ASDIC modelling in game

stellaferox · 06-13-20, 04:45 PM

Hi,

I was wondering how ASDIC has been modelled in the game. i noticed that even at periscope depth the escorts can ping you from distance. Historically the ASDIC signal couldn't get a ping shallower than 40 deg to the surface. Anyone with that information?

Fidd · 06-14-20, 11:46 AM

Destroyers in game usually make a visual or hydrophones detection, and commence an attack-run pinging in case you dive. That they are pinging doesn't mean they've made an asdic detection. If you don't dive, (and they'll assume you havn't if they make no asdic detection, then you'll get hammered near the surface. If you do dive, them of course that'll make it easier for them to make an Asdic contact, at which point only considerable depth will give you the time to evade whilst the DC's come down.

Pisces · 06-14-20, 12:54 PM

Maybe the real life effective angle was 40 degrees with that type of ASDIC. But it could have been that the uboat would still hear some of it above that. Just not enough to reflect a solid detectable ping back to the escort. Every microphone or speaker has a certain fall-off directional emission pattern. The edges of the cone are usually defined where the intensity is halved (-3 dB) with reference to the maximum level. So with enough amplification it might still be heard outside of the angle.

Also, with hindsight as they didn't know this yet at the time, if the sun has warmed up the upper layer of water the sound rays keep curving back to the surface and bounce down shallow again. Creating what is known as a surface layer. That would make the escort been heard by the uboat at longer distances than the escort would be able to effectively detect it.

But I doubt this is modelled to real life in the game at the moment. Devs have made it clear that the finer touches on the game will be made later.

stellaferox · 06-14-20, 01:50 PM

Thank you. I am aware of this. But even if I lie completely still for a longer time at periscope depth they are able to home in on me using ASDIC. That doesn't seem right.

Onkel Neal · 06-15-20, 07:12 AM

If you are at PD and an escort or merchant comes close your scope will be spotted. Also, even with the engines off, active sonar will pick you up if you come within range of a searching escort.

Pisces · 06-15-20, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stellaferox

Thank you. I am aware of this. But even if I lie completely still for a longer time at periscope depth they are able to home in on me using ASDIC. That doesn't seem right.

Lying still only means you are not producing engine,prop or waterflow noise. You could still emit ambient noise inside the boat that the escort hydrophone may be able to pick up. And being motionless does nothing to limit your ability to reflect active pings. Is your depth allowing you to be in the ASDIC vertical baffle zone? Well, apparently that is not modeled as such. Or it is shallower than you thought/history.

stellaferox · 06-15-20, 03:26 PM

Yes, I thought as much. It is clearly homing in on ASDIC and nothing else. Well, have to take that into account. Something for the devs to put on the wishlist. Realism for ASDIC....

AKD · 07-19-20, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stellaferox

Historically the ASDIC signal couldn't get a ping shallower than 40 deg to the surface.

Where are you getting that from?

See also page 16 here:

https://acoustics.ac.uk/wp-content/u...nn_History.pdf

stellaferox · 07-26-20, 03:13 PM

Thanks for this post. I don't know if this was the case in the beginning after the war. Anyway if you read up on how Scheppke could be sunk and Kretschmer was invisible on the surface until the dive alarm was (falsely) given. Then he showed up on ASDIC. Read the numbers in there somewhere.
Anyway ASDIC didn't work on surfaced U-boats of at periscope depth.

AKD · 07-27-20, 03:33 PM

ASDIC (searchlight type developed before war) could detect subs at periscope depth. It could also detect surface ships in particular conditions, although a surfaced U-Boat would be a small target, especially if bow-on.

ASDIC maximum range was against a submarine at periscope depth, typically given as 2,000-2,500 yards (in ideal conditions, perhaps out to 3,000-4,000 yards), although average detection range during the war was more like 1,300 yards. For a periscope depth target, contact could be maintained down to 250 yards or so, depending on signal-echo merge. Contact on deeper submarines would be lost at greater distances, which was countered with additional mid- to late-war tech like "Q" and "Sword" in illustration above that allowed ASDIC operators to maintain contact with deep subs down to the signal merge. However, ocean conditions could alter detection ranges based on depth significantly.

For the anecdote given, ASDIC performance varied hugely depending on ocean conditions and operator skill. Conditions can also alter radically during the course of a engagement due to depth charges and wakes.

06-13-20, 04:45 PM	#1
stellaferox Soundman Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 142 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	ASDIC modelling in game Hi, I was wondering how ASDIC has been modelled in the game. i noticed that even at periscope depth the escorts can ping you from distance. Historically the ASDIC signal couldn't get a ping shallower than 40 deg to the surface. Anyone with that information?

06-14-20, 12:54 PM	#3
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,892 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 0	Maybe the real life effective angle was 40 degrees with that type of ASDIC. But it could have been that the uboat would still hear some of it above that. Just not enough to reflect a solid detectable ping back to the escort. Every microphone or speaker has a certain fall-off directional emission pattern. The edges of the cone are usually defined where the intensity is halved (-3 dB) with reference to the maximum level. So with enough amplification it might still be heard outside of the angle. Also, with hindsight as they didn't know this yet at the time, if the sun has warmed up the upper layer of water the sound rays keep curving back to the surface and bounce down shallow again. Creating what is known as a surface layer. That would make the escort been heard by the uboat at longer distances than the escort would be able to effectively detect it. But I doubt this is modelled to real life in the game at the moment. Devs have made it clear that the finer touches on the game will be made later. __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads

07-27-20, 03:33 PM	#10
AKD Watch Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 22 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	ASDIC (searchlight type developed before war) could detect subs at periscope depth. It could also detect surface ships in particular conditions, although a surfaced U-Boat would be a small target, especially if bow-on. ASDIC maximum range was against a submarine at periscope depth, typically given as 2,000-2,500 yards (in ideal conditions, perhaps out to 3,000-4,000 yards), although average detection range during the war was more like 1,300 yards. For a periscope depth target, contact could be maintained down to 250 yards or so, depending on signal-echo merge. Contact on deeper submarines would be lost at greater distances, which was countered with additional mid- to late-war tech like "Q" and "Sword" in illustration above that allowed ASDIC operators to maintain contact with deep subs down to the signal merge. However, ocean conditions could alter detection ranges based on depth significantly. For the anecdote given, ASDIC performance varied hugely depending on ocean conditions and operator skill. Conditions can also alter radically during the course of a engagement due to depth charges and wakes. Last edited by AKD; 07-27-20 at 04:54 PM.

06-14-20, 11:46 AM	#2
Fidd XO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Blighty! Posts: 420 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Destroyers in game usually make a visual or hydrophones detection, and commence an attack-run pinging in case you dive. That they are pinging doesn't mean they've made an asdic detection. If you don't dive, (and they'll assume you havn't if they make no asdic detection, then you'll get hammered near the surface. If you do dive, them of course that'll make it easier for them to make an Asdic contact, at which point only considerable depth will give you the time to evade whilst the DC's come down.

06-14-20, 01:50 PM	#4
stellaferox Soundman Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 142 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	Thank you. I am aware of this. But even if I lie completely still for a longer time at periscope depth they are able to home in on me using ASDIC. That doesn't seem right.

06-15-20, 07:12 AM	#5
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,283 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	If you are at PD and an escort or merchant comes close your scope will be spotted. Also, even with the engines off, active sonar will pick you up if you come within range of a searching escort.

06-15-20, 03:26 PM	#7
stellaferox Soundman Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 142 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	Yes, I thought as much. It is clearly homing in on ASDIC and nothing else. Well, have to take that into account. Something for the devs to put on the wishlist. Realism for ASDIC....

07-26-20, 03:13 PM	#9
stellaferox Soundman Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 142 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	Thanks for this post. I don't know if this was the case in the beginning after the war. Anyway if you read up on how Scheppke could be sunk and Kretschmer was invisible on the surface until the dive alarm was (falsely) given. Then he showed up on ASDIC. Read the numbers in there somewhere. Anyway ASDIC didn't work on surfaced U-boats of at periscope depth.