Pros and Cons - Current Tank Sims (and your recommendations?)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427

I am more partial to Skybirds side on this. I haven't played SBP myself, but wanting to buy it for a few years makes you do your homework.
If memory serves me right, SBP is a training simulator, just with the instructor module removed.

And certain map options, redcued availability of maps, limited number of players in multiplay.

Steel Beasts was built to give the user every preparation to go to war in that certain tank, being able to drive it and use it's gun without having to use any petrol or waste any ammunition.

No. there is no competent driving module. The focus was on tactical coordination of mechanized forces from a TC's perspective, the firing module (plus according handles by AFVsims), was added later by demand. also, many tank-internal procedures are ignored, even more so in those tanks that do not feature fully modelled 3D interiors (like the Leopard2-A4 for example). So the sim is a plan-making, a tactical and gunnery trainer, it is no tank trainer making you more competent to drive and run that thing.

Steel Fury and TvsT were built to give the user the impression of "this is how war was fought back then" The battles depicted and the tactics used were taken from a book or eyewitness accounts, and probably a lot of artistic liscense

I think it was not about how the battles were fought realistically. It was about giving it the visual looks of the time (and this they did quite successfully, I would say). Both games do not show how battles were really fought, for that they lack tactical competence, realistic formation manouvering and management, and a better AI.

Whether or not the penetration power of projectiles and the resistence of armour plates on different parts of given vehicles are realistic or not, I cannot - and have not - judged. At least they seem to get correct the basic rules of "kinetic ammo loosing power over greater range", and "turret tougher than hull, front tougher than flank tougher than rear". But that only saves it when tactical behavior and AI do not fail you - and that is the game's problems.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by frinik

Well Sledge this is what I said in one of my posts as well.SB is professional training software tweaked into a game.It was developped thanks probably to generous disbursements by the Pentagon or NATO

No, the US army has not bought it, and NATO had nothign to do with it. The team built them first version by itself, basing on not classified information that is poublicly available, and feedback from real tankers. the danish then bought it, and since then they offer it to other customer nations as well. just after that start they started to implement features that existing or potential customers ordered.

while SF and TvsT were made by small teams of Eastern Europeans programmers very dedicated but without the required funds to do anything comparable.Graviteam people say that much on their forum when they mentions that being cash/strapped forces them to adhere to basics when they make games.Had they been able to make SF with the kind of support/funding SB has had then perhaps the result might have been different.

I doubt that that is much different with ESim, it is no great studio either. If they had more money,m the sim would implement more of gamer's demand, but they cannot afford the ressoruces to do that in most cases, at least it takes them long time. A crewable T-72 for example is hoped for since years. Other features they rightout must reject. the team was even smaller in the very beginning of eSim. I think they still depend on basically just one programmer, the others help in vehicle design, skins, sounds, etc.

Lieste et al, correct me if I saying something wrong.

Unless some game company with ample funds and a willingness to put perfection ahead of short term profits comes along and agrees to pout the cash needed to make a WW2 sim comparable or that can compete with SB then SB will reign supreme for decades to come.

I think a shift in focus would be as important, if not more. the porblem with great publishers is that they tend to rush titles onto markets. so big money companies a,one are not necessarily a solution. in the cosim genre, the best games come from the smallest teams, it seems to me.

Frankly I don't see that coming because the tank sim game market is small compared to first person shooters, RTS or arcade/style sims like the Wolrd of Tanks, Panzer Elite Action Fields of Glory or Dunes of War.Even the aircraft or sub sims markets are probably bigger

tjhat is n surprise, flight games always have been extremely popular, naval sims are a niche product only.But the demand for tank games is not as small as you think, i think. I remember very well the heated activity in the forum here and elsehwere when it was annouhced that a WWII tanker is comingl and not even one but two! But then it was lighthouse, and the sims themselves also not convincing for many people, so the majorty of the trek moved on, leaving only real fans on the scene.

I think a really welldone WWII tanksim that is released in a good shape and by competent publisher, and that features good tactics, a minimum of physical realism, a minimum in battlefield realism, and a solid AI, would have the potential to become really successful, like SH3 or IL2 - even more so when it would also look good.

[frinik]

Thanks Skybird for the correction. For some reason I thought SB had been susidised by some government or institution.Then all the more merit for the developers since they worked without major financial patron.

Re the tank sim market I got the info that the " realistic" tank sim( the real ones as I am excluding the arcade tank games which are fairly more popular sales-wise than the realistic ones) from a 2008 article on SimHQ which said that the market was very small and that explained why so few titles actually came out every year on the market.However there´s a very fervent hard-core group of tank sim lovers( I include myself) which boils up with hope everytime a new tank sim comes out. I agree with you that´s there defintely ground for improvement .Graviteam is releasing 2 new titles; a post WW2 tank sim called Steel Armour, Blaze of War featuring the T62 and M60 ( and possibly other tanks like the Chieftain, T55) with missions to be played on 60 sq km maps in various war theatres like Angola, Iran-Iraq and Afghanistan and a WW2 one next year based on the last battle for Kharkov in August 1943 using their very successful Achtung Panzer Roads to Kharkov RTS game engine as a basis.They are promosing a focus on strategy and tactics with airstrikes, artillery, the ability to dig trenches, infantry assaults and improved AI . We´ll see if their labour will live up to the expectations.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by frinik

a post WW2 tank sim called Steel Armour, Blaze of War featuring the T62 and M60 ( and possibly other tanks like the Chieftain, T55) with missions to be played on 60 sq km maps in various war theatres like Angola, Iran-Iraq and Afghanistan

If that is what you are interested in, amongst much other stuff the new version of SBP offers you (so far non-crewable) right those M60A3s and T-55s and T-62, and the theatres you mentioned anyway. with the crewable Leopard-1DK and the crewable Leopard-1AS, battles of that vehicle composition can be realistically modelled without having any historic "time gaps" that would need to be compensated for. Needless to say that since it is SBP, settings for ammunition effectiveness and armour characteristics can be expected to be spot on.

What also thrilled me is that for the first time ever these fantastic German armoured fighting vehicles called "Wiesel" are introduced, too: fast, agile like hell, small in size, can hide everywhere, hard to spot and aim at, and capable to deliver total knockout blows at tanks even over longest distances. These tiny little beasts are hell to fight against. In reality they come in small autocannon, TOW, mortar and anti-air configurations. Their name "Weasel" is very well-choosen.





I love these things. But as somebody wrote in another forum: their crews tend to be (and need to be, as he said) a bit crazy.

[frinik]

You can now play the Wiesel in SB? Wonderful news.Thanks for posting the U Tube.What mod is it exactly?

These small tracked vehicles would be ideal in Afghanistan to use against the Taliban terrorists.These cowardly murderers have notched another exploit; they just murdered 10 foreign medics giving free eye care to Afghani children.In addition to disfiguring young girls going to school , destroying cultural monuments these illiterate fanatics have shown their " courage" once more.They´re the real wiesels.....

Anyway enough ranting.

Thanks Skybird!

[Skybird]

No mod, but a new program version, 2.53 i think, or 2.56. It is not added to existing versions, but is a separate new installation in itself. You do just one install and then you're done and most up-to-date. the old codemeter stick is being used.

I just do not know if the Wiesel is crewable or only commandable. There are 20 new vehicles all in all, some are oll-out new, some are reworks-from-scratch (that's why they are "new") of already existing vehicles.

The wiesel can be seen in the third teaser:



The second teaser shows the M60, T-55 and T-62 in action:

[Sledgehammer427]

Thanks for the correction at the top of the page Skybird, still some more homework to do I guess.

So are the Steel Beasts patches/updates starting to go backwards? last I saw they were releasing more modern tanks and now they are going back to the Pattons and T-55's?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427

Thanks for the correction at the top of the page Skybird, still some more homework to do I guess.

So are the Steel Beasts patches/updates starting to go backwards? last I saw they were releasing more modern tanks and now they are going back to the Pattons and T-55's?

No, i assume these tanks got included because especially the M60 and the T-55 are very wide spread. The T-55 is the most often build tank after WWII, I think. I seem to remember an estimation of 95,000 being produced. In 3rd world missions, crews need to expect to meet them, especially the T-55 and T-64. Africa is infested with T-55s, so to speak.

The upcoming new version features also the most modern challenger-II, additonal to the M1A1 so far the M1A1 HA and M1A2 SEP, plus a range of forward observers, combat support vehicles, civilian cars, combat vehicles, most promising the Piranha-III with fully modelled Weapon Remote Station RWS, and 3D interior. Several already existing vehicles got updated (newly done) models and skins. It is hoped that the Centauro from last year will have been made a crewable, too (still not confirmed so far).

Plus plenty of new buildings, NVG, snow to sink into, city street walls, and more.

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/...2_itemId=16069

[Sledgehammer427]

SBP has reached the top of my "must buy this year" list.

I've been looking for a game that will challenge my tactical expertise

[murkz]

Originally Posted by Skybird

It is hoped that the Centauro from last year will have been made a crewable, too (still not confirmed so far).

Looks like you have your Centauro interior Skybird

[Skybird]

That will be fun!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer427

I've been looking for a game that will challenge my tactical expertise

Alternative, if you want a challenge to your tactical expertise: Conquest of the Aegean and the successor Battle of the Bulge, Matrix Games. Ground strategy on operational level, very detailed, very nasty AI. I always could swear I play some mean wicked human. Best strategy and tactis game of that kind I know of.