[REL] Trigger Maru Overhauled Update BH

[Captain Wreckless]

Doing the pre PH missions. Last mission was patrol off Guam. War started and all I got was driven under by ASW aircraft. Decided to head for Saipan and see what's up. Found an AWS trawler but couldn't get a good setup on him, so I let it pass. Closed on the harbor and found a Merchy doing 1 knot. I closed to 1000 yards and fired 2 fish. Watched both go under. Fired 2 more at 800 yards and watched them go under. Fired 2 more and watched them go under as well. Grrr Surfaced and sank it with gun fire. As I was doing this, I got messages that the torpedoes had exploded. I could see in the distance them exploding on the beach.


6 wasted shots.


CW

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

Doing the pre PH missions. Last mission was patrol off Guam. War started and all I got was driven under by ASW aircraft. Decided to head for Saipan and see what's up. Found an AWS trawler but couldn't get a good setup on him, so I let it pass. Closed on the harbor and found a Merchy doing 1 knot. I closed to 1000 yards and fired 2 fish. Watched both go under. Fired 2 more at 800 yards and watched them go under. Fired 2 more and watched them go under as well. Grrr Surfaced and sank it with gun fire. As I was doing this, I got messages that the torpedoes had exploded. I could see in the distance them exploding on the beach.


6 wasted shots.


CW

What was the date? Wondering if found the Guam invasion force or was after.

Yes, torpedoes run deep per history, even those set to minimum depth will not always run shallow enough to actuate the magnetic exploder. Judging by reading patrol reports and other materials, depth control problem was responsible for most of the misses in early war (Dec 41-Fall 1942) so this was implemented into the update. Previously player could set torpedo to minimum depth and nearly always get a hit with magnetic exploder, no longer the case. This helps to keep tonnage at realistic levels for most part and provides the aggravation early war skippers and crews felt.

While 6 out of 6 running deep happens, ion most testing at least 1 out of six would hit. Sometimes none of torpedoes would run deep or very deep, its really a random and chance things that changes as war progresses. Issue is mostly fixed in Fall 1942 with MK 14. Can still run deep but chance lowers quite a bit, will see improvements.

[Captain Wreckless]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

What was the date? Wondering if found the Guam invasion force or was after.

I sank the Merchy 15 Dec. I was still patrolling west of Guam on 13 Dec and never saw an invasion fleet. Only got flash traffic messages about Guam being bombed by aircraft.

I still have a saved game from 7 Dec that I will reload and adjust my patrol zone a bit and see if I contact the invasion fleet.

I thought it was strange that I never saw anything.

The only ship I came across is a patrolling USN DD west of Guam.


CW

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

I sank the Merchy 15 Dec. I was still patrolling west of Guam on 13 Dec and never saw an invasion fleet. Only got flash traffic messages about Guam being bombed by aircraft.

I still have a saved game from 7 Dec that I will reload and adjust my patrol zone a bit and see if I contact the invasion fleet.

I thought it was strange that I never saw anything.

The only ship I came across is a patrolling USN DD west of Guam.


CW

Ok let me know if you contact the force. The invasion force is scripted, comes from Saipan, takes place 8-10 December. I added it, found it once in testing.

[Captain Wreckless]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Ok let me know if you contact the force. The invasion force is scripted, comes from Saipan, takes place 8-10 December. I added it, found it once in testing.

I did find the invasion fleet coming from Saipan. I actually got between the escorts and the Merchies. Surface attack I fired on the 1st cargo ship at 2500 yards (missed), 2000 yards fired on the 1st again and the 2nd in line. Right after I fired on the 2nd ship I was detected and promptly sunk from gun fire.

I'll reload and see if I can do better. It will give me a chance to try shooting a spread into the pack and see what happens.

[Captain Wreckless]

Keep CTD during DC attacks. Sub was not sunk. Hull damage < 5% though had flooding and damaged systems.

Not sure what is going on.


I'm finding the escorts a royal PITA. I realize this is to quasi-simulate real world but when I'm detected 100% of the time @ 4K+ yards, it is disheartening. No matter which boat I use, how deep (up to max depth), or speed (50-75 rpm) I'm at, I end up being sunk at some point. The DC's are always falling to whatever depth I'm at. There is never any shallow drops or to deep drops. So it seems that I will essentially avoid attacking escorted convoys or TFs.


The donated Narwhal mod still works with this mod, is that correct? If so what order should it be installed? I did a test install and noticed that I could not start a patrol any earlier than 8 Dec. Without the mod, I could start in June.

[Captain Wreckless]

Is there a way to bring up the detailed operational orders before or after sailing to reference during play, short of copying them down or printing the .tsr file?

I just got a pre-war mission to conduct simulated attacks against the USS Marblehead in Lingayen Gulf. It said I should include a loadout of 4 Mk 10 torpedoes for the practice attacks.

Did you make these up or are you going by actual pre-war patrol reports?


CW

P.S. Never find the Marblehead. Must of had that new camo from the Philadelphia Experiment.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

I did find the invasion fleet coming from Saipan. I actually got between the escorts and the Merchies. Surface attack I fired on the 1st cargo ship at 2500 yards (missed), 2000 yards fired on the 1st again and the 2nd in line. Right after I fired on the 2nd ship I was detected and promptly sunk from gun fire.

I'll reload and see if I can do better. It will give me a chance to try shooting a spread into the pack and see what happens.

Should not attack on surface in early war s you found out lol. Invasion forces are well escorted by skilled escorts and even the transports are usually skilled. This was done to reflect the best of the best the japanese had in early phase of war before attrition evened things out.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

Keep CTD during DC attacks. Sub was not sunk. Hull damage < 5% though had flooding and damaged systems.

Not sure what is going on.


I'm finding the escorts a royal PITA. I realize this is to quasi-simulate real world but when I'm detected 100% of the time @ 4K+ yards, it is disheartening. No matter which boat I use, how deep (up to max depth), or speed (50-75 rpm) I'm at, I end up being sunk at some point. The DC's are always falling to whatever depth I'm at. There is never any shallow drops or to deep drops. So it seems that I will essentially avoid attacking escorted convoys or TFs.


The donated Narwhal mod still works with this mod, is that correct? If so what order should it be installed? I did a test install and noticed that I could not start a patrol any earlier than 8 Dec. Without the mod, I could start in June.

Not sure about the DC CTD. Any idea which escort(s) was attacking, could be related to specific type of escort.

TMO is a difficulty mod, and my update retains that aspect to keep things interesting.Escorts in general are more competent than stock and most other mods, not impossible though. Actually, TMO update is somewhat easier than original TMO due to the new sub damage model and DC. A lot of surviving has to do with actively staying involved and riding out the depth charge attack. This can be challenging as riding out a prolonged attack in real time is nerve racking and yes time consuming. Speeding up tc even a little can cause a fatal error. For me, its closest thing I've seen to properly simulating a DC attack.

There are many factors to submerged detection...enemy skill level, sea state, depth, thermal layer, RPM, profile to enemy sonar beam, range from target.

One thing wrong with SH 4 is enemy escorts are always pinging, you just usually don't hear the pings until the beam is focused on your sub and AI is alerted. They also seem to be able to use hydrophones when in "normal" mode even when pinging. However, when in Alert mode, they can only use hydrophones or active sonar, not both. While in reality sometimes Japanese would actively ping, they typically listened with hydrophones and pinged when required.

Make sure silent running is active during the approach*. If escort is nearby, keep bow (or stern if stern shot) pointed and depending period of war, at least 2500 yards away. Low profile to the beam, with silent running on and under 100 rpm should keep you undetected in most circumstances.

* A flaw in the sim is unless on silent running or enemy hydrophones are handicapped so much they prove ineffective overall, player is somewhat easy to detect during submerged approach. When on silent running, the hidden 'ghost" silent drive is active and sub does not emit the normal pump noises etc making it more difficult to detect, esp by hydrophone.



"DC's always falling to your depth." There is a factor set in the .sim that controls the depths DC will explode. Say your sub is at 300 ft and that factor is set to 50 ft, it will explode at 300 ft, or 50 ft above or below, roughly. A lot depends on skill level of escort, how solid their contact on is, sea conditions etc. If they have a solid contact on you, DC's may explode closer.

Evasion tips:

Submerged attack: After torpedo impacts, get you looks in etc. If DC hunting for you, closing, order test depth, rig for silent running, turn to heading so bow or stern (depending on which is closer) is facing closing escort, so low profile to beam.

Listen carefully for them closing, shifting to short scale pings, they stop typically as they close. Once stop pinging, ordered Ahead standard, listen for the DC splash in water, boom of the launchers. Order Ahead Full or Flank (I stick with full usually as get about same speed and avoid excessive drain on battery but sometimes, esp in later war when DC 's have a faster sink rate) until hear the DC's explode. After 30-60 seconds, order all stop and 5-10 degrees port or starboard rudder, let your subs momentum pull you through, after drop speed to 4-5 knots, order 1/3 speed, on silent running, will keep you under 100 rpms. Don't try going super slow, this is mistake many players made, under 100 rpm or 1/3 on silent running is fine, any slower your sub is a sitting duck.

Repeat the "speed burst" maneuver, changing direction each time...so if last DC run you went to port, go opposite direction 5-10 degrees (sometimes more rudder, but never full as your turn is too slow).



In addition to this direction change, you will want to change depth. Say are in a Gato, start at 300 ft, increase to 325 then 350 on next run. One is to make sure when going for depth, your stern is not sticking up because due to length of boat, your stern will be at the depth where DC's are going off at times, which can cause crippling damage to vital parts of boat.

Going to max depth is not always the best way to evade. The sim does simulate increased effect of underwater explosions at certain depths. A Gato for example, get below 400 ft you're in a danger zone for that particular hull, even though can survive quite a bit deeper, it does not stand up to the increased effects way a thicker hull boat such as the Balao. The Balao and Tench can stand up to the effects better even at 500 feet and can obviously go a bit deeper than the Gato.


Within giving too much away, can take a fleetboats test depth (S boat is different) and can feel safe, if have full integrity, at 100 feet below and even if take hull damage, typically will not suffer hull collapse vs if are beyond that 100 ft.





Donation Narhwal is not compatible with TMO Update. While it may work to some degree, you'll find it does not work. Reason will not allow start in June is mod has not been made compatible with the update.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

Is there a way to bring up the detailed operational orders before or after sailing to reference during play, short of copying them down or printing the .tsr file?

I just got a pre-war mission to conduct simulated attacks against the USS Marblehead in Lingayen Gulf. It said I should include a loadout of 4 Mk 10 torpedoes for the practice attacks.

Did you make these up or are you going by actual pre-war patrol reports?


CW

P.S. Never find the Marblehead. Must of had that new camo from the Philadelphia Experiment.

No, there is no way to bring up the orders in game. There should be, as Captain would have them at sea. Best is to prior to starting patrol type them up in a text doc or do a screenshot. I usually take a photo with phone and type up in a text doc for reference on patrol and for later patrol report.


Pre-War missions I added are a mix of history based pre war exercises and patrols I read about and some "what ifs" but are not impossible that occurred or could have.

The exercise missions for example, are based on historical actions by US subs. The Pearl based boats may be assigned to conduct ops with carrier task force , which they did in pre war as the fleet boat was originally designed to operate with the fleet. These subs would also provide practice targets for the escorting DD's and vice versa.

In Asiatic the exercise with Marblehead is based on history. During research I read some subs engaged in exercises with her and other vessels.

Subs typically fired practice torpedoes, set to run below keel of target, if torpedo wake went below target, it was considered a hit. Practice torpedo at end of its run would float to top and could be recovered. Early on, there was a recovery vessel in area but later subs carried gear and recovered their own practice fish. Obviously the recovery aspect can not be simulated but can fire the MK 10 as practice fish to simulate these exercises.

If you are assigned a "depth charge indoctrination" in training, these units will attack you, so stay out of sight surfaced and will attack with depth charges. I included a practice depth charge mod to activate before going to sea.

A mission that will be in next release is for Gar New Construction in 1941. Gar class boats were used to test the effects of depth charges on new fleet boats in summer 1941. Believe it or not, first such tests conducted by US in history.


Other orders such as patrolling off home islands to observe shipping etc are fictional as to my knowledge none of our subs conducted such patrols, but figured its possible they could have and would prove interesting in the sim.

I did place objectives to give player chance to run into enemy forces and depending on where and when, they may be hostile if detect, or may not.

Movements of the Akagi are scripted, so player may catch the carrier when underway after her refit in summer 1941, as well as other carriers on training. Can catch them departing for the Kurile Islands where the carriers that would strike Pearl Harbor assembled prior to departing for the strike.

The invasion of French Indochina in July 1941 is scripted, player has chance to get orders that put them in position to possibly encounter said force. They may be hostile or may ignore, had it go both ways during testing.


Marblehead not showing up was a issue in testing, sometimes it showed up, sometimes it did not, not sure exactly why but have a idea. Plan to take another look in next version.

[Captain Wreckless]

Some good insight there. One thing I was doing was going super slow hoping to avoid detection.


Anyway, just completed a pre-war mission and have stopped just outside the mine free zone off Corregidor. What escort ship will come out to lead me through them. The only ship I see is a MTB that is just doing his own thing.



I can see the mines in the TBT, but I really don't want to try. I can't end my patrol 'cuz Corregidor is only rearm/refuel.


CW

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

Some good insight there. One thing I was doing was going super slow hoping to avoid detection.


Anyway, just completed a pre-war mission and have stopped just outside the mine free zone off Corregidor. What escort ship will come out to lead me through them. The only ship I see is a MTB that is just doing his own thing.



I can see the mines in the TBT, but I really don't want to try. I can't end my patrol 'cuz Corregidor is only rearm/refuel.


CW

Yep, common mistake, thinking going 0.5-1 kt will lessen chances of detection.Makes sense but not how it works.

Follow the PT boat, that is your escort. If I recall minefield is active July 1941. PT boat will go through the gap in the minefield, follow it.

[Captain Wreckless]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Yep, common mistake, thinking going 0.5-1 kt will lessen chances of detection.Makes sense but not how it works.

Follow the PT boat, that is your escort. If I recall minefield is active July 1941. PT boat will go through the gap in the minefield, follow it.

I decided to follow the MTB. Would have thought it would take me South of Corregidor but it's taking me North.


Made it through the mines.


Have an issue. I'm 100 yards off the pier at Cavite, but I'm not getting the dock option to end my patrol. It is showing dock at Manila rearm/refuel or postpone. Do I need to be somewhere else to end my patrol?

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Captain Wreckless

I decided to follow the MTB. Would have thought it would take me South of Corregidor but it's taking me North.


Made it through the mines.


Have an issue. I'm 100 yards off the pier at Cavite, but I'm not getting the dock option to end my patrol. It is showing dock at Manila rearm/refuel or postpone. Do I need to be somewhere else to end my patrol?

Good, the PT boat is escort, it just goes back and forth and then turns around once clear of the field, and follows safe course back, so can follow for safe passage through the field. This combined with markings on map make it fairly easy to safely navigate, just have to be patient and don't get too happy with the TC, esp when comes to turning inside the field.



At Corregidor there is the South Dock and North Dock, where player can "dock" to unload on assigned cargo missions, evacuate personnel etc. To reach the South dock, player has to go through minefield and around the east end of the island, the wide mouth of manila bay is closed off by minefields.

The in game minefield was designed to mirror the historical one within limits of the sim. There is a historical map in the documentation included with mod that shows the minefield.

The Army controlled some of the minefields which could be detonated remotely and were put on safe when ships would pass through. Obviously this can't be simulated in SH 4.

The Navy had a minefield as well that was the traditional contact mines that were always armed. Going on memory from research here, out of town, do not have the materials in front of me.



Depending on date, sounds like your home port has shifted from Cavite if can not end patrol there. If I recall only end patrol at Cavite until Dec 25 1941, base shifts to Surabaya I believe, look for the fouled anchor on map indicating homeport. There is a radio message reporting Asiatic boats shift ops to Surabaya etc, but is possible to miss, always look on map for the fouled anchor in case it shifts.

[Captain Wreckless]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Depending on date, sounds like your home port has shifted from Cavite if can not end patrol there. If I recall only end patrol at Cavite until Dec 25 1941, base shifts to Surabaya I believe, look for the fouled anchor on map indicating homeport. There is a radio message reporting Asiatic boats shift ops to Surabaya etc, but is possible to miss, always look on map for the fouled anchor in case it shifts.

The date is July 11, 1941. I'll play around with it and see if I can get it to allow me to end patrol.


CW