RL Tabletop Subsim Gaming - Page 2

Aktungbby · 02-08-22, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

looks like some of the stuff we did with Richthofen's War.

Really enjoyed playing that game. Unfortunately, at the time it was hard to find other WWI air war geeks to play with.

Right up there with my old Dogfight game

Skybird · 02-08-22, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

It sadden me that we live so far from each other. If we did we could have arranged a monthly meeting, Saturday and play some type of Board game.

Could be real fun playing with friends and eat some good food.

We start the evening with some delicious food then we fight each other in a chosen board game.

Just a crazy idea

Markus

You could do a compromise. Find so9mebody who shares a strategy game, usually that will be a hexfield cosim, where there is play-by-email possible. Molon Labe seems to do that right now in the Sub/Naval & General Games forum. Some such games have that option inbuild.

Like correspondence chess.

Platapus · 02-08-22, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Right up there with my old Dogfight game

Wow, I had never heard of that game. Nice!

Skybird · 02-09-22, 09:40 AM

Got the download link today while the CD is in transit now.

Installation was flawless, but old-fashioned, of course.

The game is not basing on nFlight Leader, but some simiiair game. This PC game uses a square grid, while Flight Leader used hex fields. However, game mechanics are close enough to strongly remind of FL. And the AI is quite competent. I just did, on the lowest of three levels, a little turmoil, 4 Mig-17 with cannons (me) against 2 Corsairs with missiles (AI), and the AI did what I would expect: the Corsairs tried to manouver so to avoid getting into the engagement zones of the Mig's cannons, while playing out their speed and longer weapon reach, the also used the vertical, and apparently tried formation tactics, not sure on that, needs some engagements with more planes involved to judge that)

The match is not yet decided, I furballed around so far and got one salvo off that missed, but also avoided to get a missile lock glued onto of my planes. Will continue later.

The interface is like you would expect from a windows game of 1994, with all pros and cons.

Nice: the author and company owner did not promsie too much, the game gets flawlessly installed (enforced installation to c:/), and then does some I think DOS-box related magic all by itself, you have not to hassle around with getting it to run, you double-click the desktopo icon, and you are done. Despite the low resolution of those times, the game also automatically scales to your screen's height so that you do not have to play in a tiny micro-windows where you hardly can read anything, you have a 4:3 ratio however, so black bars left and right.

If you are familiar with cosim playing, you easily adapt to the interface and the way the game plays. I am VERY happy to have found this, it scores big on my board, and really feels like a good solid old fashioned tabletop cosim, and the AI does well, apparently.

The game has an extensive database, and a mission editor.

The seller also added - for free - "Over the Reich". Still need to learn about it, I dont know it.

It seems that the game in general is held in high esteem: this review is from 2017- 23 years after release! !

https://web.archive.org/web/20200315...l-this-please/

Recommended.

Edit:
further comments and a huge database with scenarios.
https://sites.google.com/site/hagler...commander2site

2nd edit:
Over the Reich seems to be a wortyh addition, too. Its based on severla of Avalon Hill'S boardgames, and was part fo a series and direct successor to FL2. Reviews point out its great AI.

The board game: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8316/over-reich

The PC game:

I would recommend to carefully check the store I linked to with Flight Leader 2, they have quite some of those old-fashioned hex cosims on offe,r and if they all work so niecely off the shelf, its time well-spend to check out what they have to offer.

Aktungbby · 02-09-22, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aktungbby

Right up there with my old Dogfight game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

Wow, I had never heard of that game. Nice!

No sooner do we have this blogversation than Roger Corman's hokey Richthofen and Brown pops up on the telly! Don Stroud (Roy Brown)actually learned to land and takeoff to improve the film footage realism. He was slightly injured in a bird strike through the propeller arc which caused a crash.

Skybird · 02-09-22, 04:51 PM

Hmpf...! Lost two Migs, a third one damaged, got some salvos off at those two corsairs, but did not score. My two suviving Migs escaped - but just so...

To be honest, with these protagonists one would expect outcomes like this, wouldn'T one. Its just that i do not like to lose.

Then tried the same with four Corsairs (me) against 4 Phantom II's

. Heck, I rarely got my lower back served to me on a silver plate by any AI like this! They dogfought life, soul and who knows what else out of me. Whereever I tried to evade to, some Phantom was already waiting for me: low, high, it did not matter, and always aggressively seeking the initiative.

I'm impressed. Great game, i already love it.

em2nought · 02-10-22, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

looks like some of the stuff we did with Richthofen's War.

Really enjoyed playing that game. Unfortunately, at the time it was hard to find other WWI air war geeks to play with.

I had a blue bedsheet for Jutland

Skybird · 02-10-22, 04:28 PM

This is probably the most influential cosim in my life. I played this more than any other.

Platapus · 02-10-22, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em2nought

I had a blue bedsheet for Jutland

Adapt Improvise Overcome.

Skybird · 02-10-22, 04:43 PM

This is a HUGE game, and quite complex. Doing it solo is almost impossible,. at leats unreaiosnable. I would not recommend this to newcomers in the cosim genre.

Skybird · 02-10-22, 04:59 PM

This is probably the most well-thought-out cosim design I have ever stumbled over with best rules of its kind rules in certain spoecific design areas of the game mechanics, even allowiung sort of hidden and undetected movement but commaing that the game is played by indeed two human players, not solo. The ammount ofdrtials and realsim imo set a precendece and is well balanced against management handling by the player. I am glad however that later this matter was covered by Steel beats Pro and the Combat Missionb series, but for a table top series I would not be surprised if people knowing the market better than me would tell me you could not find a better game on the matter of mechanized ground warfare.

I did not find a good video that did real judgement to the game and how it looks like with units in action on the maps. But believe me, its a very very good design. I wish I had playing partners back in those days.

Skybird · 02-10-22, 05:03 PM

A very pleasant design of newbie-friendly, moderate complexity, and a counter design that I always liked due to its high-tech-looks. I played htis comfortably in solo several times, also 6th Fleet. I have very good memories of this and full-heartly can recommend it.

Skybird · 02-10-22, 05:12 PM

This is a very nice - because: explanatory - video of the Ambush! game, which is a dedidcated solo player game, WWII era. I found it worked very good, and played quite some of the scenarios in it. I wanted to get some of the later modules, but I was just out of school, money was thin, these kind of games were hilariously difficult to get in Germany and costed a fortune, and then I got off to university, so it never happened. Today, we do this kind of gameplay better in PC simulators, but as a solo tabletop, its a very solid game with real tactical surprises. If you look for something to do solo, you have this one on your check-it-out-list.

As a reminder, another dedicated solo game that had a really well-working "AI", is Tokyo Express. You can find my review from many, many years ago in the reviw section of Subsim. This game and Ambush! really are recommended for when the Blackout strikes your city.

Skybird · 02-11-22, 06:20 PM

Sorry for having "derailed" this thread a bit, since it was meant to be about real tabletop games, and I mentioned computer cosims only because OT starter said something like he was curious for Flight Leader, and there I got started...

As I said, i ended up with getting Flight Commander 2, and I again must reiterate how damn good that game is. I have sunk already a lot of hours into it, and in Advanced Game Mode. It is absolutely immersive, the graphics can easily fool you. The interface for moments put you into the cockpit, since you enter your moves for every turn via stylized throttle and joystick, as if it were a flight simulator. Much nicier than just rightclicking onto a unit, and then setting values in some pop-up menu. The Advanced Game rules again remind a lot of those in Flight Leaders, here you find consideraton of vertical speed gain in climbs and dives, phased game turns where plane and missile movement is resolved square by square,G-Loc, Immelmanns and Split-S, barrel rolls, visual and radar lockons before you can fire, effects of one and two seater cockpit workload and the differenc ein radar reaction time, battefield radar operators, rear and full aspect missiles, probabilities of different attack angles, terrain altitude, time of day, pilot quality rated for air combat, ground combat, aggressiveness/defensiveness, toughness; fuel management and considerations of fuel levels when game begins depending on the flight distance you already covered (distance to your home base), and so forth. The tactical depth is immense, yet after you wrapped your mind around the interface and heard that clicking sound inside your head, you enter your commands and moves quickly and comfortably, and the gameplay becomes unexpectedly fluid for a cosim. And it is then when time starts fleeting, and not just the Migs but also the hours fly by!

A very, very good game, I am totally happy that I found it. Exactly what I was looking for since - well, practically since it came out in the early nineties. I just did not know that it existed.

I started a cold war campaign, and had a first huge airbattle. My six Eagles with Aim-9Ms and Aim-7s versus three attack groups with almost 2 dozen Mig-23, 27s, Su-24, a few Mig-21s. I had not expected that many attackers, else I would have send up more interceptors. Squadron management and ressource management is a game element here, both over the campaign and within the single active mission, you must manage both with the length of the conflict on mind. The air battle was absolutely furious and crazy, including both short and long range missile combat, and cannons. I lost two Eagles in the end, but saved both pilots, but shot down 17 attackers and damaging 2 or 3 more. The Sovjets however mauled my fuel base ont he ground, and did seriosu damage to gorudn units and some cirticla buildings. The troops on the gorudn however greeted them with some shoulderpad SAMs as well, scoring two downings. You can expect my surprise when then all of a sudden, with my missiles mostly gone, another attack wave came in, which always was on map, but stayed outside visual range - different to a boardgame cosim, you can switch on and off radars and jammers in this PC game, and can avoid detection maybe, but then also being blind for the things hidden by the fog of war. Also, terrain cluttering your radar if you are not below your target and lightening it up against the empty sky, is a factor. You see, there is plenty of details included that bring more realism into it all, but all accessible via a quite elegant interface (for the year 1994). That it is no hex fields, but square fields map, is no issue at all, I found. And the AI, well there are three levels, and the medium one already is a challenge, but the highest level is Maverick and Iceman having a baby and calling it Arnie.

This will be played a very, very lot. It ticks all my boxes. This thread gave me a very pleasant surprise and present. Thanks, Lesrae!

Skybird · 02-11-22, 08:03 PM

Gameplay 6th Fleet.

02-09-22, 09:40 AM	#19
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,471 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Got the download link today while the CD is in transit now. Installation was flawless, but old-fashioned, of course. The game is not basing on nFlight Leader, but some simiiair game. This PC game uses a square grid, while Flight Leader used hex fields. However, game mechanics are close enough to strongly remind of FL. And the AI is quite competent. I just did, on the lowest of three levels, a little turmoil, 4 Mig-17 with cannons (me) against 2 Corsairs with missiles (AI), and the AI did what I would expect: the Corsairs tried to manouver so to avoid getting into the engagement zones of the Mig's cannons, while playing out their speed and longer weapon reach, the also used the vertical, and apparently tried formation tactics, not sure on that, needs some engagements with more planes involved to judge that) The match is not yet decided, I furballed around so far and got one salvo off that missed, but also avoided to get a missile lock glued onto of my planes. Will continue later. The interface is like you would expect from a windows game of 1994, with all pros and cons. Nice: the author and company owner did not promsie too much, the game gets flawlessly installed (enforced installation to c:/), and then does some I think DOS-box related magic *all by itself, you have not to hassle around with getting it to run, you double-click the desktopo icon, and you are done. Despite the low resolution of those times, the game also automatically scales to your screen's height so that you do not have to play in a tiny micro-windows where you hardly can read anything, you have a 4:3 ratio however, so black bars left and right. If you are familiar with cosim playing, you easily adapt to the interface and the way the game plays. I am VERY happy to have found this, it scores big on my board, and really feels like a good solid old fashioned tabletop cosim, and the AI does well, apparently. The game has an extensive database, and a mission editor. The seller also added - for free - "Over the Reich". Still need to learn about it, I dont know it. It seems that the game in general is held in high esteem: this review is from 2017-* 23 years after release! ! https://web.archive.org/web/20200315...l-this-please/ Recommended. Edit: further comments and a huge database with scenarios. https://sites.google.com/site/hagler...commander2site 2nd edit: Over the Reich seems to be a wortyh addition, too. Its based on severla of Avalon Hill'S boardgames, and was part fo a series and direct successor to FL2. Reviews point out its great AI. The board game: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/8316/over-reich The PC game: I would recommend to carefully check the store I linked to with Flight Leader 2, they have quite some of those old-fashioned hex cosims on offe,r and if they all work so niecely off the shelf, its time well-spend to check out what they have to offer. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 02-09-22 at 10:14 AM.

02-09-22, 04:51 PM	#21
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,471 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Hmpf...! Lost two Migs, a third one damaged, got some salvos off at those two corsairs, but did not score. My two suviving Migs escaped - but just so... To be honest, with these protagonists one would expect outcomes like this, wouldn'T one. Its just that i do not like to lose. Then tried the same with four Corsairs (me) against 4 Phantom II's . Heck, I rarely got my lower back served to me on a silver plate by any AI like this! They dogfought life, soul and who knows what else out of me. Whereever I tried to evade to, some Phantom was already waiting for me: low, high, it did not matter, and always aggressively seeking the initiative. I'm impressed. Great game, i already love it. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-10-22, 04:28 PM	#23
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,471 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	This is probably the most influential cosim in my life. I played this more than any other. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-10-22, 04:43 PM	#25
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,471 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	This is a HUGE game, and quite complex. Doing it solo is almost impossible,. at leats unreaiosnable. I would not recommend this to newcomers in the cosim genre. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-10-22, 04:59 PM	#26
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,471 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	This is probably the most well-thought-out cosim design I have ever stumbled over with best rules of its kind rules in certain spoecific design areas of the game mechanics, even allowiung sort of hidden and undetected movement but commaing that the game is played by indeed two human players, not solo. The ammount ofdrtials and realsim imo set a precendece and is well balanced against management handling by the player. I am glad however that later this matter was covered by Steel beats Pro and the Combat Missionb series, but for a table top series I would not be surprised if people knowing the market better than me would tell me you could not find a better game on the matter of mechanized ground warfare. I did not find a good video that did real judgement to the game and how it looks like with units in action on the maps. But believe me, its a very very good design. I wish I had playing partners back in those days. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-10-22, 05:03 PM	#27
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,471 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	A very pleasant design of newbie-friendly, moderate complexity, and a counter design that I always liked due to its high-tech-looks. I played htis comfortably in solo several times, also 6th Fleet. I have very good memories of this and full-heartly can recommend it. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-10-22, 05:12 PM	#28
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,471 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	This is a very nice - because: explanatory - video of the Ambush! game, which is a dedidcated solo player game, WWII era. I found it worked very good, and played quite some of the scenarios in it. I wanted to get some of the later modules, but I was just out of school, money was thin, these kind of games were hilariously difficult to get in Germany and costed a fortune, and then I got off to university, so it never happened. Today, we do this kind of gameplay better in PC simulators, but as a solo tabletop, its a very solid game with real tactical surprises. If you look for something to do solo, you have this one on your check-it-out-list. As a reminder, another dedicated solo game that had a really well-working "AI", is Tokyo Express. You can find my review from many, many years ago in the reviw section of Subsim. This game and Ambush! really are recommended for when the Blackout strikes your city. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-11-22, 06:20 PM	#29
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,471 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Sorry for having "derailed" this thread a bit, since it was meant to be about real tabletop games, and I mentioned computer cosims only because OT starter said something like he was curious for Flight Leader, and there I got started... As I said, i ended up with getting Flight Commander 2, and I again must reiterate how damn good that game is. I have sunk already a lot of hours into it, and in Advanced Game Mode. It is absolutely immersive, the graphics can easily fool you. The interface for moments put you into the cockpit, since you enter your moves for every turn via stylized throttle and joystick, as if it were a flight simulator. Much nicier than just rightclicking onto a unit, and then setting values in some pop-up menu. The Advanced Game rules again remind a lot of those in Flight Leaders, here you find consideraton of vertical speed gain in climbs and dives, phased game turns where plane and missile movement is resolved square by square,G-Loc, Immelmanns and Split-S, barrel rolls, visual and radar lockons before you can fire, effects of one and two seater cockpit workload and the differenc ein radar reaction time, battefield radar operators, rear and full aspect missiles, probabilities of different attack angles, terrain altitude, time of day, pilot quality rated for air combat, ground combat, aggressiveness/defensiveness, toughness; fuel management and considerations of fuel levels when game begins depending on the flight distance you already covered (distance to your home base), and so forth. The tactical depth is immense, yet after you wrapped your mind around the interface and heard that clicking sound inside your head, you enter your commands and moves quickly and comfortably, and the gameplay becomes unexpectedly fluid for a cosim. And it is then when time starts fleeting, and not just the Migs but also the hours fly by! A very, very good game, I am totally happy that I found it. Exactly what I was looking for since - well, practically since it came out in the early nineties. I just did not know that it existed. I started a cold war campaign, and had a first huge airbattle. My six Eagles with Aim-9Ms and Aim-7s versus three attack groups with almost 2 dozen Mig-23, 27s, Su-24, a few Mig-21s. I had not expected that many attackers, else I would have send up more interceptors. Squadron management and ressource management is a game element here, both over the campaign and within the single active mission, you must manage both with the length of the conflict on mind. The air battle was absolutely furious and crazy, including both short and long range missile combat, and cannons. I lost two Eagles in the end, but saved both pilots, but shot down 17 attackers and damaging 2 or 3 more. The Sovjets however mauled my fuel base ont he ground, and did seriosu damage to gorudn units and some cirticla buildings. The troops on the gorudn however greeted them with some shoulderpad SAMs as well, scoring two downings. You can expect my surprise when then all of a sudden, with my missiles mostly gone, another attack wave came in, which always was on map, but stayed outside visual range - different to a boardgame cosim, you can switch on and off radars and jammers in this PC game, and can avoid detection maybe, but then also being blind for the things hidden by the fog of war. Also, terrain cluttering your radar if you are not below your target and lightening it up against the empty sky, is a factor. You see, there is plenty of details included that bring more realism into it all, but all accessible via a quite elegant interface (for the year 1994). That it is no hex fields, but square fields map, is no issue at all, I found. And the AI, well there are three levels, and the medium one already is a challenge, but the highest level is Maverick and Iceman having a baby and calling it Arnie. This will be played a very, very lot. It ticks all my boxes. This thread gave me a very pleasant surprise and present. Thanks, Lesrae! __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 02-11-22 at 06:30 PM.

02-11-22, 08:03 PM	#30
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,471 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Gameplay 6th Fleet. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.