Some thoughts on FOTRS mod

Wolfcat · 02-16-20, 07:36 AM

I have played this mod for a few days now. I love it. However, just a few after-play thoughts:

1. Torpedoes are way too weak. Most merchant ships take 3-4 hits to go down. I hit a 5000 ton freighter with 2 shots, but it sailed away without lose any speed. A heavy cruiser takes about 5 direct hits to go down. I thought Mk14 torpedoes are pretty powerful. A few Japanese carriers even went down with only 1 torpedo hit.

2. Need more dud torpedoes, especially for early war period. My first patrol, all torpedoes hit and explode on the mark. That's way too good to be true. I heard real war stories that one sub hit its target with 6 torpedoes, all duds. Always MK14 had a lot of mal-functions such running too deep etc.

3. Ship manual needs more info such as ship length and different aspects.

propbeanie · 02-16-20, 11:34 AM

The Mark 14 was one of the weakest torpedoes in use by a major war power at the time, being half as strong as a Japanese torpedo, and 3/4 as strong as a German. Where you hit the ship, and whether you are using impact or magnetic pistols will make a difference. With the magnetic, if you are too deep under the keel, it will look like a good detonation, but you actually cause minimal damage due to being too deep. One form of "dud" is that there is also the possibility of a "partial detonation" of the torpedo, where instead of a 500 pound's worth explosion, you only get a 350 pound's worth. The dud rate on them was turned down a while back due to complaints. The plan was to supply an add-in mod to up the anty there. Has not been done yet since we're still trying to nail down a "final product" with which to base future add-in mods. We don't want to have to be changing them too often when updating the base mod.

The ship's RecMan is one of the most frustrating things to mod, especially in light of the way Ubisoft set it up. The pictures are pulled from one file, while the data is from another. For whatever reason, the devs decided that ship max speed was more important than ship length, so that's what they pull for the display. lurker_hlb3 substituted the length of the ship for the speed, and changed the interface text to match, which works for targeting, but messes with other important aspects of the game, so for FotRSU, it is what it is. There is a pdf in the Support folder that has the data listed in it, though it is from the cfg files for each ship, which is not always accurate like the sim file would be, but is what the RecMan in-game uses. We claim it is part of the "fog of war", as some are fond of saying, which just "emulates" the effect of some of the bad or outdated data a commander would have to deal with in his recognition manuals. All countries were constantly changing the looks of their ships, even resorting to cutting the masts down, or adding height to them, to frustrate submarines' targeting of them. The camouflage paint schemes were another method of changing a ships "look" through a periscope.

We are glad you like the mod. Thanks for the comments.

Wolfcat · 02-16-20, 01:51 PM

U r welcome. This mod is great. The old base sh4 didn***8217;t even have Nagato BB which once served as the flag ship for combined fleet.

Yeah it would be great if we can have an optional mod to do something about dud torp. I mean if u enjoy sinking a lot of ships then dont use the mod if u want historically accurate war stories then enable the mod 100% success rate on Dec 13th 1941 for mk14 is really hard to accept

Macgregor the Hammer · 02-22-20, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by propbeanie

The Mark 14 was one of the weakest torpedoes in use by a major war power at the time, being half as strong as a Japanese torpedo, and 3/4 as strong as a German. Where you hit the ship, and whether you are using impact or magnetic pistols will make a difference. With the magnetic, if you are too deep under the keel, it will look like a good detonation, but you actually cause minimal damage due to being too deep. One form of "dud" is that there is also the possibility of a "partial detonation" of the torpedo, where instead of a 500 pound's worth explosion, you only get a 350 pound's worth. The dud rate on them was turned down a while back due to complaints. The plan was to supply an add-in mod to up the anty there. Has not been done yet since we're still trying to nail down a "final product" with which to base future add-in mods. We don't want to have to be changing them too often when updating the base mod.

The ship's RecMan is one of the most frustrating things to mod, especially in light of the way Ubisoft set it up. The pictures are pulled from one file, while the data is from another. For whatever reason, the devs decided that ship max speed was more important than ship length, so that's what they pull for the display. lurker_hlb3 substituted the length of the ship for the speed, and changed the interface text to match, which works for targeting, but messes with other important aspects of the game, so for FotRSU, it is what it is. There is a pdf in the Support folder that has the data listed in it, though it is from the cfg files for each ship, which is not always accurate like the sim file would be, but is what the RecMan in-game uses. We claim it is part of the "fog of war", as some are fond of saying, which just "emulates" the effect of some of the bad or outdated data a commander would have to deal with in his recognition manuals. All countries were constantly changing the looks of their ships, even resorting to cutting the masts down, or adding height to them, to frustrate submarines' targeting of them. The camouflage paint schemes were another method of changing a ships "look" through a periscope.

We are glad you like the mod. Thanks for the comments.

With all this being said about the Mark 14, is the flawed impulse trigger modeled and is there a 'hysteresis' window for depth inaccuracy? I'm thinking the algorithm would look something like >1ft of depth and <10ft of depth inaccuracy with some kind of random number generated at impact time. I wasn't sure how all the gurus of FOTRSU put this together. For that reason, I have using impact pistol with good success. A civilian freighter doesn't have the damage control capabilities that a military ship has and 2-3 torpedo's starts a capsize.

Thought's

propbeanie · 02-22-20, 02:54 PM

Between some of the "beta" versions and the final "beta" v0.90, the "dud" and other anomalies were turned-down some, due to complaints of the rate being entirely too accurate...

which it was. You might go out and shoot four torpedoes at a ship, set to magnetic, knowing that at least two of them would fail in one form or another. Sometimes, all four would fail. I had an early Gar boat, and encountered a Task Force one time, with a couple of CV in the middle. I spent half of a day maneuvering to get into position on them, to strike at night, succeeded at that, but the entire time, the weather kept worsening. Then I spent an hour quietly breaching the screen of DD escorts, came up to periscope depth, and let fly 3 torpedoes each at each of the CV, being mindful of my orders to utilize the Mark 6 exploder's magnetic function and to let it do the work... All six torpedoes "dudded" in various fashion, with the 6th detonating just after launch, causing irreparable damage to the bow of the submarine, making it impossible to then avoid the DD escorts and their attack. Another 2 pre-matured after about a 400 yard run, which would be about the arming distance. One actually looked like it blew-up under the first CV, but it actually detonated about 100 yards from it, after reviewing the "Playback" later. The other two under-ran the targets, passing directly under the centers of each of the CV... very frustrating, but man, was it fun... until my career ended of course... The Gar was lost on its first patrol there, roughly 20 minutes after that first "pre-mature" went off...

These settings are in a configuration file, and can have any number of issues incorporated that the game has available. You cannot add new functionality, but they do have the pre-mature detonations, which can be somewhat controlled by weather - I think if is wave height, so the rougher the sea, the greater the chance. The shallower you set them, the greater the chance. You can also control that behavior by date, such that early in the war, the chance is greater, later in the war, it is lowered, but still at unacceptable levels. You can also have the impact pistol fail based upon the angle you are hitting the target at, based on percentages also, and can also be controlled by date. Then the depth thing is similarly configurable, by percentage by date. These variable are controllable for each torpedo, and includes the circle-runner chance, of which I have experienced my fair-share of... One "dud" that did not explode upon impact, one that hit me in spite of my best efforts to avoid, incurring significant damage, but not sinking me, and another that sank be outright inside of five minutes... We did make it to the surface, but not for long... anyway

If you experiment in RFB (Real Fleet Boats), especially v2.x, you will find a plethora of examples each time you go out early in the war, of the various ways the torps fail. We didn't have quite as many variables in early versions of FotRSU, but still had enough to aggravate the users, so it was turned down for better playability initially. That said, we have the original way of doing it, sitting ready as an add-in mod. This is not to say that there are no duds in FotRSU. There are. The "odds" are turned down though. We hope to have the "stable" base version of FotRSU with the next release, but that all depends upon time and testing, as to how long that will be. Then further add-ins should trickle out.

s7rikeback · 02-22-20, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfcat

U r welcome. This mod is great. The old base sh4 didn***8217;t even have Nagato BB which once served as the flag ship for combined fleet.

Yeah it would be great if we can have an optional mod to do something about dud torp. I mean if u enjoy sinking a lot of ships then dont use the mod if u want historically accurate war stories then enable the mod 100% success rate on Dec 13th 1941 for mk14 is really hard to accept

Thanks for the great feedback, but can I ask if you have selected dud torpedoes in the options, before you started your game?

propbeanie · 02-22-20, 09:32 PM

Good point s7rikeback, ~and~, there are two Options screens. The one of the main menu is for the Single Missions and Quick Patrols (as well as the Multi-Missions) available on the Main Menu also. The career side of things however, has another Options screen, found by clicking on the Radio in the Captain's Office, prior to going out on Patrol. If you forget it, you'll have to wait until the next time you are in that office as noted in another post somewhere around here).

The German Captain's Office would use the file cabinet by the exit door on the right-hand wall - which has a different layout than above...

Wolfcat · 02-23-20, 05:33 AM

@s7rikeback
Yes, dud torpedo option is always checked. For all my sh3, sh4 sh5 games, the only option is unchecked is external view. I played 3 patrols only got 1 dud so far. Btw, I figure out a way to make torpedoes more powerful. You need set deeper depth. I usually use 15ish for large merchants and usually takes only 1 hit to sink one.

Btw, do historic battles work in FOTRS? I was trying to catch a Japanese carrier during the battle of coral sea. But search the area and didn't find any japanese ships.

propbeanie · 02-23-20, 11:38 PM

"Historical" battles in FotRSU do work, including the Battle of the Coral Sea. However, you can't be in certain areas at certain times, else some of the groups won't spawn. Finding them can also be difficult, just by virtue of the size of the area, and radars were few and far between at the time. Most of the CV groups were capable of 30 knots, and you can't get above 20. Also, the "accuracy" of the groups' plots are not the best, and some of the timings will be "off" due to game idiosyncrasies... "Attempted Historical Representation" (

) might be a more accurate description of the "Battle" files.

02-16-20, 07:36 AM	#1
Wolfcat Chief Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 325 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	Some thoughts on FOTRS mod I have played this mod for a few days now. I love it. However, just a few after-play thoughts: 1. Torpedoes are way too weak. Most merchant ships take 3-4 hits to go down. I hit a 5000 ton freighter with 2 shots, but it sailed away without lose any speed. A heavy cruiser takes about 5 direct hits to go down. I thought Mk14 torpedoes are pretty powerful. A few Japanese carriers even went down with only 1 torpedo hit. 2. Need more dud torpedoes, especially for early war period. My first patrol, all torpedoes hit and explode on the mark. That's way too good to be true. I heard real war stories that one sub hit its target with 6 torpedoes, all duds. Always MK14 had a lot of mal-functions such running too deep etc. 3. Ship manual needs more info such as ship length and different aspects.

02-16-20, 11:34 AM	#2
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,743 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	The Mark 14 was one of the weakest torpedoes in use by a major war power at the time, being half as strong as a Japanese torpedo, and 3/4 as strong as a German. Where you hit the ship, and whether you are using impact or magnetic pistols will make a difference. With the magnetic, if you are too deep under the keel, it will look like a good detonation, but you actually cause minimal damage due to being too deep. One form of "dud" is that there is also the possibility of a "partial detonation" of the torpedo, where instead of a 500 pound's worth explosion, you only get a 350 pound's worth. The dud rate on them was turned down a while back due to complaints. The plan was to supply an add-in mod to up the anty there. Has not been done yet since we're still trying to nail down a "final product" with which to base future add-in mods. We don't want to have to be changing them too often when updating the base mod. The ship's RecMan is one of the most frustrating things to mod, especially in light of the way Ubisoft set it up. The pictures are pulled from one file, while the data is from another. For whatever reason, the devs decided that ship max speed was more important than ship length, so that's what they pull for the display. lurker_hlb3 substituted the length of the ship for the speed, and changed the interface text to match, which works for targeting, but messes with other important aspects of the game, so for FotRSU, it is what it is. There is a pdf in the Support folder that has the data listed in it, though it is from the cfg files for each ship, which is not always accurate like the sim file would be, but is what the RecMan in-game uses. We claim it is part of the "fog of war", as some are fond of saying, which just "emulates" the effect of some of the bad or outdated data a commander would have to deal with in his recognition manuals. All countries were constantly changing the looks of their ships, even resorting to cutting the masts down, or adding height to them, to frustrate submarines' targeting of them. The camouflage paint schemes were another method of changing a ships "look" through a periscope. We are glad you like the mod. Thanks for the comments. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

02-22-20, 02:54 PM	#5
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,743 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	Between some of the "beta" versions and the final "beta" v0.90, the "dud" and other anomalies were turned-down some, due to complaints of the rate being entirely too accurate... which it was. You might go out and shoot four torpedoes at a ship, set to magnetic, knowing that at least two of them would fail in one form or another. Sometimes, all four would fail. I had an early Gar boat, and encountered a Task Force one time, with a couple of CV in the middle. I spent half of a day maneuvering to get into position on them, to strike at night, succeeded at that, but the entire time, the weather kept worsening. Then I spent an hour quietly breaching the screen of DD escorts, came up to periscope depth, and let fly 3 torpedoes each at each of the CV, being mindful of my orders to utilize the Mark 6 exploder's magnetic function and to let it do the work... All six torpedoes "dudded" in various fashion, with the 6th detonating just after launch, causing irreparable damage to the bow of the submarine, making it impossible to then avoid the DD escorts and their attack. Another 2 pre-matured after about a 400 yard run, which would be about the arming distance. One actually looked like it blew-up under the first CV, but it actually detonated about 100 yards from it, after reviewing the "Playback" later. The other two under-ran the targets, passing directly under the centers of each of the CV... very frustrating, but man, was it fun... until my career ended of course... The Gar was lost on its first patrol there, roughly 20 minutes after that first "pre-mature" went off... These settings are in a configuration file, and can have any number of issues incorporated that the game has available. You cannot add new functionality, but they do have the pre-mature detonations, which can be somewhat controlled by weather - I think if is wave height, so the rougher the sea, the greater the chance. The shallower you set them, the greater the chance. You can also control that behavior by date, such that early in the war, the chance is greater, later in the war, it is lowered, but still at unacceptable levels. You can also have the impact pistol fail based upon the angle you are hitting the target at, based on percentages also, and can also be controlled by date. Then the depth thing is similarly configurable, by percentage by date. These variable are controllable for each torpedo, and includes the circle-runner chance, of which I have experienced my fair-share of... One "dud" that did not explode upon impact, one that hit me in spite of my best efforts to avoid, incurring significant damage, but not sinking me, and another that sank be outright inside of five minutes... We did make it to the surface, but not for long... anyway If you experiment in RFB (Real Fleet Boats), especially v2.x, you will find a plethora of examples each time you go out early in the war, of the various ways the torps fail. We didn't have quite as many variables in early versions of FotRSU, but still had enough to aggravate the users, so it was turned down for better playability initially. That said, we have the original way of doing it, sitting ready as an add-in mod. This is not to say that there are no duds in FotRSU. There are. The "odds" are turned down though. We hope to have the "stable" base version of FotRSU with the next release, but that all depends upon time and testing, as to how long that will be. Then further add-ins should trickle out. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

02-22-20, 09:32 PM	#7
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,743 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	Good point s7rikeback, ~and~, there are two Options screens. The one of the main menu is for the Single Missions and Quick Patrols (as well as the Multi-Missions) available on the Main Menu also. The career side of things however, has another Options screen, found by clicking on the Radio in the Captain's Office, prior to going out on Patrol. If you forget it, you'll have to wait until the next time you are in that office as noted in another post somewhere around here). The German Captain's Office would use the file cabinet by the exit door on the right-hand wall - which has a different layout than above... __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

02-23-20, 11:38 PM	#9
propbeanie CTD - it's not just a job Join Date: May 2016 Location: One hour from Music City USA! Posts: 9,743 Downloads: 439 Uploads: 2	"Historical" battles in FotRSU do work, including the Battle of the Coral Sea. However, you can't be in certain areas at certain times, else some of the groups won't spawn. Finding them can also be difficult, just by virtue of the size of the area, and radars were few and far between at the time. Most of the CV groups were capable of 30 knots, and you can't get above 20. Also, the "accuracy" of the groups' plots are not the best, and some of the timings will be "off" due to game idiosyncrasies... "Attempted Historical Representation" ( ) might be a more accurate description of the "Battle" files. __________________ "...and bollocks to the naysayer/s" - Jimbuna

02-16-20, 01:51 PM	#3
Wolfcat Chief Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 325 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	U r welcome. This mod is great. The old base sh4 didn***8217;t even have Nagato BB which once served as the flag ship for combined fleet. Yeah it would be great if we can have an optional mod to do something about dud torp. I mean if u enjoy sinking a lot of ships then dont use the mod if u want historically accurate war stories then enable the mod 100% success rate on Dec 13th 1941 for mk14 is really hard to accept

02-23-20, 05:33 AM	#8
Wolfcat Chief Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 325 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	@s7rikeback Yes, dud torpedo option is always checked. For all my sh3, sh4 sh5 games, the only option is unchecked is external view. I played 3 patrols only got 1 dud so far. Btw, I figure out a way to make torpedoes more powerful. You need set deeper depth. I usually use 15ish for large merchants and usually takes only 1 hit to sink one. Btw, do historic battles work in FOTRS? I was trying to catch a Japanese carrier during the battle of coral sea. But search the area and didn't find any japanese ships.