[REL] Dark Waters

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

The player boats are practically (shell and bomb and) bullet-proof, for the player's benefit... who wants to die in their first DC attack?... kind of like getting hit by a circle-runner torpedo and not sinking right away, if at all?... lol -

We did incur hull damage there, but it took a bit for the boat to sink. I have also been hit in a fleet boat, and NOT sunk. I'm sure you have experienced similar. The thing with Dark Waters, which is lurker's OpMonsun dressed-up of course, is that a lot of the boats are SH3 imports, and as such, their "damage models" had to be built, with some aspects / portions apparently overlooked... I haven't dug too deeply into them, but it wouldn't surprise me if even the IX-D2 isn't from SH3 also...

i still don't understand why the game did not register some hull damage.
UBI designers, what can i say?

[KaleunMarco]

We were headed out to our patrol zone when we met up with a "convoy" of B-24's. 5 or 6 or 7 of them bombed the crap out of a piece of the Atlantic, killed a lot of fish. Oddly, the first two B-24's crashed and burned. i have a screen shot of the wreckage. Never saw that kind of behaviour before.



i also discovered that the Objective fulfillment logic is really wonky.
i modified the mission requirements to have two levels of tonnage goals.
the lower one was 5000 tons. when/if that is completed, a second objective appears for another 5000 tons.
while on patrol, we run into a convoy and have our way with it. beau coup tankers and large freighters are sunk, totaling more than 10,000 tons.
however, only the first 5000-ton-goal is marked as completed. the second-5000-ton goal spawned but is still incomplete.
draw your own conclusions.

[propbeanie]

That is one of several things left as-is in Dark Waters from the OpMonsun original, and that is the CrewRating used by the Units, as well as how many attack. There is a good bit of SH3 campaign copied and converted from SH3 to SH4 in OpMonsun, hence the larger, basically inappropriate groupings of planes, plus if you're near an AirBase and planes spawn automatically, there will be multiples of the same Class that come after you. My guess is that you probably encountered the Navy blue B-24 Liberator, which was a PB4Y-1 in Navy nomenclature. In SH4, they can carry rockets later, as well as carry enough bombs to empty a square mile of ocean of its fishies... At least two of those planes were probably set to Level 3, or Competent at best, and as such, they do not fly very well, especially in the attack and egress phases, hence the crashes. If you feel adventurous and don't have anything better to do, you could go through and look for Groups of B-24 Liberators and make them no more than 2 planes in each group, unless they are the LevelBomber variety on their way to Berlin... AirBase AirGroups should also be limited to no more than 2 of such planes. The screen grabs will prove quite entertaining, I'm sure.

As for the tonnage Objectives in SH4... this is ~another~ frustrating aspect of the game. You sail from home port with orders to "Proceed immediately to area X and standby for further orders". That "objective" is associated with a MapZone, which upon completion then generates the "Sink all ships found" kind of thang. While you can generate the same thing from a completed objective, the game basically wants you to re-create the whole thing again with the MapZone, "proceed to the MapZone Area" and then generate the Tonnage "sink" mission... Seems to me that it can be rather frustrating still to get it to properly complete... I would have to pull out my notes, that are hidden so well that even I cannot find them... sigh - However, you can create one with a "Patrol" objective, but it still requires that separate MapZone, reaching it, and then generating the "sink" tonnage objective... If I am not mistaken, I have done that with a 2nd MapZone inside the first, and that worked for my "sink" trip... maybe... Remember though, there is NO "logic" in the game, so a person cannot think logically and have it function as expected... - if you ever wonder "why?" on some aspects of the game, it is "because"...

[KaleunMarco]

what would it take to add some fighter bases to western france to support Uboats transiting the Bay of Biscay?

theoretically, a kaleun could dispatch them like the recon planes, today.
if the theoretical fighters met up with the ASW aircraft from Coastal Command, would they fight?

i would be interested to know how this could be accomplished.

[propbeanie]

Exclusively "fighter" bases can be done by "cloning" the existing "LAB_SmallAirBaseGe" and renaming it something like "LAB_FigherAirBaseGe" or whatever. Don't forget the Roster file, and to re-map the IDs of the binary files. You then take the Land folders cfg file, and limit the AirGroups to a fighter plane or two - don't do too many. You could also "date" multiple AirGroups, like on the CV in the game. The thing with "fighter" aircraft is "no, they do not fight each other"... a massive oversight on the devs part. In SH2, OK, understandable. SH3 is stretching it, but to bring the ~same~ krapp into SH4 is inexcusable... while "accurate" AI dogfights would be difficult, the least they could do is shoot at each other on their way by... My guess is that, similar to the way planes will attack a ship until they are a flaming fireball and/ or shot down, similar probably happened if they go to attack each other, in that ~that~ would be all that the planes would do... all of them, including level bombers...

Now, another thing to remember about AirBases, is that if you happen to "see" an enemy target (which can happen without your periscope being raised, but at periscope depth, since the XO counter-manded your "do NOT raise the periscope!!!" order), and there is an AirBase within range, the airbase will send a "response" your way, whether you fone home or not. When you use the grease pencil, you are specifically telling a "scout" plane where to go. Look through some of the Land folder things that lurker did with the original OpMonsun, which are still in Dark Waters, and you'll see examples of some of his cloned airbases. He has some for specific air groups at specific time frames in specific locations for the mod. He also cloned the air base that is controllable by the grease pencil to restrict it to certain planes at certain locations and time. I do not know if you can control fighters and regular bombers the same way, but I have never tried...

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Exclusively "fighter" bases can be done by "cloning" the existing "LAB_SmallAirBaseGe" and renaming it something like "LAB_FigherAirBaseGe" or whatever. Don't forget the Roster file, and to re-map the IDs of the binary files. You then take the Land folders cfg file, and limit the AirGroups to a fighter plane or two - don't do too many. You could also "date" multiple AirGroups, like on the CV in the game. The thing with "fighter" aircraft is "no, they do not fight each other"... a massive oversight on the devs part. In SH2, OK, understandable. SH3 is stretching it, but to bring the ~same~ krapp into SH4 is inexcusable... while "accurate" AI dogfights would be difficult, the least they could do is shoot at each other on their way by... My guess is that, similar to the way planes will attack a ship until they are a flaming fireball and/ or shot down, similar probably happened if they go to attack each other, in that ~that~ would be all that the planes would do... all of them, including level bombers...

Now, another thing to remember about AirBases, is that if you happen to "see" an enemy target (which can happen without your periscope being raised, but at periscope depth, since the XO counter-manded your "do NOT raise the periscope!!!" order), and there is an AirBase within range, the airbase will send a "response" your way, whether you fone home or not. When you use the grease pencil, you are specifically telling a "scout" plane where to go. Look through some of the Land folder things that lurker did with the original OpMonsun, which are still in Dark Waters, and you'll see examples of some of his cloned airbases. He has some for specific air groups at specific time frames in specific locations for the mod. He also cloned the air base that is controllable by the grease pencil to restrict it to certain planes at certain locations and time. I do not know if you can control fighters and regular bombers the same way, but I have never tried...

if i created German fighter bases and they appear on the map and i use the grease pencil to activate them and during their patrol they encounter British Coastal Command aircraft, will they engage?

[KaleunMarco]

has anyone been able to use either of these two boats in a career?
i've tried each and as soon as i begin the first mission, CTD.

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
[C:\Ubisoft\Dark Waters\MODS]

100 OM_DarkWaters_V6
110 OM_Harder_Escort_L2
120 OM_Strategic_Map_Symbols
130 OM_UMark
140 OM_Warm_Clothes
150 OM_U-Jagd
160 OM_Med_Env
180 Voice Mod
jimimadrid Torpedos
900 DarkWaters V6_Errors-fix(fixes air-land-sea-eqp disconnects from Stock)

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

if i created German fighter bases and they appear on the map and i use the grease pencil to activate them and during their patrol they encounter British Coastal Command aircraft, will they engage?

See above

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

has anyone been able to use either of these two boats in a career?
i've tried each and as soon as i begin the first mission, CTD.

Generic Mod Enabler - v2.6.0.157
[C:\Ubisoft\Dark Waters\MODS]

100 OM_DarkWaters_V6
110 OM_Harder_Escort_L2
120 OM_Strategic_Map_Symbols
130 OM_UMark
140 OM_Warm_Clothes
150 OM_U-Jagd
160 OM_Med_Env
180 Voice Mod
jimimadrid Torpedos
900 DarkWaters V6_Errors-fix(fixes air-land-sea-eqp disconnects from Stock)

Try removing the jimimadrid Torpedos mod. Lurker did edits to the Torpedo file set in OM, which are in DW, and that might be a conflict... I'll try my DW shortly and see what I get.

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

See above

OK, with that in mind, move over to the Pacific.
What about the air battles that create the lifeguard missions in the Solomons, etc?

[propbeanie]

Fake... lol - the planes are "scripted" in most mods and stock, and both sides will be in the "scene" at the same time, but notice that they do not dogfight... lol


As for the CareerStarts, using just Dark Waters:





I did not attempt to sink anything yet, currently driving the XXIII...

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Fake... lol - the planes are "scripted" in most mods and stock, and both sides will be in the "scene" at the same time, but notice that they do not dogfight... lol

you HAVE to be kidding me!?!?!?
so, the "scripted" engagements are airedales doing loop-de-loops and then crashing into the ocean on the hopes that one of us will rescue them?

Originally Posted by propbeanie

As for the CareerStarts, using just Dark Waters:
I did not attempt to sink anything yet, currently driving the XXIII...

well, that figures.
why didn't you get the old IT-troubleshooting stamp that says: probable user error.

p.s. the problem is the DW Errors Fix mod. apparently, DW cannot abide the Stock errors being fixed.
so...i guess we will remove that mod and sail on.

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

you HAVE to be kidding me!?!?!?
so, the "scripted" engagements are airedales doing loop-de-loops and then crashing into the ocean on the hopes that one of us will rescue them?

Shhh... don't tell anyone, but the "Rescue Targets" are also scripted... If a US plane does happen to crash within the designated target zone, then yes, he counts toward the rescue count, but outside the zone, they do not - though you can pick them up. You cannot pick-up Japanese survivors though to bring them in for questioning... which really, they should have allowed that,..

Originally Posted by KaleunMarco

well, that figures.
why didn't you get the old IT-troubleshooting stamp that says: probable user error.

p.s. the problem is the DW Errors Fix mod. apparently, DW cannot abide the Stock errors being fixed.
so...i guess we will remove that mod and sail on.

Ahhh... good find. Yeah, you could activate all of your Dark Waters mods, then run the tools for a "fix pack", which might be slightly necessary, but probably won't yield as many errors as the Stock game has, since those tools were run during DW development, but I am almost 99.9% certain there are still errors in the Campaign, due to infecting them anew with edits for DW ( guilty! ), but also from existing errors that are both of the type that are difficult to track down, except with a BUNCH of campaign testing...

[KaleunMarco]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Ahhh... good find. Yeah, you could activate all of your Dark Waters mods, then run the tools for a "fix pack", which might be slightly necessary, but probably won't yield as many errors as the Stock game has, since those tools were run during DW development, but I am almost 99.9% certain there are still errors in the Campaign, due to infecting them anew with edits for DW ( guilty! ), but also from existing errors that are both of the type that are difficult to track down, except with a BUNCH of campaign testing...

that is what i did...and the Fix Mod was the result.
this is the first time SH4 has encountered an issue with the fixes.
i'll have to re-set DW and try running through the fix logic...again.
i have a couple of tools: Toolkit 1.9 and 2.0 which i believe are both Hebe's and markedly different in scope.
what other tools do you use to detect the Air-Sea-Land Eqp, Date, etc defects?

p.s. there is something in the Fix-Mod that DW does not like when one creates a Type 21 or 23 career.
i re-ran Hebe's fix tool and no errors appear, yet DW goes CTD when starting a Type 21 or 23 career.
none of the fixes are for those Uboats or their equipment so it will be deuce-difficult to troubleshoot.

[propbeanie]

Hmmmm - had you emptied the Save folder after applying that fix pack? Some changes that are made will make the Saves craptastic...

TDW's SH Validator is another tool we've used. It can run from anywhere on the computer. Just tell it you are checking SH4, and point it to the folder. There are some caveats when checking the German side of the game, of coursre... The proggy was written pre-Gold SH4, so is only directly designed to check the "Data / Campaigns / Campaign" folder.

The way to get around that "restriction" is to rename the US side in "Campaigns / Campaign..." to be Campaigns / CampaignUS". That way, you can change the name of "Campaigns / CampaignGE" to "Campaigns / Campaign". You also have to move the files out of "Campaigns / Campaign(GE) / CampaignData" into the newly renamed "Campaign" folder. If you want to check the SingleMissions and other files outside the Campaign folder, drag copies of them into the "Campaigns / Campaign / PatrolObjectives" folder, since that folder and its contents are also checked. Now, I have messed-up more than one install of OpMonsun and/or Dark Waters from NOT getting things back where they belong afterwards, so what I did the last time, was to do a "fake" install and work on that. Make my mod, and then test it in the good install. Just be certain of your folder structure, of course, when you build your changes...

Also, in spite of the warnings that TDW will display, the Campaign is indeed checked. He just never added the detected issues to the log file before he finished modding the SH series, so after the app runs, create a log file, and then open it with Notepad++ or similar, and then at the bottom of TDWs app windows, find all of the entries that are flagged with "******** " leading and trailing, and copy those file names and errors into the log file for your posteriors's sake, and future editing... Thing is, even with Hebe's Tool, and TDW's tool, there are still quite a few errors that are not caught...