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Old 02-25-23, 10:31 AM   #1
Wolfstriked
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Default Kaelun,the recognition manual is super dark RANT

The recognition manual is super dark to point of being like a comedy skit I watched recently.

Man1:I am better than you cause "I" have gone solar!!
Man2: I guess
Man1:I rarely use local city electricity and all my light bulbs are fluorescent and max 35 watts!
Man2:Oh yeah?! Well...I can't see you....you are dim....YOUR DIM!!


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10154277590353215

This darkness is cause of trying to simulate eye adaptation but somewhere someone went overboard. heck even when its done just slightly I have a hard time reading the info.

But there is other issues.So many ships in Sh3 since my last foray 9yrs ago now its a huge task to find what the ship is to point of not being realistic...IMO.I use NYGM Enhanced and can tell you its downright impossible at times.I use the weapons operator to identify ship to find the type but the name doesn't pop up anywhere.So now I must scroll thru(290 ships folders)numerous kinda nauseating amounts of pics searching for an elusive check mark that I can hardly see.

In real life no doubt when you were tasked to go patrol waters around the Polish port you had info on what countries were trading with the Polish and what to look out for.Not a merchant book filled with numerous unreadable pics of ships.

So now,how to fix something that with more and more ships being added will only get worse and worse??

Please be gentle....btw





For anyone interested I brightened up the NYGM Enhanced manual here


https://www.mediafire.com/file/lwdak...Manual.7z/file

Last edited by Wolfstriked; 03-02-23 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 02-26-23, 05:44 PM   #2
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Default Reality is really difficult

i get your point, but NYGM is supposed to be difficult. I don't see how a recognition manual could be used efficiently at night on a surfaced u-boat (although maybe someone will "enlighten" me). Try GWX or LSH or a different GUI for an easier life.

I'm discovering that in real life establishing an accurate range and speed was very difficult and attack procedures were designed to get round that. Things could be estimated "by eye" in real life much easier than in game, but nowhere near as accurately as the game watch officer can do it.
In particular getting speed, range and angle on the bow from the map distance travelled in 3 minutes 15 seconds is just not realistic.

Take a look at Tonci87's recent playthrough to see how it was really done.
The exact ship draughts in the manual (laden or unladen?) and the need to set magnetic torpedo running depths so accurately cannot be right either.



As a work-around it might be better for you to have a printout of the recognition manual so you can whizz through it without all the click click. I'm sure there's a copy on this forum somewhere.
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Old 02-26-23, 07:11 PM   #3
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A recognition manual you cant use because its too dark does not simulate anything but is just broken.I am not the only person who stated the super dark recognition manual when using ARB GUI in NYGM Enhanced.Fifi said its not gonna change and I took that as that is up to the maker of ARB GUI as Fifi has his hands full.


And Tonci87 uses onealex which has a brighter hence easier to read recognition manual.And the reason why I use the WO to calculate a solution is cause I cant read the recognition manual.I can take a speed measurement but then look at manual that WO has identified but cant read the ships length so its useless for me.


And please,I hope to not come across as a person who doesn't appreciate what modders make for us for free.
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Old 02-26-23, 07:16 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooston View Post
I don't see how a recognition manual could be used efficiently at night on a surfaced u-boat (although maybe someone will "enlighten" me).

Most likely someone inside sub near a light source would take cues from person on scope and search in the manual with a light source.Also,I would assume that they had some type of info as to who was trading with who and what merchants ships certain countries were using.
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Old 02-26-23, 07:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooston View Post
The exact ship draughts in the manual (laden or unladen?) and the need to set magnetic torpedo running depths so accurately cannot be right either.

I agree about laden and unladen. Just read yesterday that what was great about magnetic pistol was it had magnetic detonator but also a pistol detonator.If it hit the side of ship it would still detonate.I think they just took draft of a laden ship as the default and if ship was unladen oh well it misses....but no big deal as it wasnt carrying anything anyway.
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Old 02-27-23, 01:00 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooston View Post
Things could be estimated "by eye" in real life much easier than in game
That’s exactly how I’m playing NYGM (or any other megamod) with great success

Never use the recon book, never calculate or draw anything on Nav map (except to intercept convoys)… all by eye estimation !
Magnetic torp always set to 6 meters for any ships, contact torp always set to 5 meters (or little higher for small ships)
Target speed set by visual estimation (or with help of sonar man announcing) as well as AOB… only few experience required
What to say about target distance? I never calculate it
Only visual estimation again … more than 90% hit success…
Don’t loose time to scroll the recon book, or draw things on map for heavy calculations useless … only visual estimation and experience (as it was in real!) is the key

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Old 02-27-23, 03:24 AM   #7
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Default Real recognition manual

There's a real US navy recognition manual on the web here: https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/id/oni2...hips/pg135.htm There are a LOT of pages! The big differences between claims and actual tonnages show that U-boat captains were not very good at identifying merchants. My understanding from this forum is that the stadimeter was deleted from U boats quite early in the war, presumably because it was not all that useful in practice.

i have seen plots used in real life to aid an attack, most famously the sinking of U-864 by HMS Venturer; it's just the accuracy of the ranges (and even bearings) from the game watch officer are way too good, even with the HSie mod. It would be nice to have some properly rubbish ranges dependent on the watch officer's ability.



i suppose making the manual too dark to read at night is going a bit far, the realism fanatics (like me) can always choose to not look at it. It's a bit like choosing whether to ask the watch officer for range and bearing or to identify a target, or locking on to targets you cannot actually see... i guess it's a bug.

Last edited by Hooston; 02-27-23 at 05:11 AM.
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Old 02-27-23, 11:54 AM   #8
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The link you posted is dead.Can you fix that?Not that I would use it just wanna see what an official recognition manual looks like.
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Old 02-27-23, 05:21 PM   #9
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Hmmm.. the link works for me...


Try this https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/id/oni2...merchant-ships



It's very like the SH3 game manual, but has a more logical order and is WAAAY bigger! It has both loaded and light draft - there's a big difference.



Obviously it's US vs Japan, I've not seen a Kriegsmarine one.
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Old 02-27-23, 07:04 PM   #10
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I guess SH3 devs just never bothered with unloaded draft as the ships we sink are supposed to be loaded. Thanks for the link,its nice to see an actual manual.


As to my original post I am going "the way of Fifi"! NYGM Enhanced with map contacts on is superb.My foray into all boxes checked and set sail did not end well even though I managed a ship or two.This just feels more real to me,especially the dotted lines for sonar contacts.


On the surface I think it could be slightly improved by having ship spotted leave a box where ship was seen but it doesnt track the ship and the box fades after awhile.To get a new location for the ship you must get on a scope,lock target and press identify to get a new box so you can mark on map.Would add a bit of involvement for player as he must get on scope and then mark and find ships course over time.Maybe maybe not?
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Old 02-28-23, 03:34 AM   #11
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A Uboat underwater had a very limited ability to sense the outside world. SH3 is good because it gives so little information to the player, which also hides a lot of problems in AI behaviour and simulation. I would go further by trying to better simulate the errors in the sensors - especially in range. I have seen TV programmes about training real submarine commanders and the key skill was holding a mental picture of the tactical situation from limited inputs. I've also watched SH5 and Uboat playthroughs, where cleaning up the presentation of information is unrealistic and "gamey", and in turn asks too much of the simulation and AI.

Despite a lot of good work by modders SH3 struggles in surfaced attacks, simply because there is so much information available and it is so hard to draw a night time view realistically. This is a shame because it is how the uboats usually attacked until mid 1943. I'm not sure how to put this right, "God's eye view" is too powerful (except for US subs with PPI radar!) but on the other hand I think someone in the control room would be running a plot and it's not realistic to expect the player to do it all. A button "Locked target info" to give a lousy ID, bearing and range on a locked target - e.g. "destroyer, 325 degrees, 5000 metres" and put an X on the map might be a way.
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Old 02-28-23, 07:47 AM   #12
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Default Attack night

This NYGM is very good as well as Onealex...
I think that if you played in "Hardcore" that is to say without any help..!! without the periscope lock... without target update map... without the help of the fire officer...etc...full realism option...
I don't agree with you Fifi's work has greatly improved things especially with the weather sometimes torpedoing is not possible in bad weather you will have to follow the target for hours and wait for better weather conditions to attack...
You talk about night attack for me it's quite possible I don't see where the problem is.. you compare the SH4 SH5 they have nothing to do with each other...
is different in many things which is bad for modders
Do you want night attack play at TMO de BH you will be served at the dificulter level..
I look forward to GWX (Grey Wolves eXpansion Mod) from the Kpt team. Lehmann who in my opinion will send heavy ..
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Old 02-28-23, 11:16 AM   #13
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In NYGM the sonar doesnt give range anymore so that is great.But just popping up periscope and then back to nav map and target new location is marked and easily tracked allowing a bit too accurate ships course from far away.What if you leave the sonar dotted line but remove only the surface ship icons?


When submerged and pressing identify the SO speaks but the WO cant as he is now inside the sub.But submerged with scope up and the target icon still gets marked on map as if the WO is inputting this info still.



Removing the surface map icons and to plot course on surface you ask WO for nearest visual contact,he gives bearing and range and you mark on map with info given.Wait a bit and ask again and mark etc.Yes WO is still too accurate but instead of just marking the target box for location you must use the tools and take his bearing and range and then mark.Its a bit more involved.



Then when submerged the WO can no longer give his super accurate range as he is inside of sub and with surface ship icons removed you are now on your own in regards to range.....which some say doesn't matter
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Old 02-28-23, 01:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfstriked View Post
In NYGM the sonar doesnt give range anymore so that is great.But just popping up periscope and then back to nav map and target new location is marked and easily tracked allowing a bit too accurate ships course from far away.What if you leave the sonar dotted line but remove only the surface ship icons?


When submerged and pressing identify the SO speaks but the WO cant as he is now inside the sub.But submerged with scope up and the target icon still gets marked on map as if the WO is inputting this info still.



Removing the surface map icons and to plot course on surface you ask WO for nearest visual contact,he gives bearing and range and you mark on map with info given.Wait a bit and ask again and mark etc.Yes WO is still too accurate but instead of just marking the target box for location you must use the tools and take his bearing and range and then mark.Its a bit more involved.



Then when submerged the WO can no longer give his super accurate range as he is inside of sub and with surface ship icons removed you are now on your own in regards to range.....which some say doesn't matter
You have never activated "full realism" which is why you make these remarks which are not all true, I would add that Uboats do not have sonar on the surface...
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Old 02-28-23, 01:30 PM   #15
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Best to play NYGM is to play 100% realism (except external cam for screen shot)
No icons just use your own sensors.
The WO range announcement is not 100% accurate! There is a difference sometimes few hundred meters…that’s good like that for me…

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