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Old 06-22-20, 04:38 AM   #1
Stewy1
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Default Any interest in a 1983 Grenada Mission?

G'day guys,

Just wanted to sound you out about something.

I've been reading and researching a lot into the U.S. invasion of Grenada, in October, 1983.

I was thinking of planning a mission, where you leave San Juan, Puerto Rico, to operate alone in the Caribbean, in the week before the invasion (and leave Grenadian waters when the Independence and Guam Task Groups arrive)

Questions for you all (because this'll take me a few days of solid mission writing - I have holidays coming up):

1. Would there be an interest in a longer mission like this, or not?
2. Would you prefer to play Perry (Clifton Sprague is not in DW, Underwood would be a fair substitute), or the Urgent Fury subs - Sturgeon (Silversides) or LA Flt 1 (Portsmouth) - obviously there would be advantages and disadvantages to each platform - and it would dictate the style of mission too...

What do you think, guys? Worth making a mission like this? or Nah?

Cheers guys,
Stew
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Old 06-22-20, 07:06 AM   #2
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Hello, Stewy!


Well, for those of us who aren't that familiar with Grenada '83, what would the missions entail?
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Old 06-22-20, 03:01 PM   #3
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1. Mission should be shorter because your last very long mission was never completed because you focused on familygrams instead mission goals.
2. For me Perry would be more interesting. We have many single player missions for submarines and only few for surfs. Also long missions are more interesting from surf perspective. For example helo management could be crucial for success of operation.
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Old 06-24-20, 10:19 AM   #4
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I think I also would be interested in surface version of the mission but above all I would like to hear some tips on how to go about designing missions in DW. Lately, I read and re-read DW Scenario Building Manual and found the entire subject of Mission building in DW still fascinating as far as the scope and potential possibility hidden there.

Terms like Scripts and Doctrine Language and many others are pretty fascinating and I can see that original SONALYST designers really "went to town " by giving us quite a tool and RA folks really pushed this area of developing of those doctrines for ever new types of weapons and platforms and putting it to really good use. I do realize that Doctrine files are not precisely what Mission language is about but I think they are similar.

I was also watching FTPShazly rather short DW Mission Designer intro video and found it also interesting and helpful (perhaps we could have more than 1 video). Then subsequently I am planning to watch and rewatch p7p8 missions to learn from there as well.

So to sum up what I am blabbing here about is to suggest that this plan to make Operation Urgent Fury83 could be done in form of the blog or vlog of how one goes about with designing missions in DW. Could be perhaps really interesting if this could end up collaboration of the experts here and open discussion about solutions "how to" create believable missions and campaigns.
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Old 06-24-20, 03:56 PM   #5
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Ok, thanks for the feedback, gents.

Looks like it's Perry for the win.

Therefore the type of missions would be ASW, ASuW, air-defence (defense), gunfire support, counter-piracy, liaison with friendly forces, etc.

I might try and 'chop these up' into a few shorter missions.

I had started to make the Grenada mission with the Perry - beginning with a naval gunfire ex off the Vieques Is. Range. But then I hit a snag when I found out that only air platforms can be resupplied in the mission editor.

(starting a week in the Caribbean with no rounds for the gun put a big spanner in the works!)

I might as well finish the gunfire ex and see what you think.

Cheers,
Stew
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Old 06-25-20, 11:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polak2 View Post
I am planning to watch and rewatch p7p8 missions to learn from there as well.
Thx but my missions are hard to learning for someone who isn't familiar with editor.
You should use filters because some objects and tactics makes general view not clear for learning.

I made 3 videos for mission makers. One video is simple mission made from scratch to end + test.

But for good mission most important is some kind of sketch with main idea. Without this you will stuck on details. I always make it in my head, (sometimes details on paper).
I recommend to make scenario in "Top-down" method. Otherwise detaills will eat your motivation and you will stuck with nothing.

Very important is map region cause DW havent good drawed shore line and depth/hight map.

Historical mission for first scenario is very bad idea. Its because DW have many limits (for example not all warships/submarines in database). Experienced mission designer is able to use some substitutes for ships but also for trigger solutions (not all is available)



Here is video from making full simple mission.




If you stuck with triggers i can always help. Mission editor is very "stubborn" sometimes but i knows few tricks
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Old 07-01-20, 03:33 AM   #7
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I'm not at all familiar with the navy part of Urgent Fury (did Urgent Fury even include the navy parts of the operation or was that only the land forces effort?), so I would be interested in a longer scenario which is inspired by the events in 1983.

Playability should precede historical accuracy in terms of involved platforms and missions/tasks assigned to the player.
I would not try too hard to recreate specific historical events as it might bog you down and be frustrating. I don't have much DW mission design experience but have learned this from designing historically inspired missions for other games (I made a battle of Mount Longdon mission for the Falklands mod for Operation Flashpoint once).

A single, longer mission might work better when the player drives a sub as it operates more independently whereas a surface platform needs to coordinate more with other platforms controlled by the AI. This is harder to orchestrate and get right in the mission editor I guess?

Do you have any book recommendations on the Grenada invasion (both naval and land campaign)? Or did you use online resources only?
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Old 07-01-20, 09:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janus View Post
A single, longer mission might work better when the player drives a sub as it operates more independently whereas a surface platform needs to coordinate more with other platforms controlled by the AI
I don't agree because surface platform is more independent than sub. Especially with 2 helos onboard. Any playable surf platform have mostly better situation picture than submarine and can respond much quicker for changes. Also surfs are more elastic for many kind of operations.
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Old 07-01-20, 12:53 PM   #9
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I see your point, the surface platform provides more flexibility. Maybe I'm biased as I've been playing subs exclusively the last couple of days

Either way, this 1983 setting could make for an interesting mission or series of missions.
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Old 07-01-20, 02:43 PM   #10
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Im sure this scenario never will be release in "final" version because Stewy havent main concept/vision of this mission. Asking surf or sub reveals this sad truth.

Making historical missions in DW is very hard. Its because database is poor and some game mechanics works really bad. For example air operations. But in almost all real naval operations air had serious role - like in Urgent Fury.
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Old 07-01-20, 09:50 PM   #11
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p7p8,

please be not hard on Stewy1 that he is trying to continue what he likes to do. Modding is a hobby after all, but I hear totally your frustration about DW engine and other game mechanics being not fully flexible to accommodate all facets of modern combat simulations. This is unfortunately rather common with many other great simulations. Only after quite few years of gathering serious familiarity and experience with the game (like yourself!), sometimes this truth becomes sadly quite evident.

And yet this does not prevent other modders like LWAMI before, Reinforced Alert now and others the names escapes me right now from trying to get more out of this closed and sometimes pretty much-padlocked box for their own and other users joy and entertainment.

Having said this I consider DW rather much more mod friendly than not, because of the open Doctrines and Mission Editor.

All for good fun!
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Old 07-02-20, 05:53 AM   #12
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It's not frustration because i really like DW editor and i made dozens of scenarios. I just observe Stewe1's "new mission announcements' since many years. And he always start his work in not correct order.
Before announcement he should make short research but he never did.
So mission where main role was air operation is not good choice for game where it is most unpredictable and buggy game aspect.

Its like announcing big "foxtrot campaign" with big plans about missions, goals, regions, collecting historical data etc. And after this "mind storm" he sudenly notice - Foxtrot is NOT controlable.

Last time this unbreakable barrier was:
Quote:
only air platforms can be resupplied in the mission editor.
It was reason to leave current "another big project"

And i always ask him for making "not-epic" scenario and he always make "more-epic" scenarios. Result - no single scenario for years.
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Old 07-02-20, 10:05 AM   #13
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We do not want to start an argument or worse shooting forum exchange. Do we? Instead, I would rather focus on more positive and informative subjects like what are DW strongest points as a simulation engine but also what are its limits and how to best to avoid trappings while mission designing?

What naval operations are best portrayed by the engine and what not so good? Is this all a result of lack of a proper Doctrine file or it is because certain things are not programmed into NavalSimEngine which as I see it is the program core of the game.

It is pretty fascinating to see how RA managed to introduce more and more new Doctrine files (from around 50 original to I believe 250 now). It is obvious that must be knowing about other things like memory addresses and such.

To me, the real beauty of this particular simulation is its complexity and most interesting forum discussions are exploring the boundaries of it. I know it is subject for real knowledgeable folks but it is interesting ....
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Old 07-02-20, 11:57 AM   #14
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But mission making is not modding. If you wanna make own mission you should learn basics first. Otherwise its like "i wanna make beauty poster in photoshop so please teach me what to do because i never launched photoshop"

Quote:
I would rather focus on more positive and informative subjects like what are DW strongest points as a simulation engine but also what are its limits and how to best to avoid trappings while mission designing?
Its too complex to answer because some limitation you could bypass. Making good mission is not like throwing all positive aspects of simnavalengine into one cauldron. Its also not reading about historical operations. Its something between - mix ot these both things.

Experienced mission maker just knows what is possible to do and what will be very hard or impossible. For example ships in formation very often collide themself while turning. So you have to make more space between ships. It means: forget about very thight formations.
But unexperienced player will read somewhere about real operation where ships were in very tight formation and will put them on map very close to eachother.
Then without testing "formation stage" he will make dozens of familygram to increase immersion. After 2 weeks of working he will finally test mission and... surprise - all was pointless because ships cannot maintain formation for 15 minutes.

This is typical @Stewy1 problem with mission designing. Instead working from top-down he start from details which havent matter to mission. And after months of working he discover - main concept was wrong.

I recommend start mission making from simple missions - without dozens of familygrams and other not important details. Its easiest way to learn quite fast what works fine and where you should use some tricks. But we always read about "epic" missions inspired real evaent but without main concept.
Inspiration cannot fulfill main concept.

We love this game because of simulation level - not because of familygrams.
Escort, attaching, SOF are essential of this game - not historical background or what was NBA league score in 83'


I have good experience with mission designing and i can help to find solution of editor problems. But without posting specific problems i cannot give you recipt for good missions.


I have an idea. I can make simple mission (with recording video from this process) accordingly to features suggested by subsim members.
So if you are interested - just make simple sketch in different thread.
This will open discussion what is possible and what isn't. And maybe after this "guide" @Stewy1 will learn something about mission designing.

You should suggest:
- player platform
- mission goal
- enemy
- random/not random events
- what will make this mission concept original
- what will make this mission dificult or easy
- etc.
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Old 07-02-20, 07:28 PM   #15
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That is very interesting take and replay. Thanks.

Sidenote: I know that you are very outspoken and your critiques are well founded in merits of the subject and your own experience. Just let us try to avoid open name-calling because that unfortunately sounds very harsh to the point of sounding even rude sometimes. I know you have a valid points and those familygrams perhaps have been little over the edge if not silly. Let us concentrate on the real merits and core of the subject how to make good mission using all DW can offer.

I will try to come with some ideas for the mission examples tomorrow.

PS. we should also establish separate thread and vacate Stewy1 Granada mission thread.
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