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Old 09-14-20, 03:16 PM   #16
Bilge_Rat
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Hindsight is always 20/20.

-after the murder of 2,977 innocent civilians by the largest terrorist attack on american soil, it was clear the U.S. would be gunning for UBL and the rest of Al Qaida.

-the Afghanistan invasion was a foregone conclusion from the time the Taliban leadership started stalling on giving up UBL.

-what went wrong in Afghanistan was changing the focus of the mission from eradicating UBL/Al Qaida to "nation building". From the beginning, it was clear no one in the West would ever put in the funds and troops required to turn Afghanistan into a functioning democracy with a functioning semi-industrialized economy. The numbers and men required were astronomical and no western electorate would ever agree to it, so from the start, the "nation building" was done on the cheap and was doomed to fail. We should have cut our losses and left years ago.

-The Iraq invasion was a msiatke for the same reasons as in Afghanistan.

Was it worth it? probably not. OTOH, the U.S. thaught the ROW an important lesson. If you harbor or have ties to a terrorist organization that kills U.S. civilians, no one will protect you from the U.S. military.
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Old 09-14-20, 06:19 PM   #17
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Nothing went wrong. When you think of Afghanistan, think militarization of national policy since WWII and Carter Doctrine.

Don't fool yourself, it doesn't matter who the president is or what political party he represents. We aren't leaving Iraq OR Afghanistan.
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Old 09-15-20, 05:25 AM   #18
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The British learned not to get involved in AF
The Soviets/Russians learned not to get involved in AF
The US has learned not to get involved in AF


I wonder which will be the next nation who thinks that they will be different this time?
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Old 09-15-20, 07:47 AM   #19
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Just the hysterical romanticists - the Germans - still cry about lost chances and talk of not giving up things and would want to stay (if only they could by their own means, but fact is that they could not: when the US completely pulls out, the Germans and other Europeans will/must follow. So, I would say the Germans have still not learned the lesson.
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Old 09-15-20, 08:50 AM   #20
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the best recent example of a succesful military intervention was the French in Mali in 2013.

Islamist rebels seized half the country, beat government forces and were moving on the capital.

The French sent in a quick reaction force which stopped the rebels and reconquered all of Mali in about 6 weeks. The French allied themselves with local groups, some with dodgy human rights records, but who knew the country and had the support of the local population.

Once the country was stabilised, they turned control back to the government, which was a military junta and left.

It was not the ideal situation, but it did get rid of the Islamists and they have not posed a real threat since then.

The hallmark of any successful military intervention is:

1. Have a clear objective of what your goals are before you go in;
2. Have a realistic assessment of what can be achieved;
3. Have a clear exit strategy.
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Old 09-15-20, 10:21 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar View Post
Nothing went wrong. When you think of Afghanistan, think militarization of national policy since WWII and Carter Doctrine.

Don't fool yourself, it doesn't matter who the president is or what political party he represents. We aren't leaving Iraq OR Afghanistan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Platapus View Post
The British learned not to get involved in AF
The Soviets/Russians learned not to get involved in AF
The US has learned not to get involved in AF


I wonder which will be the next nation who thinks that they will be different this time?

Someone once called AF 'the place where civilizations go to die'; a brief history of a long history:


Why Is Afghanistan the ‘Graveyard of Empires’? --

https://thediplomat.com/2017/06/why-...rd-of-empires/




<O>
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Old 09-15-20, 04:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockstar View Post
Don't fool yourself, it doesn't matter who the president is or what political party he represents. We aren't leaving Iraq OR Afghanistan.

We have the snake by the tail ... as it were.
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Old 09-15-20, 05:27 PM   #23
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There are well payed personal working in Pentagon who is trying to solve these problems-what went wrong in Afghanistan, Iraq and maybe Syria.

I must say the aftermath seems to be more overwhelming than I thought. I was only concentrating on Afghanistan and Iraq.
I was never near Libya or Syria.

Bilge_Rat wrote something which made me remember a discussion I had with a friend some years ago..Around the time when this peace talk in Afghanistan was mentioned first time.

1. Have a clear objective of what your goals are before you go in;
2. Have a realistic assessment of what can be achieved;
3. Have a clear exit strategy.

Mine was different.
1. What is the purpose for the invasion of the country?
2. Do NOT make friends with the opposition or fractions !
(They will take advantage of you and bake their own cake)
3. Are you willing to pay the price needed to fulfill the goal of the invasion ?

Markus
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Old 09-15-20, 07:32 PM   #24
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News flash, we've been in Afghanistan since 1979

1st Goal: destabilize Soviet - Afghan relations.

2nd: strengthen U.S. - Afghan relations.

3rd: protect those relations.

Unlike previous empires we do not colonize other countries as I believe that would mean the host is no longer a sovereign. Which leads us to the 4th goal: we establish military bases instead.

There is no doubt 9/11 was a terrible tragedy. But in the big picture that event was just a flash in the pan of time, one day out of tens of thousands in U.S. foreign relations and policy. It made for a damn good reason to take advantage of said event to project U.S. military power and firmly establish ourselves in that region. We are there to stay, even Biden has said he will keep troops there. But like I said this isn't a president or party decision this is well established doctrine. Its been shown, just recently I might add, that a president who says or thinks otherwise will be publicly ostracized by his generals, the media, corporate & military industry. And of course the ever loyal party hacks who being sheep just follow the party line.
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Last edited by Rockstar; 09-16-20 at 10:40 AM.
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