Released! The first review please!?

[ikalugin]

Just tried it, looks like a solid subsim but I need to learn the ropes.

Soviet single missions would be nice (in vanila or as a mod).

[Raskil]

Well after playing a couple of hours, I'll give it a try:

I would say Cold Waters plays like a mix of Janes Fleet Command and Sonarlysts Subsim Games.

You are tasked with commanding a NATO Submarine. But unlike the Sonarlysts games, this is not a "System Simulator", meaning that you can't use most systems directly. They are manned by your crew. You do most of the stuff from a map view like in Fleet Command.

So here is what you can do:
1. Navigate
You can set the speed of your Sub, The Balast Tanks and the Rudder. Speed is not controlable per Knot but in the usual telegraph steps (1/3, 2/3, standard, flank). Rudder is controlable in 5 Degree increments.
Other than that, you can do an emergency blow, silent running and thats about it. Given the fact that the game abstracts most stations, it feels arkward to control the ships movement in such Detail.

2. Sensors
You have the usual Sensor of a 688l available like towed array, hull sonar, active sonar, active intercept, Radar, ESM and Periscope. But beside the Periscope you can't control them directly, your crew does that for you. You can descide to use active sensor (like ping or radar), but just telling your crew to do so. Radar for example is activated when you raise the radar mast.
You can control the persicope yourself. There you can mark targets via a laser designator. So no stradimeter or advanced topics here.

3. TMA
TMA is done autoatically by your crew. For each contact a quality of the solution is shown as percentage. You can improve your crews TMA solution by offering them various things: Better contact quality (Sound layer, reduce distance, etc.), by maneuvering more, by using active sensors, or by identifying the contact type via an simplified narrowband display.
The contacts you crew tracks are shown on the map. Display on the map is only as good as the solution your crew has calculated.

4. Identiying Contacts
As written above, you can try to identify a contact via a very simplified narrowband display. Depending on Sound quality, freqzency lines are shown and you can match them with a reference to get the contact type. No Deamon or other systems involved.

5. Weapon Control
You fire weapons by selecting them in you Torpedo Tube or VLS display. Then you set a waypoint on the map to fire them. You can set stuff like search pattern, FOV and Depth, but it's not very detailed. Wire Guided Torpedos can by steered throuh an simplified interface or via dragging your weapon waypoint on the map. The wire can get cut-off.
Weapons that you can use: MK48, Harpoons und Tomahawks (And a non-guided torpedo, I forgot the type). And you have Noisemaker countermeasures as well.

6. Damage control
If you get hit, you need to tell your repair crew which compartment to focus on. You need to fight flooding or failing subsystems.


The game comes with a tutorial which explains the basics. Then there a single missions and a campaign mode. In Capaign Mode there is a simulated conflict between NATO and Soviet forces. You get Missions from high command, but you are free to act to your liking (But command appriciates if you do theire missions). You drive your sub from a world map till enemy contacts are discovered in your vincinity. Then the game drops into the normal single mission gameplay.

To sum it up:

Cold Waters has it moments. You can fokus on tactical decisions, because you don't need to operate all of the sensors yourself. The level of detail on the simulation varies greatly: From my point of view, the sound propagation model for example is modeled really well (with thermo layers, surface duct, convergenze zone and stuff). Other parts are modeled badly: I can launch a Tomahawk from 400 ft down, my towed array never cuts, even if I do the wildest maneauvers.
To rephrase my Fleet Command and Sonarlyst intro: You can only command one sub, as in the Sonarlyst games, but most of the systems are abstracted/simulated as they are in fleet command, meaning that you can use them directly, but rather from a map view.

Hope that helps.

Regards

Raskil

[Lanzfeld]

Many thanks Raskil!

Bottom line....worth $40 or wait?

[Hans Schultz]

Originally Posted by Lanzfeld

Many thanks Raskil!

Bottom line....worth $40 or wait?

Bottom line. I think I will be worth $40 in the future, after it's had some polish and feed back. I've only got a few hours in but I like it. It's solid.

[Raskil]

Originally Posted by Lanzfeld

Bottom line....worth $40 or wait?

Woah, thats a tough one. It depends on what you want from it. If you are looking for a Dangerous Waters or Subcommand type of game, with all it's modeled systems I would say don't go for Cold Waters.

I had fun in Cold Waters so far, because I like the tactical aspect of it: You are mostly on your own im Campaign mode. which means you have to be really thoughtful with how you attack, how you want to escape and stuff like that. I've been ripped to shreds a couple of times now by a Tu-142 dropping sonar buoys all over me as soon as I fired my first torpedo. From my point of view, that aspect makes up for the sometimes flawed simulation.
If hat sounds like fun to you, then I would say "Go for it"

[Onkel Neal]

FPSchazly is streaming Cold Waters.

[zachanscom]

first quality sub sim in close to a decade? it's a no brainer. call of duty and its ilk retails at 60 dollars on pc. just some perspective.

[PL_Harpoon]

Hi all. Here's my 2 cents.
Just spent about 3 hrs in the game. Did all tutorial missions and a couple of single ones.

First big problem ATM is that you can't order course/depth. There's only manual control which is great for dodging torpedoes but not so good for anything else. At least I didn't had any problems with surfacing the ship by accident (you can use ballast that's slower but much more precise). Still it is annoying and hopefully the devs will add direct orders in the future.

Second thing might not even be an issue with game, but I found that enemy torpedoes behave strangely. Let me explain. I was in a scenario against one Oscar and one Victor subs. We exchanged torpedoes and mine got them both first. At the end I was left with one fish after me. It was coming at me from the west, so I fired a decoy to the north and went south. The torpedo first went after me, but I fooled it with a noisemaker, which made it go in a circle and eventually lock on my decoy. But then when it reached the decoy it immediately turned around and started moving towards me (south) in a snake pattern. It all looked like it either remembered my last position (were torpedoes even programmed to do that?) or it looked like it was wire-guided (but all enemy subs were sunk ATM). Just felt strange.

Another thing I noticed regarding torpedoes is that the wire cuts off really easily. I don't mind when it sometimes happens at launch or after some hard manoeuvring but it happens even when I was at 10 knots, firing them straight ahead without any manoeuvrers. One time I fired 3 torpedoes like that (even went up to 150ft to see if that would help) and all of them were cut off at about 3000 yards.

But that sums up my problems with the game so far. And to be honest all of those things can either be fixed or even get used to if there's no other choice. And so far I think it's worth it. The game has a very strong RSR vibe with improvements in many areas. The combat is challenging even on normal difficulty. So far I've only been playing against enemy subs and on "normal" their tactics usually involves first spamming you with pings and then spamming you with torpedoes and running away at full speed (which actually is sometimes effective) since it takes a lot of time to loose torpedo for good (basically the only way to do that is to dodge it until it looses all fuel).
Also the presentation is very good. Graphics and especially explosions look really good and the models themselves are also great. The only thing they lack IMHO are little details like there's no model for towed sonar or torpedo wire. What also surprised me is the music which is quite good.

When it comes to realism, first let's get things straight - this is not a full on simulator but to be honest it doesn't pretend to be one. Just like the original RSR it's a war game with some simulation aspects. And honestly I'm satisfied with the thing they did. As everyone else is saying, the whole sound detection system is well simulated. Obviously we can't be certain what's simulated and what's RNG but I found that it feels like those TMS solutions really come from a lot of factors. Also there are lot of things that could be easily left out in a game, like a deadzone in the towed array detection range or different cavitation speeds at different depths. Things that seem obvious to someone who regularly plays DW but aren't really that obvious in a video game. There's also small touches like whales. One time at the start of a mission I discovered 5 contacts - 4 of them turned out to be whales (the all got killed by the stray torpedoes though ). Your crew is even good enough to provide TMA solutions if they move.


All in all, it looks like a very good and fun game with only a few flaws that can (hopefully) be fixed.

PS. Forgive bad grammar - it's 3:30 AM here and I'm too lazy to read through the entire thing again

[Stardog765]

Great info from all and much appreciated.

Still trying to decide myself but i sounds like its VERY mod friendly which is a great sign now if we can get some clarification if setting a course and depth can be modded in or whether the devs would be willing to add it then I would be sold.

Again though great info from you guy and thats reason I have always came here for any such sim, just lurker until recently though

[cj95]

CJ gives this:


..........9/10 CRAZY IVANS!!

[Char]

A few complaints So far is the Campaign's System of Contacts. Which, Basically throws you into a Single Mission Style arena. Setting up of an Ambush must take place from the a Big Map, and even then, I'm not always sure if I'm going to be put in the proper position. The Closing Distance Option is okay, Relating to the Sentence above, I'm not sure where the game will throw me in, so I'm not sure where I need to place myself.

The other issue is once you're in that instance we'll call it, That's it. If you leave, you fail. Even if your target is still in the SOSUS Line, and you're just repositioning after a 25k yard Approach somehow put them behind you in Your Baffles, you fail. It's a frustration I've never had before, The seeming lack of control to my approach. Perhaps I've been spoiled by Silent Hunter Too much? And perhaps with more hours I'll learn the system and overcome these complaints.


Now, GOOD Things. I'm quite in love with most of the OTHER game mechanics. The Controls, Whilst initially confusing to a Veteran SH Skipper, Were quite fun and easy to play around with. From Quick Dives to the slightest of course corrections, with not even maybe 10 minutes of practice, I was having no trouble with control. Treat it like an underwater jumbo jet. Steady corrections are the way to go.

Visuals aren't AAA, But, I've already admitted to playing a game series that's over 20 years old. The subs look good, the ships look good, the planes look good. the weapons look good. The Splash art for the Campaign screens are nice too (I See you M60A2 Patton "Starship") Sound is good too. The music is a good backdrop to what's going on around you. From just stalking a target, to the Impending approach of ASW Vessels. Weapons sound like you would expect them to. Sonar Pings send that familiar chill down your spine. Noisemakers Make their Noise, And the sound of Depth Charges splashes in the water make sitting in the Tactical Map a no go for me. My only issue here is a lack of Voiced Crew, or audible alerts to certain events. Things that may as well be fixed later down the line. They're certainly not a deal break for me either

Realism Levels are... Hmm. Sadly I'm not as versed in Cold War Era as most. So I'm a bit lacking here. But I'd say if a Nuke boat Skipper had to deal with something in 1968 or 1984, It's modeled as correctly as possible here. As others have said, It's not 100% "Do Everything" Sim. What isn't already Automated by Technology is Automated by trained professionals called "The Crew", which would be worrying about these tasks in a real boat anyways.

The AI is top Notch. I decided a few times to Mess with them. See what they could do. I was not disappointed. They are Aggressive, Relentless, and more importantly, GOOD at finding and killing you dead. Do not be afraid to drop down to easy until you get a hang of all the mechanics. I'm not going to judge you because all that I have said was done on normal.

The Weapons utilized are from what I can ascertain accurate. Though it gives me a little smirk to be in 1968 and firing Mark 16 Torpedoes. It's like reuniting with an old friend, except he's got this new and interesting Idea to get you Killed. (See Above Paragraph)

Overall, I have a lot to learn about the game and the mechanics still. But I look forward to learning them. though, I'm kind of disappointed in a lack of NATO Surface Vessels. It would be kind of interesting to see two Task Forces on the map Clash, and sticking yourself into the middle of it. Even as a Spectator it would be a sight to see.

Overall 7/10. I would Recommend if you want a Good Cold War Subsim that's Realistic enough to pass as a Simulation. But not as in depth as I've heard Dangerous Waters was.

Hours Played to Date: 3 Hours

[YoYo]

Thx for all infos! So I'll buy it too.

[Pirate]

I wish everyone would stop calling Cold Waters a subsim!
It's not a subsim.

It's a strategy and action game.

Compared to real subsims like DW, SC and SH series it's just plain arcadish...

Not only it does NOT really put you behind the "wheel" as all controls and functionality are dumbed down compared to subsims.

Yes, one thing it does have are gorgeous graphics!

[daft]

It also has tension in spades! I'm really liking this so far. It's quite difficult at times, but hey, it's war.

[xXNightEagleXx]

Originally Posted by Pirate

I wish everyone would stop calling Cold Waters a subsim!
It's not a subsim.

It's a strategy and action game.

Compared to real subsims like DW, SC and SH series it's just plain arcadish...

Not only it does NOT really put you behind the "wheel" as all controls and functionality are dumbed down compared to subsims.

Yes, one thing it does have are gorgeous graphics!

I'm sorry but i have to disagree. You do realize that a submarine has different crews each with its own role, right? For example, being a commander does not qualify you as an expert sonalyst. Silent Hunter does simulate at some degree each role, but fail to simulate a typical crew role. Instead you are forced to be a multitask crew member which is simply not realistic.

Cold Waters is neither a sonalyst sim, a radiomen sim nor fire control technician sim. Cold Waters is about being the Commander and his role is not to master the sonar nor master the machine room, his role is to give commands and take decisions, in order words decide the proper tactics that fits better to a given situation. So in this case, as you can see Cold Waters begin to get into sim category.

As a commander only what a sim must offer at this point is not manual control of multiple components of a submarine, but well done combat environment that force the commander to think twice and make them pay a high price when failing to do its homework (eg. failing to get enough awareness situation before proceeding with an attack).

What Cold Waters needs to really make it a good simulator is not to force you to manual control each aspect thus making it unrealistic but rather simulate systems failures and human error (for both AI and player crews) where applicable without adding artificial difficulties in order to avoid/reduce the 'gaming effect'.

Don't take me wrong, i really love having to plot everything by myself in Silent Hunter (although i don't like the tools that are given to you) but i would not bash Cold waters just because it doesn't offer that. It seems that some people failed to understand what Cold Waters was about!


Update: Obviously i ignored all bugs which MUST be fixed