[WIP] "Lochinvar" Clyde puffer

[gap]

As promised, here are some quick renders of the UV-mapped and AO-backed Lochinvar model. I hope you like them guys

[kapuhy]

Looks great Especially the bow area is so cool with that winch and all the details around it.

[gap]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Looks great Especially the bow area is so cool with that winch and all the details around it.

The windlass - as well as anchor and rudder chains - was one of the last features I added and probably the most challenging part to be modelled. Unlike other details, it was only drafted on the plan I used as template, so for the most part I had to figure out shapes and proportions from pictures of puffer scale models. It was a little PITA but I hope that the final result, with all the texture maps ready, will be worth all the work.

Talking about textures, I have a couple of questions for you. I am considering whether to blend ambient occlusion and diffuse map in one texture or to keep them separate and to create a second UV projection for diffuse mapping. This is a delicate step: add one new vertex to one of the 3D models (AO or diffuse), peform any operation that alters vertex/face order in the exported obj files, and the AO mapping will be scrabled.

For your small ship models, did you adopt secondary UV channel and, if so, which steps did you follow?

IIRC, you are a Blender user. I use this program mostly for special tasks (in the current model, the sail wind effect was done using Blender), but my main modelling/UV-mapping tool is Wings3D. I have read that, like 3ds Max, Blender is capable of handling multiple UV maps per object. That is indeed the safest way to deal with multiple UV maps, because you are sure that, untile you export them, all the projections apply exactly at the same object, not two copies of the same object.

As far as you know, is Blender capable of importing two or more UV maps from two identical (except for UV coordinates) obj files?

Is it possible to preview the blending of the two textures connected with each UV map directly in Blender?

When you choose to export the model as an obj file, can you choose which one of the UV maps will be exported on file?

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by gap

For your small ship models, did you adopt secondary UV channel and, if so, which steps did you follow?

Step by step, my workflow is:

1) Model the ship and UV-map it for diffuse texture
2) Paint the diffuse texture
3) Merge objects I have into "final" objects that will be exported into game
4) Create second UV channel (yes, Blender does have the option) and make it UV-map for AO texture
5) Bake AO texture on this second uv-channel
6) Export objects into GR2 editor

I never had any problem with vertex order this way.

Originally Posted by gap

As far as you know, is Blender capable of importing two or more UV maps from two identical (except for UV coordinates) obj files?

Now, with import I honestly don't know. Only ship I had to import from game was Armed Trawler I was disarming, and I didn't even bother importing second uv map - I simply baked a new AO map for modified ship and exported it to replace the old.

Originally Posted by gap

Is it possible to preview the blending of the two textures connected with each UV map directly in Blender?

Maybe, but again - I never had the need to do it so I don't know.

Originally Posted by gap

When you choose to export the model as an obj file, can you choose which one of the UV maps will be exported on file?

Yes. In Blender, one of UV maps assigned to selected object is always set as active, and it will be used for obj export. So you export object Whatever.obj, switch to second uv map, and export again changing filename to Whatever_AO.obj.

EDIT: Also regarding uv-mapping in Blender - I use 2.78, which doesn't have the option to see/edit uv map for multiple objects together, but there's an addon called Multiple UV Maps Editing which allows to do just that. In 2.80 from what I hear the option is already added.

[Jeff-Groves]

I explained LONG AGO how to trick TDW's tool to do a strict import.
Why strict? It avoids his routine that adds to the file size!
Totally implemented that routine incorrectly!

Given my troubles when logged in?
I'll not explain it all again at this time.

[gap]

Thank you for your detailed answers kapuhy

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Step by step, my workflow is:

1) Model the ship and UV-map it for diffuse texture
2) Paint the diffuse texture
3) Merge objects I have into "final" objects that will be exported into game
4) Create second UV channel (yes, Blender does have the option) and make it UV-map for AO texture
5) Bake AO texture on this second uv-channel
6) Export objects into GR2 editor

I never had any problem with vertex order this way.

Okay, then I will switch to Blender for creating the second UV map. In my case the AO UV-mapping is already done, so I will have to switch steps 1) and and 4), but I think this is not a problem.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Now, with import I honestly don't know. Only ship I had to import from game was Armed Trawler I was disarming, and I didn't even bother importing second uv map - I simply baked a new AO map for modified ship and exported it to replace the old.

Okay, from what I read in the document below that should be possible, but I will check if/how it works directly in Blender.
I find Blender's interface counterintuitive (or maybe I am just too used to Wings3D's friendliness), so I might get a little while for me to get used to it, but the advantages are definitely worth any little delay.

https://docs.blender.org/manual/en/2...anagement.html

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Maybe, but again - I never had the need to do it so I don't know.

Not a feature that you can't do without, but I would rather prefer to preview the effect of all the textures of an object directly in the 3D editor, rather than having to wait for GR2 Editor import.

Originally Posted by kapuhy

Yes. In Blender, one of UV maps assigned to selected object is always set as active, and it will be used for obj export. So you export object Whatever.obj, switch to second uv map, and export again changing filename to Whatever_AO.obj.

EDIT: Also regarding uv-mapping in Blender - I use 2.78, which doesn't have the option to see/edit uv map for multiple objects together, but there's an addon called Multiple UV Maps Editing which allows to do just that. In 2.80 from what I hear the option is already added.

Using 2.90.1 here

[gap]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

I explained LONG AGO how to trick TDW's tool to do a strict import.
Why strict? It avoids his routine that adds to the file size!
Totally implemented that routine incorrectly!

Given my troubles when logged in?
I'll not explain it all again at this time.

Jeff I am sending you an e-mail

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by gap

As promised, here are some quick renders of the UV-mapped and AO-backed Lochinvar model. I hope you like them guys

Gorgeous ! The 3D part is beautiful, except the small davit at the bow which could have a softer curvature...

Else, the shadows are a bit odd. Why aren't they symetrical relative to the Z axis ? Why are there more shadows on the vertical surfaces of the upper parts (sail, cabin, funnel, ventilators, lifeboat and base of the mast) than on the hull ? Why aren't they any dark shadows on the bottom of the hull ?

[gap]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Gorgeous ! The 3D part is beautiful, except the small davit at the bow which could have a softer curvature...

Thank you for your comments Mister_M

Yes, davit's arc could have been smoother. The same goes for vent's inner part and for many other small details, if you look at them from close enough. At some point one needs to put the word "end" to his projects, and this is the case with my puffer as long as the 3D modelling job is concerned. In future someone else might bring his own improvements to it, and I will be glad to accept them, but by then I hope I will be working on something else

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Else, the shadows are a bit odd. Why aren't they symetrical relative to the Z axis ? Why are there more shadows on the vertical surfaces of the upper parts (sail, cabin, funnel, ventilators, lifeboat and base of the mast) than on the hull ? Why aren't they any dark shadows on the bottom of the hull ?

Three factors should be considered:

1 - The screenshots I posted yesterday were taken in Wings3D. Wings is not a 3D rendering program, so don't expect too much from it. It supports the creation of scenes with various types of lights, but I never messed with them. The one source of light in my screeshots is a standard emispherical lighting which, I think, is aligned with the x axis. That's why one side of the boat looks more illuminated than the other.

2 - For the above reasons, my previews don't feature any dynamic shadow. If you compare the pictures at post #46 with the one at post #1 you will easily realize that, in the screenshots I posted more recently, the shadowing comes mostly from the ambient occlusion map. Considering that, it is logical for objects on the deck - whose exposure to diffuse light is occluded by bulwarks and superstructure - to be darker than hull. In game, this will be balanced by direct sunlight beams and by the dynamic shadows supported by the granny format.

3 - The program I used for AO-map baking is Autodesk Softimage Mod Tool 7.5. This is the free version of the program devs used for the same job in SHIV and SH5. The only manual touch ups I made to the procedural AO map, was subduing by 50% or removing the pre-rendered diffuse shadows cast by breakable model parts, otherwise those darker spots would look odd when the boat is damaged and the objects casting them are ripped away from the main model.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by gap

The screenshots I posted yesterday were taken in Wings3D. (...) The one source of light in my screeshots is a standard emispherical lighting which, I think, is aligned with the x axis.

1) Ah ok. So there are two "shadowing" parameters involved : ambiant scene light + AO map.

2) Can't you have any preview directly in Autodesk Softimage Mod Tool 7.5 ?

Originally Posted by gap

(...) it is logical for objects on the deck - whose exposure to diffuse light is occluded by bulwarks and superstructure - to be darker than hull.

3) Yes sure. But I was not talking about these objects, but mainly about the large vertical surfaces of the cabin which are all grey instead of white like the hull. And about the lifeboat which is far too much dark in my opinion. So if the texture applied to those meshes is white for example, they will appear grey even if directly exposed to the sun light...

Originally Posted by gap

The only manual touch ups I made to the procedural AO map, was (...) removing the pre-rendered diffuse shadows cast by breakable model parts, otherwise those darker spots would look odd when the boat is damaged and the objects casting them are ripped away from the main model.

https://i.imgur.com/RwG35hh.png

4) So the life buoy should not be breakable as there is a dedicated shadow for it on the cabin.

5) Other than that, one quick question : what is the sail used for, as there is already a propeller ? I doubt that it's used for propulsion purpose. Maybe for lateral maneuvers ?

[Mister_M]

sorry, duplicated post.....

[kapuhy]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

Other than that, one quick question : what is the sail used for, as there is already a propeller ? I doubt that it's used for propulsion purpose. Maybe for lateral maneuvers ?

That, and I guess with some older puffers you want to have backup propulsion in case your ancient steam engine fails.

[Mister_M]

Originally Posted by kapuhy

That, and I guess with some older puffers you want to have backup propulsion in case your ancient steam engine fails.

I doubt that this little sail was enough to move such a boat made in iron or steel, with a heavy engine inside.

But also, I see that this sail has a fixed position and it can't be oriented (only a little by fixing the "flying" cable) to one side or the other, so not very useful to navigate...

Edit : I couldn't find any picture of a Clyde puffer with a sail. It was then probably used only in extreme emergency situations...

[gap]

Originally Posted by Mister_M

1) Ah ok. So there are two "shadowing" parameters involved : ambiant scene light + AO map.

Yes, more or less.

1 - The AO map contains pre-rendered shadows; think of it as the soft shadows cast by diffuse light.

2 - Surface normals are another important factor which determines the luminosity of a surface; the more parallel a normal is to the direction of incident light, the lighter will be the relative surface.

3 - Normals are also affected by object smoothing; this is the hardness of the edges connecting the triangles that compose a curved surface. By default, edges are considered "soft". That means that the normal of each triangle is averaged with the normals of neighbouring triangles, giving the surface a smooth look with subtle changes of luminosity. Nonetheless, edges can be set to "hard", which means that there will be an abrupt change of luminosity between a triangle and the next ones, and that the edges between adjoining triangles will be well noticeable if their normals point to radically different directions.

4 - Finally we have dynamic shadows: the sharp shadows cast on top of an object when another object is blocking light rays for it.

Off the four factors I summarized above, the effect of the last three is subject to quantity and direction of a directional light source (such as the sun), whereas the the first one is static and it is supposed to simulate ambient (i.e. diffuse) light. In my last previews, you can see the effect of the first three of them but, as I wrote yesterday, the illumination I set in Wings3D was actually a diffuse light coming from one side (like the sun light at dusk). In game, a variety of different illuminations will apply depending on time season, time of the day and weather.

Originally Posted by Mister_M

2) Can't you have any preview directly in Autodesk Softimage Mod Tool 7.5 ?

Sure you can, but I don't think the result would much better than in Wings3D. There are specialized 3D rendering programs which simulate materials and realistic light effects, but I never messed with them. A good render might takes hours of of study and of PC calculations. A bit too long for the purposes of a simple previes. I prefer using that time for something else and waiting to see the final result of my work in game

Originally Posted by Mister_M

3) Yes sure. But I was not talking about these objects, but mainly about the large vertical surfaces of the cabin which are all grey instead of white like the hull. And about the lifeboat which is far too much dark in my opinion. So if the texture applied to those meshes is white for example, they will appear grey even if directly exposed to the sun light...

That's the effect of the AO map. Obviously you are expecting all vertical surfaces to be equally illuminated because you have in mind a light source placed about on top of the boat. Nonetheless you should remember that the AO map simulates the occlusion of ambient light: i.e. light coming from all the directions. Vertical surfaces on deck look darker than the hull because light rays coming from the bottom are partially blocked by the hull itself before they can illuminate those surfaces. Once in game, this effect will be balanced by the top sunlight, and boat's shading will look perfectly natural

Originally Posted by Mister_M

4) So the life buoy should not be breakable as there is a dedicated shadow for it on the cabin.

The shadow was much darker because the lifebuoy is very close to the whelhouse's side. I reduced this effect exactly for the reason that you are mentioning. In game, the AO map is blended to the diffuse texture and the undue shadow will be lesser obvious. It will look like the halo left by a frame on a wall, when you remove it, or so I hope. In any case I have that shadow on a separate layer in a psd file. If the final effect won't be satisfactory, I am always in time to make that shdow even more subtle, or to completely remove it.

Originally Posted by Mister_M

5) Other than that, one quick question : what is the sail used for, as there is already a propeller ? I doubt that it's used for propulsion purpose. Maybe for lateral maneuvers ?

Talking in general, a mixed wind/engine propulsion can be used to spare fuel and increase top speed with favourable winds. As I have read, aboard puffers the jib sail was used on occasions. In game, the sail will be set as an optional equipment, so it will be rarely seen.
The plan that this model is based on also features a mainsail, but that was used very rarely (probably in case of emergencies as noted by kapuhy) and I decided not to include it in my model.

[Mister_M]

Thank you for your very detailed, patient and clear explanations. I'm impressed, and happy to learn so many things !

I still have a few comments :

Originally Posted by gap

Obviously you are expecting all vertical surfaces to be equally illuminated because you have in mind a light source placed about on top of the boat. Nonetheless you should remember that the AO map simulates the occlusion of ambient light: i.e. light coming from all the directions.

Yes, IMO no light should come from the bottom to create the AO map of a ship. I think that this is not realistic, because in reality you don't have any sun light coming from the bottom, but only very little light reflection by the sea. So, the solution (to avoid "undue" shadow on the cabin) would be to create the AO map on the cabin without the ship's deck occluding the light.

Originally Posted by gap

Once in game, this effect will be balanced by the top sunlight, and boat's shading will look perfectly natural

No, because in game the hull will receive as much sun light as the cabin, so the difference of illumination will be noticeable between hull and cabin (more "AO shadows" on cabin).

Originally Posted by gap

Talking in general, a mixed wind/engine propulsion can be used to spare fuel and increase top speed with favourable winds. As I have read, aboard puffers the jib sail was used on occasions. In game, the sail will be set as an optional equipment, so it will be rarely seen. The plan that this model is based on also features a mainsail, but that was used very rarely (probably in case of emergencies as noted by kapuhy) and I decided not to include it in my model.

Ok, I was suspecting something like that. I think it's a good idea to set the sail as an optional element.