Things you like about CW, Things you don't like.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by dergrunty

That helo is now calmly searching the entrance of Oslo harbor.
Sorry but situations like this just ruin the immersion. It's one thing to not have any forces ready to attack the convoy before it reaches it's target (Planes, AShMs anyone...). It's a far bigger problem when there is not a single CAP plane present to shoot down a soviet helo, flying deep in NATO territory.

If they can't launch to attack the ships, why do you think they can launch to kill that helo. The fact the convoy is sailing so openly implies that the Soviets already have air superiority though they hadn't occupied Norway yet so the icons are still blue.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by PL_Harpoon

Something to change the tone a little bit...

While I was testing my mod, I came across a hidden feature of sorts.

So, I was hunting down an amphibious strike force that was escorted by 3 warships, one of them being Sovremenny. So, I fired a single torpedo at him which did not sink him. But he was damaged and stopped moving so I left him there and turned my attention to transport ships and other escort.

After a while I came to see how he's going and noticed something interesting - the fire was spreading.

After a few more minutes it overwhelmed the ship, there was an explosion and the poor ship sunk.

What a nice surprise.

Yeah, I stumbled upon this too. I hit a convoy which scattered and I was chasing down surviving vessels and about 1 hour later suddenly a wreck showed up. The ship had finally sunk 2nd to fire or flooding. It was a great touch and KF did some nice finish there.

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

If they can't launch to attack the ships, why do you think they can launch to kill that helo. The fact the convoy is sailing so openly implies that the Soviets already have air superiority though they hadn't occupied Norway yet so the icons are still blue.

If they had air superiority, there wouldn't be dozens of spotter planes flying around.

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

If they can't launch to attack the ships, why do you think they can launch to kill that helo. The fact the convoy is sailing so openly implies that the Soviets already have air superiority though they hadn't occupied Norway yet so the icons are still blue.

Jesus, you are really reaching hard.

I get it, you really like the game, it is fine.
But the excuses that pile up in this thread start to get silly.

"assume"
"assume"
"assume"

Simulations aren't about having the player assume things.

[sqk7744]

I Agree Gents!

Helm and Command mode would be wonderful. Also, Surround Sound so us Sonar geeks can listen directionally all around the room



Cheers!
~SQK

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Simulations aren't about having the player assume things.

Nor is it about having the system explicitly explain everything to the player. Try to infer from the situation around you what is happening.

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Nor is it about having the system explicitly explain everything to the player. Try to infer from the situation around you what is happening.

So, As a player in the role of a SSN captain I cannot expect my crew to vocally inform me about what's going on, like in the real thing, I need to do so myself or rely on stupid tiny text, hard to spot and with no log, especially when the action is on and while I have to drive the friggin' boat myself, literally pushing the crew out of the way?

Really?

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Nor is it about having the system explicitly explain everything to the player. Try to infer from the situation around you what is happening.

No problem: I infer from the ~10 P3 Orions overflying the norwegian sea, day and night, that the soviets do infact not have air supriority.

[LoBlo]

Flame wars about realism in a game. Yay!

The game is what it is. I like the product they produced. Too much "sim" and the game becomes boring as heck. Too much "arcade" and the games too simple to keep interest. Where does the perfect balance lie? Its completely arbitrary.

I like the features KF incorporated. It doesn't need to be a Dangerous Waters reboot. If they whittle away at improvements its become more and more fun with replayability. I'm hoping the mod community really takes off. That's what makes games last IMHO.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

So, As a player in the role of a SSN captain I cannot expect my crew to vocally inform me about what's going on, like in the real thing, I need to do so myself or rely on stupid tiny text, hard to spot and with no log, especially when the action is on and while I have to drive the friggin' boat myself, literally pushing the crew out of the way?

Really?

Let me put it this way, I have one eye blind and the other is barely 20:40, corrected. I can still keep up with that "stupid tiny text". And I'll tell you, I've broached my boat before (multiple times) but I don't blame the game when it happens.

What you are arguing for is formal realism, and I've given you my thoughts on this on Post #53 & #58. They have already tried this approach in the 688I through Dangerous Waters series. I have enjoyed all those games. However, because of that, I am also aware of its weakness - because ultimately, you are not driving a real sub in a real, lethal fight, all that aid plus none of the complications means your Net Cognitive Load is much lower than a real submarine captain, even counting all the training he has and you don't. This is reflected in the frequent use of the Time Compression and 3D view systems - the game isn't stimulating you enough.

Have you considered that part of the point of the manual TMA, sonar and fire control systems (and even the Flood, Equalize and Muzzle Door buttons) in the 688-DW line is to give the otherwise bored player something to do? If it is really about formally simulating the sub commander's experience, those parts will be fully automated. However, to perform at those stations at a level sufficient to beat the AI is not in general difficult (and I am saying this as a person who has no illusions of being a really good player) so you still wind up with a lot of time to spare. Plus, if you need more time, there's always the Almighty Pause button (which has nothing to do with reality, of course).

Cold Waters has another solution to this problem - take away most of the aid you've been getting and make the enemy really lethal. And you know what? It works. As you tacitly admit, now you are task overloaded - your Cognitive Load is now much closer to a real commander in the thick of it. So you have to ask yourself, whether you prefer to be underworked in a subsim that formally reflects reality while actually not, or whether you want to feel like you are working just like a real submarine captain.

Originally Posted by dergrunty

No problem: I infer from the ~10 P3 Orions overflying the norwegian sea, day and night, that the soviets do infact not have air supriority.

You saw *10* P3s? I generally only see one or two at most in the map.

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Flame wars about realism in a game. Yay!

It is what it is. I like the product they produced. Too much "sim" and a game its boring as heck. Too much "arcade" and its too simple to keep interest. Where the perfect balance lies is arbitrary.

I like the features that are incorporated. Doesn't need to be another Dangerous Waters reboot. If they whittle away at improvements it fun with replayability. Hoping the mod community really takes off. That's what makes games last IMHO.

I agree with you.

I stated my opinion about this game, dared to call it unfinished/incomplete and got attacked for this opinion, that's what the discussion is about.
I don't care why people think this is the greatest thing since sandwiches, I really don't. But I do care when people tell me my opinion is wrong because theirs is better.

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

Let me put it this way, I have one eye blind and the other is barely 20:40, corrected. I can still keep up with that "stupid tiny text". And I'll tell you, I've broached my boat before (multiple times) but I don't blame the game when it happens.

Why are you talking about broaching?!
I don't care about your eyesight. Be blind for all I care - I dislike the text, how it is handled, that there is no log, and that this is all the "captain" has to rely on, when he should have a crew reporting to him in US navy lingo as much as possible, in a simulation about US submarines where you are the captain!

I will not debate my opinion or taste with you.
I now just ask you to finally accept it.
Will you?

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

What you are arguing for is formal realism, and I've given you my thoughts on this on Post #53 & #58.

Call it what you want, for me it's bread and butter in a simulation.
Again, you will have to live with the fact that I do not share your point of view, not one bit.
Also, I never asked for your opinion, nor your evaluation of mine.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Why are you talking about broaching?!

You said "while I have to drive the friggin' boat myself" which suggests part of your frustration is with the manual control. Since I don't think you are complaining about the manual control even though it is a breeze for you, I estimate your frustration is because it is actually challenging.

I dislike the text, how it is handled, that there is no log, and that this is all the "captain" has to rely on, when he should have a crew reporting to him in US navy lingo as much as possible, in a simulation about US submarines where you are the captain!

I can certainly accept it is not your cup of tea. However, there is a difference between saying it is not your cup of tea and that it is "unfinished", based on "missing" features that weren't even part of the original design or concept, and are probably antithetical to it. Or calling AI enemies "dumb" even though they are actually threatening to you (which is their most important game function). Or not realizing both CW and DW/SC/688 rely on manual work to drive up the player's workload, only that CW succeeds in making the player work harder.

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

You saw *10* P3s? I generally only see one or two at most in the map.

Really? Thats your answer? Semantics? It doesn't matter how many. As soon as the soviets have AS there would not be a single, vulnerable, multi-engine turboprop flying around.
It just makes no sense, that there are no other NATO assets around, when I'm 2 miles off the coast of norway at the beginning of the campaign. That was my original critque, and so far, I haven't seen a reasonable explanation for this.
This is just one point thats lackluster in the game, there are many more.

e.g.:

• control of the sub
• crew voices
• enemy sub and surface ai
• lack of mission variety (in 9/10 cases: go there, sink that)

The devs released their game in this lackluster state, so people rightfully complain. It definitly doesn't help that you try to sweep any piece of criticism under the rug.

[VolvicCH]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Also, I never asked for your opinion, nor your evaluation of mine.

You know how forums work, right?