriers.

Molon must soon get a few of these carrier/escort carrier.

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Old 12-30-2021, 04:29 PM   #404
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American pre-war carriers:

Langley (converted into a seaplane tender in 1937)
Lexington Class (converted battlecruisers): Lexington and Saratoga
Ranger: the first American ship designed as a carrier from the beginning
Yorktown Class: Yorktown, Enterprise and Hornet
Wasp
Long Island: Escort carrier, often overlooked, transferred her air group to Guadalcanal in August 1942, the first aircraft to reach Henderson Field.

American fleet carriers built during the war:
Essex Class: 24 Ships built, 1 commissioned in 1942, 6 commissioned in 1943, 7 commisioned in 1944, 5 commissioned in 1945 (3 of them before the end of the war), the remaining ships between 1946 and 1950.
Midway Class: 3 ships, 2 commissioned in late 1945, the third commissioned in 1947.

American light carriers built during the war:
Independence Class: 9 ships, all commissioned in 1943
Saipan Class: 2 ships, 1 commissioned in 1946, one in 1947

American escort carriers built during the war:
Bogue Class: 47 ships, of which 11 were used by the US Navy. 6 commissioned in 1942, 5 commissioned in 1943.
Sangamon Class (converted from oilers): 4 ships, all commissioned in August/September 1942
Casablanca Class: 50 ships, 25 commissioned in 1943, 25 in 1944
Commencement Bay Class: 19 ships, 2 commissioned late in 1944, 13 commissioned in 1945 (8 before the end of the war, 5 after the end of the war), 2 commissioned in 1946, 2 never commissioned.


As the Allies cannot rush anything in the game the carriers should arrive on their historical arrival dates, which means that right now Molon Lobe should have some of the Bogues and the Sangamons (probably not all of them, as they were also used in the Atlantic historically).
The biggest addition will be USS Essex in December 1942, and during the first half of 1943 there should be a surge of CVL and CVE arriving along with a couple of Essexes, so by July 1st, 1943 Molon Lobe should easily outnumber anything the Japanese can muster even if they don't lose any of their carriers until then.
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Old 12-30-2021, 04:35 PM   #405
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You're right thank you.
As you wrote
The carriers should arrive on their historical arrival dates

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